On behalf of everyone at KeSPA I would like to thank you all for your continued support of StarCraft II Proleague this past season. As we continue to try and improve our league we would love to hear your feedback on the 2015 season.
Please let me know what you liked most about this season or what you wish was improved upon for the next season.
We hope you enjoyed the 2015 season and lets make the 2016 season even better!
edit #1: Thank you for your feedback. I have read over all of your suggestions and we will work on improving next season with your suggestions in mind.
I hope you continue to support StarCraft II Proleague and the Korean StarCraft II scene.
Format: Consider bringing back Bo7? More diverse match ups and more possibility to show case builds and less prominent players. I also would prefer more rounds but that's mostly a scheduling issue.
Production values: Everything looked good and the quality of the streams were great, except for the red and green squares that were used later on in the year for player map wins that looked horribly out of place.
Player interaction: Please consider better fleshed out segments of player interviews to fill the gap between games, what you have currently is good but just expand on it.
English and other language streams: Consider allowing the players or coaches address the foreign community more directly if possible in interviews and other means, more support for the other language streams if possible.
On October 12 2015 16:44 ZAiNs wrote: PLEASE bring back the game timer. It really makes proleague, the highest level of SC2 in the world, much worse to watch.
Unfortunately we removed the game timer to stop some types of e-Sports gambling.
I loved the League, I just wish you would start using your own maps again. Seeing crazy stuff like Neo Arkanoid and great maps like King Sejong for the first time made me fall in love with PL in the first place.
On October 12 2015 16:51 Shkudde wrote: I loved the League, I just wish you would start using your own maps again. Seeing crazy stuff like Neo Arkanoid and great maps like King Sejong for the first time made me fall in love with PL in the first place.
Wait, those are maps made by PL? They were FANTASTIC!!!
They really should use those over the horrible map pool from Blizzard...
On October 12 2015 16:51 Shkudde wrote: I loved the League, I just wish you would start using your own maps again. Seeing crazy stuff like Neo Arkanoid and great maps like King Sejong for the first time made me fall in love with PL in the first place.
Wait, those are maps made by PL? They were FANTASTIC!!!
They really should use those over the horrible map pool from Blizzard...
Not necessarily made by Proleague, but first adopted and used by it. Proleague has good taste in maps.
Anyway, my only suggestion would be to use all-kill format more. Maybe do two rounds in all-kill format and 2 rounds in proleague format. Or maybe alternate weeks between formats or something. We never get to see all-kill anymore outside of playoffs and it's fun.
First let me thank you and everyone involved in Proleague - it's my favourite StarCraft 2 competition and such a critical part of the scene!
Format was great as always (Bo5 or Bo7, that is up to you ), please keep the Proleague format. Allkill/Winners League in playoffs is okay, but I really prefer the PL-format for the regular rounds. It's more about the team than one star player carrying everything. In PL-format you need at least two.
Production value was great and there was interesting filler content (bring back 10 questions 10 answers maybe? That would be great!). Having english subtitles for filler videos would be great as well of course, it adds a lot of value to the english stream. I like that every player got to choose their own intro music. One point I'd like to add: please try to use the same, fitting ingame-colours if possible (Jin Air always green, SKT always orange etc.) - of course stuff like red vs. orange has to be averted, but it always bugs me to see SKT in blue or something like that. It just doesn't feel right. :D
A really important point for me: I hope that you consider using self-made maps again - the KeSPA mapping team has such a great history of creating excellent maps and bringing new ideas to the table (hello, King Sejong Station!). Being dependent on Blizzard's vision of how maps should look like is... not so cool, to say the least.
On October 12 2015 16:51 Shkudde wrote: I loved the League, I just wish you would start using your own maps again. Seeing crazy stuff like Neo Arkanoid and great maps like King Sejong for the first time made me fall in love with PL in the first place.
Wait, those are maps made by PL? They were FANTASTIC!!!
They really should use those over the horrible map pool from Blizzard...
You can do whatever you want but if you want WCS points you have to use Blizzard maps.
This season of Proleague was great, however I do have a few suggestions.
Like a above user said, I'd love to see Proleague go back to BO7, I think it requires the teams to have more depth, makes for more exciting matches and allows the rookies to see more play time.
I'd also love to see a return of player interviews and team house tours. 2013 was my favorite season partially because of this, we had so, so many interviews with the likes of INnoVation, Flash, JangBi, Shine, sOs, Stork, etc so we got emphasize with our favorite players.
I'd also love some more map experimentation next season. 2013 was, again my favorite season because we had a huge number of cool new maps and the games were very different and, in a lot of ways fun. I'm not saying have as many new maps per round as the 2013 season had, but at least have 1-2 new maps per round. KeSPA map makers are also extremely good, we had gems like Neo Planet S and King Sejong Station make it into the ladder, I'd love to have more of those to play with.
Last but definitely not least, bring back mind time!
All-kill is the most entertaining format of the team games in StarCraft. I don't understand why you don't use it in regular season? Of couse, it will make opportunity for some teams to use 1 skilled player, but other team can make a snipers for him. If you will use BO7 all kill, you will create a star-level players for every team and will use them for advertising.
You need to surprise people. Not only by pizza who came to arena, but for the guys, who watch games in internet. You can try to gift branded stuff, but it's not give you huge increase in viewers. So you can try to give players prizes for "combo" series of win in all kill format or give bounty prize for guys who beat team captain. Every team have a captain, but their role means nothing on video, they need to represent team and be the huge part of the game.
Also, you can play with maps format. Maybe maps can be choose by random for the next match up, to make some fun.
One more thing. As StarCraft fan, who played in different era and watching Korea scene since ∽ 2000-2001, i want to know more about main persons of the game. Who they are now? You see audience interests in Nada life, but you can use more players for your ads. Find a Garimto, IntoTheRain, Boxer, V-Gundam, Silent_Control and etc. Use them as the part of SC legacy, show the respect to the guys, who spent years for the game and now gone unknown.
Not sure what other's think but maybe we could have some Archon Mode games integrated? Proleague IS a team league after all and Archon Mode would be a pretty good way to give exposure to less popular names. It might be a stretch but maybe Ace Matches would be played in Archon Mode or maybe the first game of the Bo7 would be in Archon Mode.
Besides that I think it'd be cool to have more interviews (either Live or Pre-recorded). I'd love to hear players smack talk each other before games.
On October 12 2015 16:51 Shkudde wrote: I loved the League, I just wish you would start using your own maps again. Seeing crazy stuff like Neo Arkanoid and great maps like King Sejong for the first time made me fall in love with PL in the first place.
Wait, those are maps made by PL? They were FANTASTIC!!!
They really should use those over the horrible map pool from Blizzard...
You can do whatever you want but if you want WCS points you have to use Blizzard maps.
Blizzard really should let the system that worked for over 10 years alone without spoiling it ... KeSPA proved its success in this field and it should be handling all the Korean stuff (Including the GSL and SSL). They know how to handle it.
spl is pretty good now, but i hope there will be a SWL in next year's proleague, all-kill format makes matches more intersting and exciting. also i think proleague should build their own maps, because spl is one of the most high-level league, the maps they create is good and interesting(plants, king sejung station, etc.) For stream, i hope we can see some first personal shoot of game, we can learner some skill from progamer and we can be closer with match. last, thanks for SPL, there were a lots of memorable games and moments. hope SPL will be better in next year!
As others have said, bo7 would be awesome in the regular season. I understand if it can't be done because of time constraints though.
Another thing is for me personally is the schedule; I think the 2014 season had a nicer schedule because of the Sunday games. Now I often can't watch live at all since both days are during the week! Then again I'm sure there are people who like the current schedule more.
Like other people in the thread have said, more english filler content such as 10Q10A, recorded interviews and team house tours would be amazing.
Possibly most importantly, a HUGE thumbs up for the idea of using and experimenting with more custom, Kespa made maps! Not only do they give fun games (especially in Proleague where players prepare so specifically for the map) but it also helps the entire scene by showcasing maps that could later be adopted to WCS and other tournaments.
Anyway, even though there is always room for improvement, these are only relatively small things. Proleague was amazing this year and I'm sure it will be amazing in 2016 as well!
Things I like: Caster Predictions Production Quality
Things I wish could happen: BO7 10Q, 10A with English Translations. They gave players so much more personality Encourage more ceremonies! More map variety (which to be fair, is pretty good for proleague but can be taken up a notch)
I'm not sure about the all-kill format. I think if it happens, it can be like a 1 week/round thing. I prefer regular proleague format but some variety would be nice.
I would love for teams to be more balanced. In terms of who plays on who and how many players are allowed in a squad. Instead of (using as an example) SKT T1 having 10 players and we only see 7 of them during the season. How about we put a limit on a squad size. Squad limit is 8 players for example and that helps all teams getting a fair shout at the market of talent out there. No one wants a Prime team in a league getting beat every round going 0W 6L that isn't fun and isn't entertaining.
If you want the PL to be the English Version of the premier league as it always has been compared to in Korea, then you need to start extending the quality through out all the teams who compete. If Prime had a few more players and made itself more competitive, last season would have been pretty good if you trimmed SKT T1 down a peg. We had KT finishing outside play offs in a round, CJ winning a round etcetc. Even a SBENU reaching play offs for end of round.
So that is my only negative criticism of Pro League. Other than no structure in terms of Squad Size and competitiveness from top to bottom there is nothing else i can critique, it is perfect.
On October 12 2015 16:44 ZAiNs wrote: PLEASE bring back the game timer. It really makes proleague, the highest level of SC2 in the world, much worse to watch.
Unfortunately we removed the game timer to stop some types of e-Sports gambling.
I get that spot-fixing is a thing, but I honestly don't understand how removing the game timer fixes that. It's not like gamblers don't have stopwatches - hell, in the US, people bet on the length of the Super Bowl national anthem, and I'm pretty sure that's not officially timed.
But more importantly, I definitely have to add on to the requests for 10Q10A, or some kind of similar non-game content. Getting to know the players is crucial, and of course there should be some fun to go along with it.
Secons, now that the next season will be on Legacy of the Void, please consider using Archon mode like when you had 2v2 in BW. That would make it very easy to expand to a bo7 from the current bo5. Keep the current PL format in the regular seasons, or maybe have one of 7 weeks and all-kill week.
However I'd like if you had more content for the viewers online, considering we are the majority of the viewers. English texting on the videos and more interractions with the progamers would be fun.
Thanks for this year and good luck with the next one
All kill bo7 format with some refreshing original maps (to disrupt Ace players with some special little bit cheesy builds by a weaker players) And thank you for whole thing, good luck have fun in the future : )
bo7 would be great. also what about running an up and coming team league online cup so teams that are not well known can get recognised and maybe a small prize and a invite to the proleague next season?
I absolutely loved last season of Proleague. Sadly I cannot watch anything live, cuz I have to work during the work. At least one day of Broadcast on Saturday or Sunday would make me incredibly happy.
Got a few minor things I'd like/ love to see:
1. Plz consider using the Gameheart UI, to me it is far superior to all the other Observer-UIs. 2. If it is possible, some more tricasts on the english stream. 3. Bo7 has more depth, so that would be awesome. 4. Own maps. Loved the first Proleague SC2 season with your custom maps, would be cool to see some more in the future.
First off this season of PL was great, I really love the competition and tension between the teams.
On the English stream it has been mostly good this year, barring problems with mics and missing observing PC for the casters on occasion. The casters are great, the quality is good and the games are fun.
As for possible improvements I would say the roosters and lineups of the teams are the main thing that could be improved upon. I understand that's not things you guys normally meddle with but somethings you do have the power to alter. I'm talking about things like Prime -_- their games were rarely exciting and always a letdown. That kind of bottomfeeder really drops the overall tension and excitement for PL. Also varying players so that we get to see new talent or less known players would be great. BO7 would help with this, alternatively giving the teams some other incitement to not play the same 4 players over and over. Core 3 players is fine, even 4 core as long as you mix it up once in a while. We want to see top SC2 action but we also enjoy seeing new players enter the scene.
On October 12 2015 17:34 Pandemona wrote: I would love for teams to be more balanced. In terms of who plays on who and how many players are allowed in a squad. Instead of (using as an example) SKT T1 having 10 players and we only see 7 of them during the season. How about we put a limit on a squad size. Squad limit is 8 players for example and that helps all teams getting a fair shout at the market of talent out there. No one wants a Prime team in a league getting beat every round going 0W 6L that isn't fun and isn't entertaining.
Thank you, and good luck in 2016
I think it's not about Proleague, it's team problem. If Proleague will make teams 8-max, it isn't help Prime to get 8 good players, just make top teams life harder. They give a chance to 2 more players and after this limit they will not do it.
If we want more competition, we need to change finance model of the teams. Look how NBA is working.
On October 12 2015 17:34 Pandemona wrote: I would love for teams to be more balanced. In terms of who plays on who and how many players are allowed in a squad. Instead of (using as an example) SKT T1 having 10 players and we only see 7 of them during the season. How about we put a limit on a squad size. Squad limit is 8 players for example and that helps all teams getting a fair shout at the market of talent out there. No one wants a Prime team in a league getting beat every round going 0W 6L that isn't fun and isn't entertaining.
Thank you, and good luck in 2016
I think it's not about Proleague, it's team problem. If Proleague will make teams 8-max, it isn't help Prime to get 8 good players, just make top teams life harder. They give a chance to 2 more players and after this limit they will not do it.
If we want more competition, we need to change finance model of the teams. Look how NBA is working.
It will mean more pro gamers "available" in the market? If SKT had to chop 2 of their players, 2 players become available for Prime to take etc? Pretty sure likes of Impact are not going to be paid any differently to the likes of Creator etc so i can't see a money issue anywhere.
Prime aren't the most funded team in the league i know but im sure they can afford to pay for a team of 8 players if they had the opportunity too. See when they got Myungsik etc, but he left for Sbenu later on due to issues i don't know the guy is strange xD
Production was mediocre this year: - terrible proleague intro, it was worse than last years one - graphical layout felt mediocre, was worse than gsl's one , although gsl's one has gotten better - stage lights didnt feel as cool as it did on OGN where spotvgames would just literally make it cycle through the lights
As for the Finals: - Ive no idea why there was a sudden change in music backgrounds , felt like keeping it consistent would have been better. - video intros of the players, super bright colours on a greyscale of the team really looks horrific in a design point of view.
Other than that, awesome job for this years proleague! Cant wait for next years one!
Thanks for Proleague, best competition so far for me. The production of this season was great but just one thing, I think you can improve the introduction before games. Instead of simple pictures of players, you can make a little movie like you did in 12-13 season or like OGN & MBC did before
A minor suggestion - people keep mentioning the KeSPA Amateur leagues that are running, but they're never streamed / televised. How about taking the winners and putting them in a showmatch just before PL starts maybe once a month?
It would be nice to see more new talent playing, and I'm sure it'd be fun for them to play in front of a crowd
Proleague was great this year, the things I'd like to see are BO7, more players interactions/interviews and custom maps. No all-kill format please, one of the reason I like PL much more than the other team league is because the format actually showcase the depth of the team and reduce the impact of super star players.
It's bothering me that death effects are turned off.
Also the missing timer of course. I don't understand how someone can deem it acceptable to remove an integral feature for everyone to put up a minor obstacle for a small group of people.
One thing that might be more doable with ProLeague, if I understand some of the SC:BW ones, would be a return to Winner's League for a round.
Obviously, the current format is Fixed Picks for the main round then Winner Stays for Playoffs. Maybe do something like Round 1 is Fixed Picks through the round & playoffs, then Round 2 is Winner Stays for the entire round & playoffs. Then, if we're on 4 Rounds again, go back to the "normal" settings for Round 3 & 4.
I feel the Winner Stays format allows for better one-day storylines and lesser known players getting a chance to really make a name for themselves. Though with the GSTL days, running it constantly really does get a little stale after a while, especially if a few players are super dominant in the metagame.
Proleague is pretty good and last season was really exciting thanks for all your have done.
I would love to see bo7 for all proleagues games, that's way more interesting to watch because more players and more strategies for the coaches. Maybe the possibilty to play more all kill format, that's really nice to see a player who can kill all the opponents !
First and foremost - Great Season this year. Really pleased with the structure and production.
I think BO5 is fine for the regular season, however I think a BO7 (All-Kill for two rounds and Regular format for two rounds) for the post round playoffs would be a nice touch.
In addition to that, do you think it's possible to have a mid season special like you did in the 12-13 season? See the guys play with other team's players and coaches was really cool.
Lastly, please relax the penalty points with typing GG in Hangul as opposed to English. It's a bit harsh to be penalised for that.
On October 12 2015 17:34 Pandemona wrote: I would love for teams to be more balanced. In terms of who plays on who and how many players are allowed in a squad. Instead of (using as an example) SKT T1 having 10 players and we only see 7 of them during the season. How about we put a limit on a squad size. Squad limit is 8 players for example and that helps all teams getting a fair shout at the market of talent out there. No one wants a Prime team in a league getting beat every round going 0W 6L that isn't fun and isn't entertaining.
Thank you, and good luck in 2016
I think it's not about Proleague, it's team problem. If Proleague will make teams 8-max, it isn't help Prime to get 8 good players, just make top teams life harder. They give a chance to 2 more players and after this limit they will not do it.
If we want more competition, we need to change finance model of the teams. Look how NBA is working.
It will mean more pro gamers "available" in the market? If SKT had to chop 2 of their players, 2 players become available for Prime to take etc? Pretty sure likes of Impact are not going to be paid any differently to the likes of Creator etc so i can't see a money issue anywhere.
Prime aren't the most funded team in the league i know but im sure they can afford to pay for a team of 8 players if they had the opportunity too. See when they got Myungsik etc, but he left for Sbenu later on due to issues i don't know the guy is strange xD
If you have 8 teams of 8 players each, that's a maximum amount of 64 players in Proleague. This year, 76 players were eligible to play at the start of Round 4. Even if you take out partners or players who left since then, there were still over 64. In that case a bunch of players would end up teamless (since there are always really good players that aren't on a Proleague team, like Creator). Worst case capping Proleague teams to 8 forcefully retires some players. That seems somewhat excessive.
Pretty much agree with what others said, return to Bo7 would be great as would be more map diversity. An all-kill round in round 2 or round 3 would be a nice touch aswell.
I think proleague was really good this year! Here are some of my thoughts:
- The format was basically perfect, in my opinion it needs no change. It was both all-kill format and the standard proleague format, but the proleague format gets featured a bit more, which it should.
- It's great having a free 1080p stream on azubu.
- Keep showing the recent worker kill count. Some tournaments don't display this and it really bugs me.
- The casting was mediocre. Wolf constantly says things that are not correct, he should really work on his game knowledge or switch to being a pure play-by-play caster. He should really stop predicting fights/situations because he does it all the time and is often wrong. On the other hand he can be a good hype-caster. Valdes is okay, he's not bad but he's not great either. The same goes for Moonglade, he has good knowledge of the game, but his general casting skills are meh. Anyway none of them are turning me off from watching, which is the most important part. I watch for the games and the players, not for the casters.
Proleague is, by far, the most entertaining league to watch for me. So thanks for all you've done thus far!
That said, there are a couple of things I would love to see improved:
-Bring back the game time. It is so incredibly important for me to understand and appreciate all the little ways in which a players gets ahead in the game or hits a very specific timing. Starcraft 2 is all about those small things and not being able to appreciate them due to a lack of information is just not great. I have elaborated in a different thread why removing the game time will not get rid of any gambling and will just punish the viewer instead, which is something that you really should not do. It is sad that you value the minimal chance to stop a tiny amount of gambling higher than the entertainment of the viewer. -Introduce exciting new maps. You don't have to go Arkanoid-level crazy with them, only 2-3 experimental maps per round would be more than enough to shake things up. We already see the same maps over and over and over again in every foreign tournament, in every league, in every cup. Proleague does not have to follow the rules of a WCS tournament so use that to distinguish yourself and offer something special to the viewer. -Include one 2v2 or Archon mode game in your Proleague matches. Not only is it great for people to see something radical different on a more regular basis, it also gives lesser known players and rookies a better chance to perform on stage instead of sitting on the bench of the team house all the time. Aside from that, 2v2 is a personal favorite of mine, I just love high level 2v2 and it was what I was mostly focused on when I played more regularly in the past. -Tied to that, of course, is the extension of the matches to a Bo7 format. Less volatile matches, less focus on ace players, more play time for rookies and, most importantly, more space to experiment with things like new maps, 2v2 or archon mode. -Either proper subtitles for the short shows between the games or good filler content. Are there no Koreans that speak english good enough to make a tour through a team house while commentating and interacting with the players/coaches/staff? Maybe let the english casters do it, their Korean should probably be good enough to get by. In any case, more stuff about the players that shows how they are behind the scenes when not performing on stage. That was one of the things I liked about the 2013 season... -Oh, and please don't change the format to All-Kill... The way it is now is perfect, I love the Proleague format.
Get rid of the stupid 5 years between free agency rule and allow Parting, Rain, Fantasy and Soulkey to compete in Proleague again. It was idiotic having GSL winners and finalists not being able to play Proleague.
All in all, a great year and thanks for that. Heres some feedback:
Like someone said earlier I too would hope more exposure to the amateur leagues. This would start building players careers at an earlier stage and give us an opportunity to spot rising talent. Are there yearly KeSPA drafts still going on? I might be wrong, but I don't think I've seen results of such drafts since 2013.
In the start of the year there were problems with the ingame sound for the English stream. They lasted for over a month and it felt like nobody paid attention to the English broadcast or took notice of people trying to make the problem known. A clear line of communication might have sped up fixing the problem a little. As a current example, the English set4 of for the finals is accidentally set to private and cant be viewed. Someone said about this in the ESportsTV YouTube page's discussion with no answer and at the time of posting the video is still not viewable. Would a tweet have better luck to actually reach someone with power to address problems?
A small thing, but I'm bit of a perfectionist: The team logos have often been badly scaled with jagged edges. Makes the UI look rushed.
Special thanks for the first person views during the season. Please continue those!
No real complaints about anything in this proleague season, it felt pretty well done. It would be great to have MORE of it. Specifically reverting the format back to bo7 as many others have suggested in this thread would be a welcome change. More days of broadcast / matches per week / rounds per season would be awesome as well. Current format has 1 match per week per team, with 4 rounds of play, 2 broadcast days per week; moving it up to 2 matches per week per team, 6 rounds of play, and 4 broadcast days per week(or some combination thereof) would be an improvement to me.
Broadcast quality seemed fine, and it was nice that it was streamed to both azubu and twitch in the case that one or the other had problems. Casting could use a little more in the way of color commentary / entertainment but it obviously is not a priority. I did like having moonglade added (mostly)fulltime this season.
On October 12 2015 18:30 thecrazymunchkin wrote: A minor suggestion - people keep mentioning the KeSPA Amateur leagues that are running, but they're never streamed / televised. How about taking the winners and putting them in a showmatch just before PL starts maybe once a month?
It would be nice to see more new talent playing, and I'm sure it'd be fun for them to play in front of a crowd
Thats good. Take a amateur player, give him chance to shine and play TV game vs PRO. It can be fun, because everyone have a chance for glory.
On October 12 2015 17:34 Pandemona wrote: I would love for teams to be more balanced. In terms of who plays on who and how many players are allowed in a squad. Instead of (using as an example) SKT T1 having 10 players and we only see 7 of them during the season. How about we put a limit on a squad size. Squad limit is 8 players for example and that helps all teams getting a fair shout at the market of talent out there. No one wants a Prime team in a league getting beat every round going 0W 6L that isn't fun and isn't entertaining.
Thank you, and good luck in 2016
I think it's not about Proleague, it's team problem. If Proleague will make teams 8-max, it isn't help Prime to get 8 good players, just make top teams life harder. They give a chance to 2 more players and after this limit they will not do it.
If we want more competition, we need to change finance model of the teams. Look how NBA is working.
It will mean more pro gamers "available" in the market? If SKT had to chop 2 of their players, 2 players become available for Prime to take etc? Pretty sure likes of Impact are not going to be paid any differently to the likes of Creator etc so i can't see a money issue anywhere.
Prime aren't the most funded team in the league i know but im sure they can afford to pay for a team of 8 players if they had the opportunity too. See when they got Myungsik etc, but he left for Sbenu later on due to issues i don't know the guy is strange xD
If you have 8 teams of 8 players each, that's a maximum amount of 64 players in Proleague. This year, 76 players were eligible to play at the start of Round 4. Even if you take out partners or players who left since then, there were still over 64. In that case a bunch of players would end up teamless (since there are always really good players that aren't on a Proleague team, like Creator). Worst case capping Proleague teams to 8 forcefully retires some players. That seems somewhat excessive.
Pretty much agree with what others said, return to Bo7 would be great as would be more map diversity. An all-kill round in round 2 or round 3 would be a nice touch aswell.
Yes 76 eligible to play but how many played...Having a squad that doesn't get used is pointless and unfair when some teams are screaming out for players;
CJ Entus - 9 player squad herO - 25W 16L ByuL - 21W 16L Bbyong - 16W 14L Hush - 4W 5L sKyHigh - 4W 7L Bunny - 2W 3L Sora - 1W 3L RagnaroK - 1W 3L Trust - 1W 1L As you can see 9 players, 4 of these players played less than 5 games. You trim that down to 8 players Trust can go play more games for Prime every week as an example. Or you make an A and a B team and then have two divisions of pro league every season. But all my point was getting at is that it should be more competitive from top to bottom, this year it was more competitive in the midfield. Jin Air through to Samsung/MVP could beat each other.
However difference between SKT and Prime is astronomical which isn't right. Well not isn't right more of to be even better league that distance could close and they could be capable of beating the top team. It is fine the way it is, i just think it could be even better with this change.
I'm going to agree with a lot of people that a return to winners league rounds would be great. Alternating WL and proleague format rounds (round 1 normal, round 2 all-kill etc.) would be a great addition.
Some of my favourite proleague moments were all-kills back in Brood War, Guemchi reverse all-killing CJ and Skyhigh reverse all-killing that WL final against Hwaseung spring to mind. They were moments that dreams are made of.
More consistent interviews with the players would be good too, it's a good way for foreign fans to get to know the players more, especially those that don't play very often.
On October 12 2015 16:44 ZAiNs wrote: PLEASE bring back the game timer. It really makes proleague, the highest level of SC2 in the world, much worse to watch.
Unfortunately we removed the game timer to stop some types of e-Sports gambling.
Do you think this prevents it? It seems like it would be easy to use a different timer or something.
Anyway having an Archon mode match would be pretty exciting.
First of all, thanks for a great season! Proleage is absolutely one of my favourite tournaments to watch .
Suggestions:
1. A many have mentionded, please try to bring the bo7 format back, if possible.
2. Please schedule one of the matchdays to Sunday again. This way more foreigners could watch the english stream live again. At least one day.
3. More map diversity throughout the season would be nice. In the past great maps surfaced in Proleague, which were then used in ladder and WCS tournaments later.
4. Please, please, please enable healthbars for the english stream! Give the english stream their own observer if that is what's needed. There is a difference between foreign and korean viewers it seems, but not having healthbars can be really infuriating for us and the healthbars should be set to "damaged" for the english stream.
Thanks for all your work and your continued effort to improve your product!
Now some suggestions: 1) Subtitles For prepared videos it would be great to see them with English subtitles instead of Korean :-)
2) Videos Show us more stuff. Interview old gods of BW!(and don't forget the subtitles!! Eg. Nada with Canata) The 10 Questions and Answers in English were great!! Bring it back, remove the hammer if necessary, but we were seeing Korean pros trying to look human! They tried to speak in English, it was great and it broke the stereotype of Korean robots without emotions
3) Add something so we can see a less used players more often. Maybe some tournament for players who played less than 5 games? Or some round where they actually have to field a "rookie" every match? Not sure. It's entertaining to see ace players all the time because they show the best games but sometime the "foreigner" level of play can be a good change
4) Add some fun. Something like all-star day in NHL And then add there some fun challenges and stuff (APM tourneys, micro tourneys ... etc.)
I think that's all. I am watchin at work so if something is now better or already incorporated then accept my apology for not noticing
Edit>
On October 12 2015 19:59 Musicus wrote: 2. Please schedule one of the matchdays to Sunday again. This way more foreigners could watch the english stream live again. At least one day.
3. More map diversity throughout the season would be nice. In the past great maps surfaced in Proleague, which were then used in ladder and WCS tournaments later.
#2 I think this was changed so we can see some PL heroes in foreign tourneys. If the finals are on Sunday and PL is on Sunday too...
#3 - Totally agree! I would say that's my fun section
It was mostly very very good. Three things though : -Bo7 ! Most teams already have the lineup for it -please please please, more new/exctiting/crazy/ridiculous maps. PL this season has been very boring regarding maps, while it is historically its role to bring new map concepts to the test. -THESE DAMN HEALTHBARS
1) HEALTHBARS! 2) Bo7 and all-kills are needed! More than the last season
and please... PLEASE... PLEASE! When you create highlights on YouTube PLEASE change song, 2 years in a row with the same song from Sum41/Blink182 (I don't know exactly) is too much
Personally I watch Proleague religiously. The only thing that would get me even more excited would be any sort of extra games. I would've loved to see some sort of Race Wars. I would also love to see any kind of All-Star-style matches. Be it the best 5 players from teams ranked 1-4-6 vs 2-3-5, or any sort of variation. I love All Star games. Especially if it were All-Kill format. I think everyone would.
Other than that, amazing tournament, can't wait for the next season to start.
I personally suppose the all-kill format in regular season games, because it rewards teams for having many solid players (a TEAM), instead of using their star player(s)to carry them through every time.
Please, bring back your own made maps for Proleague. Adding a couple of them give SPL a distinct flavour over the countless tournaments that are forced to use the ladder/WCS map pool, and makes room for cool, prepared strategies too!
1. Format: Really need Bo7. The Bo5 Ace match really has no hype around it. We got to see a couple dozen players come out once or twice. We need more than just a core of 20-30 players to talk about we need that plus snipers and rookies. Take Zoun for example. He was Primes only bright spot this season, then SKT grabbed him and he hasn't played since. We NEED Bo7
2. Maps: Kespa needs to reintroduce their own personally made maps. The maps do not I will repeat DO NOT need to be perfectly balanced for all 3 races. It's okay to have some ladder maps, you should but you need to have 1-3 non pool maps per round. It's okay to have a map that one race is never played on or we can expect a mirror match up every time. Its just not okay to have 7 maps like that. Speaking of which, you need a larger map pool, between 8-10 maps per round.
3: Production. Its okay for the most part. But what happened at the grand finals was a bit unforgivable.
4.Other: Overall proleague is Okay the way it is but it needs to improve to stay relevant.
Oh, and I would love to see a video about health in gaming. I mean with the wrist issues and not proper seating(looking at you, Maru!) etc. it would be nice to see a regular video about proper seating, proper gaming and all about this. I know these information are all over the internet, but I think it would be cool to inform directly.
Also it would be nice to see some information about "Why is this player missing again." Eg. interview Prime about ByuN!
1. Please i know that English caster pool in Korea is not that large, but if you can not replace Wolf please ask him to talk less nonsense. Valdes hypes the game well and Moonglade is a good analyst, but Wolf 2. Same as above.
IMO Proleague has the best production in all Korean SCII leagues. In terms of production I have no problem, except that maybe the venue for finals for this year was a bit small (which is actually a good thing).
BO7 would be a nice change compared to the last year, so that we can see more depth and variety in teams. However if the teams are unable to meet this requirement I guess it can remain as BO5.
Also, why has proleague stopped using their own custom maps? I felt that some of the best maps produced were from proleague (Frost, King Sejong Station, etc) and some of the unique maps provided us with entertaining games (Maze, Fighting Spirit, etc). I feel that if the maps are great enough Blizzard will include those maps in their WCS map pool too.
I think Archon mode might be an interesting addition for proleague once we get LOTV. I think it has a great potential there.
Maybe even have an event showmatch between rounds. Remember that one showmatch where the coaches got to pick their own team and compete against each other? That was very interesting to watch. Something similar to that would be great.
Awesome proleague, with great production, maybe bringing bo7 in regular saison will be great. And also (a true dream) why not making one the bo1 in archon mode
I like the format just make it a Bo7 instead of Bo5. No all-kill format please in the normal rounds because one of the best parts of Proleague is seeing lots of different players whether they're in the A-team or B-team. All-kill format removes that from happening as you just have the same few players playing and relies on just having one or two 'super players' rather than encouraging having a strong balance throughout the team.
Apart from that I'd like there to be more map variety as others have stated. I'd pretty happy though if things stayed the same as before.
Brilliant Season guys, i thoroughly enjoyed everything from beginning to end. The bo5 format is perfect for a weekly team league before getting to the bo7 grand finals.
The only thing i'd like to see more is, coach interviews, and player interviews in between breaks so they can talk to their foreign fans
Please consider allowing foreign teams to participate in PL (ROOT, Liquid, Myinsanity etc). It will add more variability to PL roster. And do something with PRIME, their eternal loosiness is boring already
Try an experiment with Archon mode. For example in the third round make the middle match an Archon mode game (perhaps not for that round's play-offs though).
Also please consider incorporating the resources/supply/upgrades element of the GameHeart UI. The bigger numbers are much clearer to see on a low-res stream and the upgrade is really handy to have available all the time.
Other than that add some maps of your own choosing - like everyone is saying.
I am almost proud on TL how gerat feedback here is, everything has been basically said already many times:
- healthbars - timer - unusual maps
These would be the things I would be interested in. However even with no change, 2015 PL was pretty damn good, it was the first time I really cared abotu a team league in the 5 years of watching SC2. Really good job!
On October 12 2015 21:45 Korakys wrote: Try an experiment with Archon mode. For example in the third round make the middle match an Archon mode game (perhaps not for that round's play-offs though).
Also please consider incorporating the resources/supply/upgrades element of the GameHeart UI. The bigger numbers are much clearer to see on a low-res stream and the upgrade is really handy to have available all the time.
Other than that add some maps of your own choosing - like everyone is saying.
Proleague is the best tournament!
Oh god no! Keep it 1v1. The randomness archonmode and 2v2 would bring to proleague would be silly. Proleague is a 1v1 competition and it should stay that way.
On October 12 2015 18:30 thecrazymunchkin wrote: A minor suggestion - people keep mentioning the KeSPA Amateur leagues that are running, but they're never streamed / televised. How about taking the winners and putting them in a showmatch just before PL starts maybe once a month?
It would be nice to see more new talent playing, and I'm sure it'd be fun for them to play in front of a crowd
This would be really amazing and something I would totally watch. I love the Korean starcraft scene and would really like to see more amateur players as well!
On October 12 2015 21:45 Muxtar wrote: Please consider allowing foreign teams to participate in PL (ROOT, Liquid, Myinsanity etc). It will add more variability to PL roster. And do something with PRIME, their eternal loosiness is boring already
Rain would't be able to play for MYI because Kespa ruled that his Proleague rights still belong to SKT1 and SKT1 won't let him compete for another team.
On October 12 2015 21:45 Korakys wrote: Try an experiment with Archon mode. For example in the third round make the middle match an Archon mode game (perhaps not for that round's play-offs though).
Also please consider incorporating the resources/supply/upgrades element of the GameHeart UI. The bigger numbers are much clearer to see on a low-res stream and the upgrade is really handy to have available all the time.
Other than that add some maps of your own choosing - like everyone is saying.
Proleague is the best tournament!
Oh god no! Keep it 1v1. The randomness archonmode and 2v2 would bring to proleague would be silly. Proleague is a 1v1 competition and it should stay that way.
How is archonmode any more or less random than regular 1v1? And Proleague is adamantly not a 1v1 competition, but a team vs team one. I'd say that trying to integrate archonmode into the format would fit perfectly well within Proleague's scope.
On October 12 2015 21:45 Muxtar wrote: Please consider allowing foreign teams to participate in PL (ROOT, Liquid, Myinsanity etc). It will add more variability to PL roster. And do something with PRIME, their eternal loosiness is boring already
Rain would't be able to play for MYI because Kespa ruled that his Proleague rights still belong to SKT1 and SKT1 won't let him compete for another team.
I'd really appreciate it if they found a way to remove this ridiculous rule.
What i would want to see in the future season (and please assume everything not mentioned i DID like - SPL is amongst my absolute favourite e-sport events out there, in large part due to the free 1080p Azubu stream):
1. Bo7 format (requires deeper rosters, more players get playtime, less variance, more interesting overall) 2. Include weekends in the schedule - as a european it's nearly impossible for me to see any games live 3. More first person shots during games (especially during big fights, harassment etc.)
4. Upload VODs *asap* (since I can almost never watch games live due to time zone differences) 5. Include All-kill rounds (regular format is great, but some diversity in form of all-kill rounds would be welcome) 6. Play around with maps more (although if this meant you couldn't give away WCS points - don't do that) 7. Include archon mode in regular play (perhaps as an ace?) 8. More english filler content (the downtimes are huge for english speakers) 9. Bigger caster rotaion (if possible; guest casters from time to time?)
1. New unique maps for Proleague. 2. Bo7 proleague format in regular matches, all-kill in playoffs. 3. Archon Mode in one of the games. <-- not really sure about this but it could be great if players would be willing to practice for it. IMHO Proleague would be the best place for Archon Mode of all the tournaments.
Turn on Music for all games and sound balance it so casters are slightly louder, but the music can still be heard and in game set the Music to Starcraft 2 and Broodwar Music please
On October 12 2015 21:45 Muxtar wrote: Please consider allowing foreign teams to participate in PL (ROOT, Liquid, Myinsanity etc). It will add more variability to PL roster. And do something with PRIME, their eternal loosiness is boring already
Rain would't be able to play for MYI because Kespa ruled that his Proleague rights still belong to SKT1 and SKT1 won't let him compete for another team.
I'd really appreciate it if they found a way to remove this ridiculous rule.
That's the best thing Kespa/SpoTV could do for next season in my opinion. Sbenu could have made playoffs if Parting was allowed to play for them this year.
First, I think proleague is the best sc2 content out there right now! So even if it stays the way it is, i think that would be ok. But obviously there are always ways to improve something, so here are my ideas:
1. Change the format to bo7. Most teams in the league should be ok with this and we would suddenly see players who didn't have the chance in the bo5 system. I also think it strengthens the idea of proleague as a team competition. 2. Don't use standard ladder maps! I really liked it when you guys had crazy maps in proleague, it was highly unique and it was fun to see the meta develop on said maps. Maybe add only 1-2 crazy ones, that would be already enough i think. 3. The next proleague season will use LOTV, so i feel one archon mode match in every series would be pretty interesting. Can you imagine the hype when Flash and TY play against soO and Dark? It would be awesome!
Other than that i am pretty much happy and wouldn't change anything
On October 12 2015 21:45 Muxtar wrote: Please consider allowing foreign teams to participate in PL (ROOT, Liquid, Myinsanity etc). It will add more variability to PL roster. And do something with PRIME, their eternal loosiness is boring already
Well there are existing partnerships, and last time a foreigner team participated in PL (EG-TL), and even when their team was mostly Koreans, they got destroyed real hard. EG-TL pulled out of proleague after one season.
Furthermore foreign teams have no reason to participate in PL, the sponsors doesn't see the need to. I guess the best bet is to have foreigners join proleague once in a while as partnership, but whether they will be fielded is another completely separate question because foreigners will most likely lose their match unless they are fielded against B-Teamers, and no team would probably risk it.
Pro league is the best Starcraft you can watch on a regular basis and I thank you all for this. Also it's great that you are asking for suggestions from fans. As someone who doesn't really play Starcraft anymore but still watches lot's of games avidly I am really glad to see Proleague is coming back next year!
1. More teams, i know this may be hard but having a wider variety of teams would be great. 2. More all kill format somehow, it's a lot more exciting. 3. I really enjoy the commentary team, please do not mess with this. DO NOT get Artosis or Tasteless. Leave them to do some GSL. 4. As lot's of people have said, more unique maps. 5. Allow/encourage more Kespa/Proleague players to travel more to EU and NA events. 6. Timer would be nice but I totally understand why you removed it. 7. Be a little more diligent when uploading the VOD's. Every noe and then one of the English games doesn't get uploaded, Grand Finals set 4 as an example. I use the Esports channel on youtube to watch them.
Keep up the great work and thanks for listening <3
Edit. Sound Equalising, sometimes on the English stream/VOD's the music is horribly loud, to the point where you can't hear commentators.
Edit 2. Kespa 5 year rule..... This is stoping a lot of players from performing in Proleague that the fans want to see. Again I understand why this rule is in place but perhaps make it 3 years so it is a little less harsh.
On October 12 2015 21:45 Muxtar wrote: Please consider allowing foreign teams to participate in PL (ROOT, Liquid, Myinsanity etc). It will add more variability to PL roster. And do something with PRIME, their eternal loosiness is boring already
Well there are existing partnerships, and last time a foreigner team participated in PL (EG-TL), and even when their team was mostly Koreans, they got destroyed real hard. EG-TL pulled out of proleague after one season.
Furthermore foreign teams have no reason to participate in PL, the sponsors doesn't see the need to. I guess the best bet is to have foreigners join proleague once in a while as partnership, but whether they will be fielded is another completely separate question because foreigners will most likely lose their match unless they are fielded against B-Teamers, and no team would probably risk it.
Problem with EG-TL is their players kept getting flown around to tournaments and stuff. HerO/Jaedong/Oz/aLive/Zenio/TaeJa made a solid team eventually but Jaedong or TaeJa or HerO would pop off to some foreign tournament and ruin their practice.
Nothing to add that others haven't said, but my top wishes would be:
- Best of 7 series - 1 game in archon mode in each series - revoke the rule that keeps Rain, et al out of Proleague
Expanding the series and adding archon mode would have to mean expanding the rosters for a lot of teams, so maybe it's not feasible. But a guy can hope.
It occured to me that so far we have been mostly thinking about "us". But are there other people that could be concivnced to watch Proleague? I am pretty sure everyone who goes to TL at least from time to time knows about PL and most of the people here watch it but I have honestly no idea if there are some more SC2 fans around just ignoring this great show.
So I think KeSPA should try to evaluate the possibilities and see if some marketing could bring in more foreigners to watch, because that would be in my opinion just good for the thing. Maybe even have some matches (round playoffs?) abroad on some big evetns to attract attention? Allow every team to employ a couple of "mercenaries" - players that are not on PL teams, but are popular in the foreign scene? I know how badly EG-TL went, though, so I don't know how good of an idea this is.
This thinking is based on my own experience - I have been missing out on PL for quite some time, because it was kinda in its own world, I did not know much about it, did not feel much interest in the PL teams etc... Now it's quite different because nowadays the set of players in PL is essentially identical with those in GSL/SSL - almost everyone relevant in Korea plays in PL now. But still, marketing is important I think.
This season was great and there is a lot we can hope seen replicated but I think my main issue/issues are the playoff structure and the lack of all kill format. I do agree bo1 finals is the way to go, but I don't like this "climb the hill" approach. For playoffs I would like to see a bracket where the top ranked team decides who he want to play in semifinals (second place gets immunity from this). Also I would love to see more all kill matches, maybe dedicate a week per round on it?
Can we have a rebroadcast during North American prime time? Say 8pm EST? I don't mind watching the VODs on YouTube but sometimes watching the rebroadcast is pretty fun as well because the downtime is not cut.
On October 12 2015 16:51 Shkudde wrote: I loved the League, I just wish you would start using your own maps again. Seeing crazy stuff like Neo Arkanoid and great maps like King Sejong for the first time made me fall in love with PL in the first place.
Wait, those are maps made by PL? They were FANTASTIC!!!
They really should use those over the horrible map pool from Blizzard...
You can do whatever you want but if you want WCS points you have to use Blizzard maps.
Proleague doesn't give WCS points anyway though, since it's a team league, so they could indeed do whatever they want regarding maps.
It'd also be nice if KeSPA and TotalBiscuit could figure something out so that Axiom could participate in ProLeague, maybe in partnership with Prime, to keep both teams alive?
I know you cant bring back the timer for obvious reasons, but could it be possible to have more time updates from the casters. I dont care if I cant read 8:37 in the corner of the screen but I would like to have a general idea of where the game is at ( maybe this is pointless since LOTV timer is realtime )
Bo7 format would be great, more fpv during broadcast, more aussie casters!
On October 12 2015 18:49 Varest wrote: It's bothering me that death effects are turned off.
Also the missing timer of course. I don't understand how someone can deem it acceptable to remove an integral feature for everyone to put up a minor obstacle for a small group of people.
According to the Broadcasting Act, the programme will be rated R If effects are turned on - which means SPOTV cannot air SPL and SSL in prime time.
edit: GSL is an exception to the rule, cause it is not on telly
Hmm about that 1st person view. How hard would it be to get streams of both players? Even in lower quality so the bandwidth is saved I think they can afford good enough computers so the player won't see an impact
Please stick with bo5 format. It's hard enough for me to watch more than 1 series per week with bo5 and 2 other korean leagues going on, I don't even know if I'd be able to follow PL if it was all bo7. Do some 1st person view of players during the game. Make the final post-season a bracket like last year, I thought it was kinda lame that SKT was already seeded into the grand finals. Add some sort of rule to force teams to send out different players though, like only 1-2 players can play two weeks in a row. Other than that I had a great time watching & following. Thanks for doing PL!!!
Since so many people are asking for archon: Please for the love of god don't include this. At least not as part of the regular season. I have seen enough progamer's careers getting fucked because they had to play 2v2 in BW PL. Even though archon is far more similar to 1v1, I'd hate to see promising up & coming players getting the short stick because they are their teams archon.
I feel bad for responding only this late to the post. I have watched every single game of PL this year with full passion, it would be awesome if you would still mind to read my feedback!
Let's get started! I love the format of Proleague, I think Bo5 is very good and it is a very viable options to keep the smaller teams on board. On the other hand, a Bo7 format allows the now often benched players to play more regularly. I feel "Sorry" (pun intended) that players like this guy are only seen in the finals while they could preform awesomly in the regular season as well! Looking at SKT, we saw only so many games of KT All Killer Billowy, the newly acquired Impact and like I mentioned, Sorry was there only in limted matches.
The maps are awesome! Yes really! The proleague map creatures can create maps which exactly fit the tournaments needs. Of course you will see that certain races will be more populair on certain maps, but that is fine as long as it doesn't get too stale (PvP on Maze anyone?) What I would love is a tad more diversity in terms of maps. A map like Deadwing or Vaani Research Station has been in the pool for 3 rounds which is kind of long. Especially if we compare them to maps like Catallena which have only been in the Proleague pool for a single round. I also wonder what would happen if a map showed for Rounds 1 and 3 or 2 and 4. Maybe this would be nice to experiment with. Overall, I am very happy about the maps themselves. Maybe be a bit more innovative with certain map scenarios (a while ago I suggested very small main bases in terms of building room which "forces" you to build production in unsafe area's instead, allowing production harrasment instead of workers! link is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/476529-mapping-concept). Just a thought!
So we have players and we have maps. That sums up the most important things. BUT OF COURSE THERE ARE ALSO CASTERS! I really do like the improvement of Valdes, he was a bit timid at first, but he is very high in my castersranklist right now! m00nglade knows what's up. I really like them as a pair! While Wolf is probably the most experienced caster out there, I do not always enjoy his casts. Sometimes I have the idea that he is a bit stuck in Broodwar Nostalgia and as someone who did not (sorry, I know) play BW this sometimes annoys me. Except for that he is a perfectly fine caster with good chemistry towards the other two.
A longer Finals in the Playoffs would be awesome. But I am of course not up to date on the possibilities. Bo3 - Bo3 - Bo1 is a bit lackluster. Hiring a revenue for Finals seems like a Korean tradition, though I think that a lot of fans would appreciate a Bo5-Bo7 in studio over a Bo1 in a fancy hall.
All in all I am already missing PL and I look forward to the new season!
I really enjoyed the entire concept. Having a long season of matches to sort out the best is exciting and welcomed change from "weekend tournaments".
One thing I want to particularly point out that I really enjoyed was having something other than twitch to watch from! Azubu wasn't always perfect, but I really enjoyed the stream and watched through it almost every time!
I've long wanted 2v2 to be incorporated into team matches (as the opening match, not ace) but alas I fear that will never happen... However, maybe we could have occasional ARCHON mode matches!? (This might also give less known players a chance to play and show off some interesting strategies.)
Thank you for being open to hearing our thoughts and suggestions Chuddinater. Proleague (from the BW era till present) has and always will be the greatest and most exciting team league in the world!
Things that will make next PL season even better:
1.Get a viable 8th team (Prime) -I understand the history and significance of this once great team. Time moves on and if you don't adapt, you get consumed. It's been an embarrassment the last 2 seasons (especially this time) that one team is so clearly inferior compared to all others. When you have the English broadcast crew jokingly calling Prime 'the bonus round' every week, it cheapens the integrity of the entire PL.
If the 8th team isn't massively overhauled and significantly improved with an influx of new resources/signings/partnership with another viable foreign team in addition to proper coaching/training, I'd rather there just be 7 total teams despite the obvious scheduling difficulties. Seeing a team lack the basic tools/manpower to compete at the highest level required, really cheapens the whole allure and mystique of PL.
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
Their constant early game unrelated tangents about caster predictions, food, other video games, or previous life experiences are annoying and make them appear more like general fans than actual professional broadcasters. No one cares about what you ate or where you went the previous night. Stick to talking about the game and players/teams involved. The fact that they don't, points to a lack of preparedness and underlying PL knowledge on their part.
3.Bo7 regular season format -this is critical in giving more players (especially unproven ones) opportunities/exposure and would ensure that cultivating team depth actually matters. It would make for a greatly improved viewing experience to constantly see new players emerge and new play-styles/strategies flourish. Watching the same players every single week in the current Bo5 (e.g. herO/Byul/Bbyong, Maru/sOs/Rogue, Zest/Flash/Stats/Life gets tiresome and predictable.
4.More fan-friendly side segements for foreign viewers (w/ english translations) -e.g. 10q&a, ceremonies, player interviews, more footage of team training house daily life, random funny/quirky stuff, (basically just give players a chance to show viewers their actual personality outside of the controlled booth environment)
5.Show more FPV during games -this has been an annoyance of mine since BW PL days. And I understand that KESPA is reluctant to show the FPV to the broadcast audience during games to maintain a competitive advantage for the players involved. But showing a bit more, especially during key battles would be way more exciting and should help further viewer interest. When you get to see their actual view in real-time, the true degree of their skill and speed becomes apparent even to the uninformed watcher. Seeing longer extended clips during key game moments would make viewing infinitely more exciting.
Thank you for listening to my suggestions and can't wait till next year. Long live Proleague!
I would love bo7's back, as well as a more diverse, constantly changing map pool. Whether that's realistic for players or whatever I haven't the slightest clue.
Oh yeah, health bars would be epic.
I also miss the game timer, but understand why it's gone.
On October 13 2015 01:52 Orr wrote: Thank you for being open to hearing our thoughts and suggestions Chuddinater. Proleague (from the BW era till present) has and always will be the greatest and most exciting team league in the world!
Things that will make next PL season even better:
1.Get a viable 8th team (Prime) -I understand the history and significance of this once great team. Time moves on and if you don't adapt, you get consumed. It's been an embarrassment the last 2 seasons (especially this time) that one team is so clearly inferior compared to all others. When you have the English broadcast crew jokingly calling Prime 'the bonus round' every week, it cheapens the integrity of the entire PL.
If the 8th team isn't massively overhauled and significantly improved with an influx of new resources/signings/partnership with another viable foreign team in addition to proper coaching/training, I'd rather there just be 7 total teams despite the obvious scheduling difficulties. Seeing a team lack the basic tools/manpower to compete at the highest level required, really cheapens the whole allure and mystique of PL.
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
Their constant early game unrelated tangents about caster predictions, food, other video games, or previous life experiences are annoying and make them appear more like general fans than actual professional broadcasters. No one cares about what you ate or where you went the previous night. Stick to talking about the game and players/teams involved. The fact that they don't, points to a lack of preparedness and underlying PL knowledge on their part.
3.Bo7 regular season format -this is critical in giving more players (especially unproven ones) opportunities/exposure and would ensure that cultivating team depth actually matters. It would make for a greatly improved viewing experience to constantly see new players emerge and new play-styles/strategies flourish. Watching the same players every single week in the current Bo5 (e.g. herO/Byul/Bbyong, Maru/sOs/Rogue, Zest/Flash/Stats/Life gets tiresome and predictable.
4.More fan-friendly side segements for foreign viewers (w/ english translations) -e.g. 10q&a, ceremonies, player interviews, more footage of team training house daily life, random funny/quirky stuff, (basically just give players a chance to show viewers their actual personality outside of the controlled booth environment)
5.Show more FPV during games -this has been an annoyance of mine since BW PL days. And I understand that KESPA is reluctant to show the FPV to the broadcast audience during games to maintain a competitive advantage for the players involved. But showing a bit more, especially during key battles would be way more exciting and should help further viewer interest. When you get to see their actual view in real-time, the true degree of their skill and speed becomes apparent even to the uninformed watcher. Seeing longer extended clips during key game moments would make viewing infinitely more exciting.
Thank you for listening to my suggestions and can't wait till next year. Long live Proleague!
Wow, this is spot on. I agree with everything.
I just have to add, I agree about the English casting. I won't be as negative as I have in the past, but I truly believe these guys could improve vastly. Moonglade is very close minded about how he views the game, and thinks what he knows is the be all end all ( at least that's how it comes off to me every cast ). Valdez is a pretty poor speaker grammatically, as well as phonetically. He is just annoying to listen to for me, and also has nothing to add. Just agrees or repeats what Wolf and Moonglade say. Now, Wolf is very good at his job, I just feel when he's paired with people who don't take it seriously, he tends to do the same. I like Wolf a lot though, overall. And I agree with your points Orr, the non-Starcraft stuff they talk about is completely boring and annoying, and overall, their attempts to be funny flounder completely. It's just strange how unprofessional on the whole this trio comes off during casts. This is my biggest complaint about PL.
I also totally agree about picking up a worthy 8th team, SOMEHOW. Prime matches were basically a waste of everyone's time, spectators included.
BO7 like everyone is saying of course. I'd also like to see a mix between ladder maps and Proleague choice maps. It's great to have matches played on ladder maps to see new build orders that will make it to ladder. It's also great to have players come up with one off builds for maps that aren't frequently practiced as it makes for some scrappy and exciting games.
On October 13 2015 01:52 Orr wrote: Thank you for being open to hearing our thoughts and suggestions Chuddinater. Proleague (from the BW era till present) has and always will be the greatest and most exciting team league in the world!
Things that will make next PL season even better:
1.Get a viable 8th team (Prime) -I understand the history and significance of this once great team. Time moves on and if you don't adapt, you get consumed. It's been an embarrassment the last 2 seasons (especially this time) that one team is so clearly inferior compared to all others. When you have the English broadcast crew jokingly calling Prime 'the bonus round' every week, it cheapens the integrity of the entire PL.
If the 8th team isn't massively overhauled and significantly improved with an influx of new resources/signings/partnership with another viable foreign team in addition to proper coaching/training, I'd rather there just be 7 total teams despite the obvious scheduling difficulties. Seeing a team lack the basic tools/manpower to compete at the highest level required, really cheapens the whole allure and mystique of PL.
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
Their constant early game unrelated tangents about caster predictions, food, other video games, or previous life experiences are annoying and make them appear more like general fans than actual professional broadcasters. No one cares about what you ate or where you went the previous night. Stick to talking about the game and players/teams involved. The fact that they don't, points to a lack of preparedness and underlying PL knowledge on their part.
3.Bo7 regular season format -this is critical in giving more players (especially unproven ones) opportunities/exposure and would ensure that cultivating team depth actually matters. It would make for a greatly improved viewing experience to constantly see new players emerge and new play-styles/strategies flourish. Watching the same players every single week in the current Bo5 (e.g. herO/Byul/Bbyong, Maru/sOs/Rogue, Zest/Flash/Stats/Life gets tiresome and predictable.
4.More fan-friendly side segements for foreign viewers (w/ english translations) -e.g. 10q&a, ceremonies, player interviews, more footage of team training house daily life, random funny/quirky stuff, (basically just give players a chance to show viewers their actual personality outside of the controlled booth environment)
5.Show more FPV during games -this has been an annoyance of mine since BW PL days. And I understand that KESPA is reluctant to show the FPV to the broadcast audience during games to maintain a competitive advantage for the players involved. But showing a bit more, especially during key battles would be way more exciting and should help further viewer interest. When you get to see their actual view in real-time, the true degree of their skill and speed becomes apparent even to the uninformed watcher. Seeing longer extended clips during key game moments would make viewing infinitely more exciting.
Thank you for listening to my suggestions and can't wait till next year. Long live Proleague!
Wow, this is spot on. I agree with everything.
I just have to add, I agree about the English casting. I won't be as negative as I have in the past, but I truly believe these guys could improve vastly. Moonglade is very close minded about how he views the game, and thinks what he knows is the be all end all ( at least that's how it comes off to me every cast ). Valdez is a pretty poor speaker grammatically, as well as phonetically. He is just annoying to listen to for me, and also has nothing to add. Just agrees or repeats what Wolf and Moonglade say. Now, Wolf is very good at his job, I just feel when he's paired with people who don't take it seriously, he tends to do the same. I like Wolf a lot though, overall. And I agree with your points Orr, the non-Starcraft stuff they talk about is completely boring and annoying, and overall, their attempts to be funny flounder completely. It's just strange how unprofessional on the whole this trio comes off during casts. This is my biggest complaint about PL.
I also totally agree about picking up a worthy 8th team, SOMEHOW. Prime matches were basically a waste of everyone's time, spectators included.
And, more FPV would be saweet.
I hope you like listening to dead silence then, cause that's what you're gonna get.
On October 13 2015 01:52 Orr wrote: Thank you for being open to hearing our thoughts and suggestions Chuddinater. Proleague (from the BW era till present) has and always will be the greatest and most exciting team league in the world!
Things that will make next PL season even better:
1.Get a viable 8th team (Prime) -I understand the history and significance of this once great team. Time moves on and if you don't adapt, you get consumed. It's been an embarrassment the last 2 seasons (especially this time) that one team is so clearly inferior compared to all others. When you have the English broadcast crew jokingly calling Prime 'the bonus round' every week, it cheapens the integrity of the entire PL.
If the 8th team isn't massively overhauled and significantly improved with an influx of new resources/signings/partnership with another viable foreign team in addition to proper coaching/training, I'd rather there just be 7 total teams despite the obvious scheduling difficulties. Seeing a team lack the basic tools/manpower to compete at the highest level required, really cheapens the whole allure and mystique of PL.
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
Their constant early game unrelated tangents about caster predictions, food, other video games, or previous life experiences are annoying and make them appear more like general fans than actual professional broadcasters. No one cares about what you ate or where you went the previous night. Stick to talking about the game and players/teams involved. The fact that they don't, points to a lack of preparedness and underlying PL knowledge on their part.
3.Bo7 regular season format -this is critical in giving more players (especially unproven ones) opportunities/exposure and would ensure that cultivating team depth actually matters. It would make for a greatly improved viewing experience to constantly see new players emerge and new play-styles/strategies flourish. Watching the same players every single week in the current Bo5 (e.g. herO/Byul/Bbyong, Maru/sOs/Rogue, Zest/Flash/Stats/Life gets tiresome and predictable.
4.More fan-friendly side segements for foreign viewers (w/ english translations) -e.g. 10q&a, ceremonies, player interviews, more footage of team training house daily life, random funny/quirky stuff, (basically just give players a chance to show viewers their actual personality outside of the controlled booth environment)
5.Show more FPV during games -this has been an annoyance of mine since BW PL days. And I understand that KESPA is reluctant to show the FPV to the broadcast audience during games to maintain a competitive advantage for the players involved. But showing a bit more, especially during key battles would be way more exciting and should help further viewer interest. When you get to see their actual view in real-time, the true degree of their skill and speed becomes apparent even to the uninformed watcher. Seeing longer extended clips during key game moments would make viewing infinitely more exciting.
Thank you for listening to my suggestions and can't wait till next year. Long live Proleague!
Wow, this is spot on. I agree with everything.
I just have to add, I agree about the English casting. I won't be as negative as I have in the past, but I truly believe these guys could improve vastly. Moonglade is very close minded about how he views the game, and thinks what he knows is the be all end all ( at least that's how it comes off to me every cast ). Valdez is a pretty poor speaker grammatically, as well as phonetically. He is just annoying to listen to for me, and also has nothing to add. Just agrees or repeats what Wolf and Moonglade say. Now, Wolf is very good at his job, I just feel when he's paired with people who don't take it seriously, he tends to do the same. I like Wolf a lot though, overall. And I agree with your points Orr, the non-Starcraft stuff they talk about is completely boring and annoying, and overall, their attempts to be funny flounder completely. It's just strange how unprofessional on the whole this trio comes off during casts. This is my biggest complaint about PL.
I also totally agree about picking up a worthy 8th team, SOMEHOW. Prime matches were basically a waste of everyone's time, spectators included.
And, more FPV would be saweet.
I hope you like listening to dead silence then, cause that's what you're gonna get.
Really? cause there's a slew of casters doing it right. Artosis, Apollo, Rotti, etc.
Are you lying on purpose? Tastosis is known for their early game conversations about non-starcraft things. Rotterdam talks all game about things that have nothing to do with the game. All he does is tell stories while his partner does analysis. Apollo hasn't casted regularly in the better part of a year.
I loved this SPL season, but what I'd love to see is, as some other people, more player interviews wich help to know them better (10Q&10A for example).
English subs for the videos you guys made (Valdes and Wolf translate for us sometimes tho) would be great.
Also would love to see some showmatches, for example bo5 terran vs protoss and with the archon mode addition why no archon showmatch as well?
Anyway the production was extremely good and also you guys upload the vods to YouTube very fast which helps some of us who are sleeping when SPL is live to catch up. I'm very sad tho that there is so few people following SPL, it deserves a bigger following.
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
To counteract this:
These three casters are excellent and do a supremely professional job. they're AWESOME. tell them to keep it up
they're very good at talking about the game, the players, at providing a comfortable atmosphere
the comment i quoted makes no sense to me and i have never, ever found them unprofessional
it is very unfortunate that the skill difference between the teams is way to strong! look at SKT1 vs Prime in comparasion which was a so boring line up because no possibility for Prime to even win a bo1 don't care which player was nominated for SKT1. Actually the finals how way to strong SKT1 is compared to the rest of the teams which lead to uninteresting games from SKT1 all seasons long. There has to be a rule that guarantee more excitement between all 8 teams and not just between like 6 teams as for example in NHL or NBA with a drafting system where first draw goes to the weekest game of previous season so to close the gap at least a little. above that it is such a nice product of entertainment with music for the players, big show and so on just games could possibly take much longer (like a fast 3:0) but this reflects my already mentioned criticism above. (at least bo7 for whole season instead of bo5 would be awesome as others suggested. at least if equal teams)
Love the production and the easily accessed VODs. I'd love to be able to buy team jerseys and stuff but I realize that isn't very viable. FPV was nice and I'd like to see that if possible, even just a little. BO7 would rock but not expecting to see it.
On October 13 2015 02:16 LongShot27 wrote: Are you lying on purpose? Tastosis is known for their early game conversations about non-starcraft things. Rotterdam talks all game about things that have nothing to do with the game. All he does is tell stories while his partner does analysis. Apollo hasn't casted regularly in the better part of a year.
I'm not saying a caster can't talk about random shit in the early game. They way Tastosis does it can get a little annoying as well. I'm just saying, the PL's caster banter in particular is not good. Plain as that. But all those guys I mentioned bring another level of understanding of the game and analysis that PL guys don't often do, as well as simply being more likable. We get a little from MG & Wolf, but it's just not the same. Apollo not casting currently isn't relevant. He's one of the best to ever do it, and we need more like him.
1.) Let Parting play in proleague! Review your rules about players switching teams and being able to play in proleague. It really sucks having one of the favorite players not being able to play in proleague.
2.) Prime getting stomped on was not particularly fun to watch. I think it was discouraging to all the fans. I think it was even more discouraging to the prime team as a whole, which we pretty much saw crumble, and the players playing worse as the year went on.
On October 13 2015 03:10 Fatz wrote: 1.) Let Parting play in proleague! Review your rules about players switching teams and being able to play in proleague. It really sucks having one of the favorite players not being able to play in proleague.
2.) Prime getting stomped on was not particularly fun to watch. I think it was discouraging to all the fans. I think it was even more discouraging to the prime team as a whole, which we pretty much saw crumble, and the players playing worse as the year went on.
Let Parting play, but only on Prime. History be damned.
Please make a scheduled rebroadcast because Korean timezone is a bit inconvinient. But don't make it like GSL, their rebroadcast seems so random and spontaneous, please make one with distinct and clear schedule.
How about allowing smaller streamers to rebroadcast Proleague? It can mess up statistics but could bring in more audience as well because 1) non-english speaking people, 2) people who don't like current commentators 3) broadcasting time/schedule. It shouldn't be frivolous but maybe giving out accreditations, like Ogaming :D.
I would love to see a caster swap: ocassionally a Korean caster would swap with an English caster, so we could see a difference between a Korean and foreign mindset about Starcraft.
BO7's would be great, but if time doesn't allow it, then maybe we could have an extended ace match: when the score is 2-2, there will be 3 ace matches instead of a single one.
I'd like to reiterate that we all think having a team that's basically a free win for everyone is a disgrace. Prime is one of the oldest teams on SC2 and we love them, but they need to either get replaced or get rescued. They need help. They need more players of decent caliber, because showing up to lose 0-3 to every single team, every single round is unacceptable.
Going to give one more vote for Bo7 with the Proleague format. It's more interesting because teams need to field more players and thus need to get wins from their bench players. That time in BW where Proleague switched to Bo7 was what gave players like Rain and soO their chance to shine. They were always behind Bisu, Fantasy and Best before that time and look where they are now.
And need more original Proleague maps. You don't give WCS points anyway so no need to only play on Blizzard maps.
Best of 5 is SO BORING. The same players and matches over and over and over, and the inability for teams to use their deep rosters or any line-up strategics.
Edit: Somewhat more seriously, I'd rather see Best of 7 with only one series per night or somehow reducing the down time (extra warmup computers for the players maybe, though I'm not sure how that would affect other things).
On October 13 2015 04:40 str10_hurts wrote: I don't know if this has been posted but:
Ace match - Archon mode
I would go through the roof!
that would be awful
How?
I would think archon mode would represent the team better. The best macro and best micro combined. Or do you think it will devolve in a cheese fest or don't you like the concept of archon in proleague?
As various people have mentioned Bo7 would be nice (I realize that SPL intentionally switched to Bo5 because Bo7 series were perceived as taking too long), more all-kill format would be nice (how about a particular round that's all all-kill).
Some other ideas:
* The biggest issue I see in SPL now is that because there are only 4 playoff spots and there are 4 top teams in CJ, Jin Air KT and SKT, it's rare to see anyone else make playoffs. This year out of a total of 20 playoff spots, 18 were taken by those 4 teams. How about adding an extra round to the playoffs so that the top 5 teams make it. This will give the 5th place team a chance to advance on if they can win one all-kill match. Teams like MVP, Samsung or SBENU have strong players on them that could win multiple games in all-kill format and create an upset that is much more unlikely in Proleague format. We saw back in 2014 with MVP how an underdog team can accomplish miracles in all-kill format if they just make it that far. I do realize though this would cause only 3 teams each season to miss the playoffs but maybe that's not so bad.
* Add another round to the regular season; i.e., have 5 rounds before the season playoffs, that way SPL can last all year.
* I said it last year but I'd love for teams to have some incentive not to send out the same players over and over and over. I'd love to see some lesser-known players come out occasionally. I realize this can backfire because the players that get sent out over and over and over are popular players, so maybe Bo7 is the only realistic way to accomplish this.
i don't agree with archon in pro matches because it takes something away from the experience. watching MC and huk play together is fun, but you don't know who is making a good play or a big mistake, so ultimately there's something missing. if i'm watching maru vs life i know who i'm watching and i understand their playstyle.
i think people will get bored of archon the more they see it, and i think it's better suited to ladder and casual play than to professional play.
On October 13 2015 04:40 str10_hurts wrote: I don't know if this has been posted but:
Ace match - Archon mode
I would go through the roof!
that would be awful
How?
I would think archon mode would represent the team better. The best macro and best micro combined. Or do you think it will devolve in a cheese fest or don't you like the concept of archon in proleague?
My 2 cents on this: I feel like if you want to have your archon harmonise to the point they can be reliably sent into an ace match in Proleague, you have to give them a ton of practice time dedicated to that aspect specifically, and preferably for all 3 races. Those who'd ordinarily be the ace player(s) would have to cut into their practice for their 1v1 to get perfect archon synergy (at least at the start of things). Seems like an unreasonable amount of work, tbh.
On October 13 2015 04:40 str10_hurts wrote: I don't know if this has been posted but:
Ace match - Archon mode
I would go through the roof!
that would be awful
How?
I would think archon mode would represent the team better. The best macro and best micro combined. Or do you think it will devolve in a cheese fest or don't you like the concept of archon in proleague?
My 2 cents on this: I feel like if you want to have your archon harmonise to the point they can be reliably sent into an ace match in Proleague, you have to give them a ton of practice time dedicated to that aspect specifically, and preferably for all 3 races. Those who'd ordinarily be the ace player(s) would have to cut into their practice for their 1v1 to get perfect archon synergy (at least at the start of things). Seems like an unreasonable amount of work, tbh.
I agree with that analysis. You can't realistically expect players to practice for archon mode, standard play and individual leagues. The only interesting outcome would be B-teamers specializing in archon mode, but I doubt that would be the case.
Buy more mics what occurred on the finals was unforgivable, and Spotv screwed the english sound twice on those super big events by having loud music making impossible to hear the casters.
the all-kill format is fun to watch if it isnt the format all the time. I'd like to have maybe double to the amount of all-kill but with more matches (bo11/13) needed for a win. I'd also like to see some of the maps that where considered 'balanced' in their day, to see what new meta does to old maps. <3 nostalgia. more stuff that talks about the game/play style/race match up. maybe in depth opinions about how the (korean) casters arrived at their prediction who will win the match. maybe predictions by the day's MVP (and his coach?) on who will win the next day's matches. maybe the best sign gets to ask the MVP a question.
No all kill. Keep format but bo7. All kill takes away depth and will restrict number of players we see. I agree it kinda sucks that a couple of team have most of the good players but I don't see an obvious solution except increased sponsorship.
On October 13 2015 08:24 Pugfarmer wrote: No all kill. Keep format but bo7. All kill takes away depth and will restrict number of players we see. I agree it kinda sucks that a couple of team have most of the good players but I don't see an obvious solution except increased sponsorship.
If we keep the format and add Bo7 the number of players we'll see on non-allkill rounds will be higher anyway, so why not have 1-2 allkill rounds?
English stream: Please mic the audience. It's almost impossible to hear the audience cheering on the English stream. I wouldn't mind if you could hear the korean casters in the background either because they add a lot of excitement.
Honestly, I'm probably going to watch the Korean stream exclusively next season. No offense intended, but the English casters don't add anything to my viewing experience.
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
To counteract this:
These three casters are excellent and do a supremely professional job. they're AWESOME. tell them to keep it up
they're very good at talking about the game, the players, at providing a comfortable atmosphere
the comment i quoted makes no sense to me and i have never, ever found them unprofessional
During the PL finals, while INno and sOs were getting ready to go, Wolf said (I paraphrase) "I don't think I've ever seen INnoVation win a game in which he was behind in the early game."
Never mind how egregiously ill-conceived this statement is in general, as there is not a single pro on the planet about whom it's true. Literally the last time we saw INnoVation play was vs ByuL, and guess what, there was a game in that series where INno was significantly behind in the early game and came back and won it (Expedition Lost). So if Wolf could not remember ANY INnoVation games except literally the last series INno had played, on the biggest stage in the world, that would have been enough to disprove such a silly idea.
3. Incentives to switch up lineups. I want to see players like Trust, Guilty, Super, Zoun play occasionally.
4. Zoom in on the players during critical moments. It really increases the sense of urgency.
5. Revert to the 13-14 point system. SK Telecom being locked into the finals prior to round 4 made the final round incredibly boring. The 1 vs 4 and 2 v 3 bracket of the 13-14 season was much better. Waiting for months just to see who would play SKT in the finals severely decreased my interest in PL.
How about Proleague invents a new race and makes Starcraft 2 a 4 race game, and then forces 1/4 of players to play it! That would make things more interesting, and it's more realistic than Bo7 every happening!
On October 13 2015 12:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: How about Proleague invents a new race and makes Starcraft 2 a 4 race game, and then forces 1/4 of players to play it! That would make things more interesting, and it's more realistic than Bo7 every happening!
its not that unrealistic, your comment on the timeslot might be a concern if proleague was actually shown on TV, but if a tight schedule is a big problem, consider this, the average LOTV game is a shorter than the average HOTS game, rather than fill time with even longer breaks, might as well throw in 2 more games into the mix.
On October 13 2015 10:02 alexanderzero wrote: English stream: Please mic the audience. It's almost impossible to hear the audience cheering on the English stream. I wouldn't mind if you could hear the korean casters in the background either because they add a lot of excitement.
Honestly, I'm probably going to watch the Korean stream exclusively next season. No offense intended, but the English casters don't add anything to my viewing experience.
watching korean stream is always an excellent choice.
On October 13 2015 10:13 pure.Wasted wrote: Bo7 format, PL maps, health bars, and hopefully the issues with PartinG and the other players can be sorted out.
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
To counteract this:
These three casters are excellent and do a supremely professional job. they're AWESOME. tell them to keep it up
they're very good at talking about the game, the players, at providing a comfortable atmosphere
the comment i quoted makes no sense to me and i have never, ever found them unprofessional
During the PL finals, while INno and sOs were getting ready to go, Wolf said (I paraphrase) "I don't think I've ever seen INnoVation win a game in which he was behind in the early game."
Never mind how egregiously ill-conceived this statement is in general, as there is not a single pro on the planet about whom it's true. Literally the last time we saw INnoVation play was vs ByuL, and guess what, there was a game in that series where INno was significantly behind in the early game and came back and won it (Expedition Lost). So if Wolf could not remember ANY INnoVation games except literally the last series INno had played, on the biggest stage in the world, that would have been enough to disprove such a silly idea.
The English casting could be better but it's hardly something that desperately needs fixing. Yes, Wolf sometimes gets overexcited and says bizarre things that are just patently ridiculous (like him constantly insisting that ByuL is in a huge slump just because he hasn't won a finals, ignoring that ByuL has been clearly the best Zerg of 2015), but Moonglade helps keep it reasonable and honestly Brendan already knows more about SC2 than at least one very prominent SC2 caster I won't name.
All I'll say about the casting is please make sure you keep Moonglade and have him casting as often as possible. He's a very good balance of analysis and color commentary.
Instead of only 1v1 games, I would love to see them a 2v2 or archon match for just one game of the series. Maybe Season 1, you could have a single 2v2 in each series and in Season 2 have an archon match, then season 3 have a 2v2 and season 4 back to archon. Other than that I think you're doing a fantastic job, but I think to keep it from getting boring adding archon and/or 2v2 would make it more exciting. Thanks!
On October 13 2015 04:40 str10_hurts wrote: I don't know if this has been posted but:
Ace match - Archon mode
I would go through the roof!
that would be awful
How?
I would think archon mode would represent the team better. The best macro and best micro combined. Or do you think it will devolve in a cheese fest or don't you like the concept of archon in proleague?
My 2 cents on this: I feel like if you want to have your archon harmonise to the point they can be reliably sent into an ace match in Proleague, you have to give them a ton of practice time dedicated to that aspect specifically, and preferably for all 3 races. Those who'd ordinarily be the ace player(s) would have to cut into their practice for their 1v1 to get perfect archon synergy (at least at the start of things). Seems like an unreasonable amount of work, tbh.
I agree with that analysis. You can't realistically expect players to practice for archon mode, standard play and individual leagues. The only interesting outcome would be B-teamers specializing in archon mode, but I doubt that would be the case.
There were players that specialized in 2v2 when BW Proleague had it, so why not Archon mode. Makes sense to me.
1. KeSPA shop with jerseys and stuff sounds valid. every buy may increase the prize pool. also all the stuff could be mentioned to the current season (logo 'proleague 2016') so ppl are willing to buy it more than once.
2. i actually dislike the fact that the round playoffs system varies from the regular round system. it's quite obvious and historically proven that different teams are better in different formats (remember how CJ was shining though winners league rounds). so right now it's like teams are qualifying through the regular round to play the playoffs with the system that they actually not that good at, and vice sersa. this is why you're better to have a single format for a regular round and it's playoff (if it keeps on excisting) and bring back the winners league round or two.
3. it's greate to have a system of approvement of different language casters. the channels may be all gathered under the proleague tag on twitch, and casters may have to send stats on a regular basis. this can promote the league among the foreing fans, because ppl really need to know why proleague is awesome 1st to fall in love with it, while starcraft is not really a show where the interesting part is obvious for starting viewers.
4. replays after the season would be nice. also, back in good old days fp-vods was occasionally shared on youtube (with a delay of course), which was a cool thing imo.
5. probably you could start an additional show based on 'take comand' in replays. this format is here since it was introduced to the game, however, it still wasn't realised unless the rare exceptions. so what if casters invite players who try to replay some notable games from a turning points to finnish it with the different result. so viewers can better get into the game and understand the desicion making.
On October 13 2015 13:50 Yakikorosu wrote: All I'll say about the casting is please make sure you keep Moonglade and have him casting as often as possible. He's a very good balance of analysis and color commentary.
Indeed! Make sure to keep Moonglade, he significantly improves the other two casters.
Bring back Parting! It is for the best of all. The fans are happy and he brings more fans with him as viewers.
Bo7 would be better. This would let us see more than just the same faces every time.
Would like to see more foreigners. Difficult to manage after the egtl disaster. Best would be a quote of minimum 1 foreign player for each team or a foreigners united team with switching players. Both very unlikely to happen, but i would like it.
Use of the Archon Mode. One game in Archon mode or the ace match in archon mode would be nice.
Great season and the best SC2 league on the planet. I love you guys and thank you for everything!!
2 points -
1) Maps. As lots of people have previously stated.
2) Incentivize teams playing ALL their players. For example, if every player on the team gets 1 win in the same round, that team gets bonus points (a significant amount). Maybe 2 wins, I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. But anything to encourage teams to improve all their players and showcase them all as well would be great. Fresh faces almost always create more excitement.
On October 13 2015 20:32 J. Corsair wrote: Great season and the best SC2 league on the planet. I love you guys and thank you for everything!!
2 points -
1) Maps. As lots of people have previously stated.
2) Incentivize teams playing ALL their players. For example, if every player on the team gets 1 win in the same round, that team gets bonus points (a significant amount). Maybe 2 wins, I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. But anything to encourage teams to improve all their players and showcase them all as well would be great. Fresh faces almost always create more excitement.
Yeah lets not do that.
The best and easiest way for more players to play is to move to best of 7 and add 1 or 2 rounds
On October 13 2015 20:32 J. Corsair wrote: Great season and the best SC2 league on the planet. I love you guys and thank you for everything!!
2 points -
1) Maps. As lots of people have previously stated.
2) Incentivize teams playing ALL their players. For example, if every player on the team gets 1 win in the same round, that team gets bonus points (a significant amount). Maybe 2 wins, I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. But anything to encourage teams to improve all their players and showcase them all as well would be great. Fresh faces almost always create more excitement.
Yeah lets not do that.
The best and easiest way for more players to play is to move to best of 7 and add 1 or 2 rounds
I don't see how adding more rounds will incentivize using a broader base of players.
Hey, proleague was amazing this year again. I'd just like to see more games and more players being fielded. Would be nice to have bo7 during regular season as well.
On October 13 2015 20:32 J. Corsair wrote: Great season and the best SC2 league on the planet. I love you guys and thank you for everything!!
2 points -
1) Maps. As lots of people have previously stated.
2) Incentivize teams playing ALL their players. For example, if every player on the team gets 1 win in the same round, that team gets bonus points (a significant amount). Maybe 2 wins, I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. But anything to encourage teams to improve all their players and showcase them all as well would be great. Fresh faces almost always create more excitement.
Yeah lets not do that.
The best and easiest way for more players to play is to move to best of 7 and add 1 or 2 rounds
I don't see how adding more rounds will incentivize using a broader base of players.
It forces teams to not hold on to bench players for more games, it forces teams to use B-teamers when A-teamers go to tournaments.
The problem with the 5 year rule is that it's completely contradictory to the format of the league, especially with big teams having so many players. Basically if you sign for a Proleague team, you can only play for them for 5 years in the Proleague even if you move on to another team. But those teams are just fielding the same 4 (best) players that they have. The rule is archaic and outdated, it's designed to not let young players be bought and sold like pieces of meat but in reality it hampers them if they can't break into the top 4 of a 'big team' whereas they could easily get into the top 4 of a slightly smaller team and would get games thus enhancing their experience and careers. This provides way to much protection for the bigger teams with the most cash. Also some players like to travel abroad whilst they are young and competitive on the international scene, when they return home to Korea after a year or two away they should not be penalised for taking high level SC2 across the globe.
Another thing that could be done to assist more players getting a run out in Proleague is to encourage some of the better players to travel to foreign competitions. Jin Air seems to do this the most. The rest of the teams only really do it near the end of the season if a player just needs 'x' amounts of points to get to Blizzcon. We must remember that the players are paid a salary (some very large) to represent their team, and in Korea the best way to represent your team is to play well in Proleague, but perhaps the teams should also consider that the career of a Progamer isn't that long and offering them the chance to see the world and earn their own prize money is something they should support.
Give Prime Money... yeah sorry, but Prime was left with 4 players and zero chance to do something. Prime-matches have been like "yeah lol, will someone really lose a map to them?". Think about some additional money for prime so they can atleast fight against MVP and Samsung.
Let PartinG play. Just for the sake of good games, hype and fans, let him play (if he wants).
Bo7: I think most people have said enough about that. I know even Bo5 take alot of time, but with LotV the games will be faster and it gives so much more of everything, games, hypes, sick comebacks, 4:0 sweeps, chances for players and so on.
Finals: The final event was great but I allways think that it is a bit frustraiting, when the semi- and the Ro4 in the playoffs are Bo3 with Bo7s each, while the finals are only one Bo7. Maybe think something out for that case.
Marketing: Please give us the opportunity to buy jerseys, shirts and so on from all Kespa teams. Have you seen these Samsung jackets? SBENU stuff? SKT 1 jersey? Sell it, we will buy it!
ObserverPC for foreign casters: Make it possible that the english stream can either show their cam or the offical observercam.
RIP Sojung? Where is she?
Amateurs: Give the teams something for drafting or recruting fresh faces.
Let PartinG play. Just for the sake of good games, hype and fans, let him play (if he wants).
KeSpa is a Korean government organisation and they have rules, you can't just bend the rules for certain people, however if the rules are outdated they can be changed.
Let PartinG play. Just for the sake of good games, hype and fans, let him play (if he wants).
KeSpa is a Korean government organisation and they have rules, you can't just bend the rules for certain people, however if the rules are outdated they can be changed.
KeSpa is not a gouvernment organisation. And yeah, they have rules. But this rule seems to hurt not only special players, but also viewers, fans, hype and the games. Reducing the "cooldown" after leaving a team during contract time from 5 years to maybe 1 or 2 years could be possible.
Let PartinG play. Just for the sake of good games, hype and fans, let him play (if he wants).
KeSpa is a Korean government organisation and they have rules, you can't just bend the rules for certain people, however if the rules are outdated they can be changed.
KeSpa is not a gouvernment organisation. And yeah, they have rules. But this rule seems to hurt not only special players, but also viewers, fans, hype and the games. Reducing the "cooldown" after leaving a team during contract time from 5 years to maybe 1 or 2 years could be possible.
Well the parent org is the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism and KeSpa works within their remit, so it kind of is.... Also affiliate to Korean Olympic Comittee.
But I totally agree with your other point as I mentioned before
I just wanna reiterate from what others in the thread have said: 1) more proleague-unique maps; especially the crazy ones are fun to watch, and if they turn out to be imbalanced you can just remove them after 1 round 2) Kespa/Proleague/team merchandise please - let us support you and the teams 3) BRING BACK 10Q 10A!!!! I loved that show, it's so nice to get some of the players' personality and to see them in a casual setting with their friends
And lastly, if we are allowed to make unrealistic wishes, something could be done to rejuvenate Prime...though they may already be a lost cause...
I love Wolf, Brendan, and Moonglade, but I echo the sentiment of studying the players' histories better. No one mentioned that the last game of the finals was played between two former teammates who won Proleague only 2 years ago while members of STX Soul. I understand only Brendan and Moonglade were casting the last game, so maybe Wolf would have remembered.
What i would reaaaaally like to see is BO7 coming back, so as to see more subs playing and more emphasis on depth, rather than a team able to survive with a 1-2 punch
- SPL unique map with a map rotation closer to what BW had. Maybe take a look at SHOUTCRAFT Clan wars (even if the maps are all a little bit too much).
- A spoilerless platform where we can watch matches without having to search on teamiquid.
- I will buy EVERY KT Rolster merchandising available if in reasonable price. (No to 600$ jacket).
- Consider 2v2 OR archon mode (but not if in a Bo5 format). Would love to see Bo7 if schedule could permit it.
- Would love to be abble to watch SPL on weekends (but i guess not possible because schedule and tournaments).
- More empasis on player music could be fun. For exemple in order to reveal an ACE match player. Would love to hear the music before they enter the stage. Like in WWE
First of all I would like to thank the proleague organisation and tell them than this has been a pleasure watching proleague all year long.
For good points I would say that this year was a big improvement in term of organization compared to last year. I loved the studio, the stream was always on time and did not have any problem, it was a pleasure really.
Concerning improvement to be made, personnaly I would love to change the match format to Bo7. Why? not just because it would give me the occasion to see more of the best starcraft in the world, but also and mostly because it would allow us to see new, talented young players with a lot of potential that can not currently be used by coaches because a Bo5 is much less flexible than a Bo7. Let's be real, we saw most of the teams using the same 4 players over and over again, jin air or KT comes to mind for example. It would be exciting to see new rising stars get a shot a the big scene as well !!
To finish, I would love to see more tri-cast on the english stream. I don't really understand why there are 3 korean casters and only 2 english ones. This way I could see my favorite caster @Wolf comment all the matches. What a treat that would be... Wolf if you read this, thank you for making me love Starcraft so much over the past few years even though i never played it myself. And thanks again KesPa !!
The production was very good. You should take Starleague as good example to improve the production even.. building storys about the players and teams. And in my opinion you should add Bo7 again.. it is way better and I can only highlight the arguments my previos posters used!
did you ever consider instant replays or slow-mos after an exciting event during a game like they do in soccer or basketball. usually, big plays happen so quickly and especially newer viewer will likely miss it. and everybody else could still enjoy seeing it again. I suppose it should technically be possible.
additionally wcs did something else a little similar with a quick recap and analysis right after the game ended, highlighting important moments of the game and strong/weak points or mistakes/misreads/mindgames. would be great if that were to come to proleague, too.
those two points would in my view really strengthen the production value. what do you think?
On October 13 2015 10:13 pure.Wasted wrote: Bo7 format, PL maps, health bars, and hopefully the issues with PartinG and the other players can be sorted out.
On October 13 2015 02:33 Incognoto wrote:
On October 13 2015 01:52 Orr wrote:
2.Improved English casting -I give Wolf, Valdes, and Moonglade props for their passion. But their preparation is seriously lacking. It's understandable to not remember everything off the top with the large amount of various games/tournaments they are constantly covering. But having a job means coming prepared every single day to do it to the best of your ability. It's embarrassing and frustrating to hear them frequently forget some analogous game or match they are referring to while trying to remember. Often one that just happened a week or two ago, that even I can recall off the top of my head. Not knowing all the specific players/teams as they start broadcasting a match is quite unprofessional and demonstrates a general lack of preparedness. Either encourage them all to do a lot more prep work before each broadcast or else find casters who are willing to put in the research needed.
To counteract this:
These three casters are excellent and do a supremely professional job. they're AWESOME. tell them to keep it up
they're very good at talking about the game, the players, at providing a comfortable atmosphere
the comment i quoted makes no sense to me and i have never, ever found them unprofessional
During the PL finals, while INno and sOs were getting ready to go, Wolf said (I paraphrase) "I don't think I've ever seen INnoVation win a game in which he was behind in the early game."
Never mind how egregiously ill-conceived this statement is in general, as there is not a single pro on the planet about whom it's true. Literally the last time we saw INnoVation play was vs ByuL, and guess what, there was a game in that series where INno was significantly behind in the early game and came back and won it (Expedition Lost). So if Wolf could not remember ANY INnoVation games except literally the last series INno had played, on the biggest stage in the world, that would have been enough to disprove such a silly idea.
The English casting could be better but it's hardly something that desperately needs fixing. Yes, Wolf sometimes gets overexcited and says bizarre things that are just patently ridiculous (like him constantly insisting that ByuL is in a huge slump just because he hasn't won a finals, ignoring that ByuL has been clearly the best Zerg of 2015), but Moonglade helps keep it reasonable and honestly Brendan already knows more about SC2 than at least one very prominent SC2 caster I won't name.
All I'll say about the casting is please make sure you keep Moonglade and have him casting as often as possible. He's a very good balance of analysis and color commentary.
that sums it up for me quite well. I think we can't ask for much more - after all, casters have to be willing to move to Korea -, but the cockiness and douchebaggery sometimes is too much. Change is not necessarily necessary, but welcome.
Would it be possible to organize re-broacast of pro-league matchs at EU friendly hours (evening) ? I d like to watch proleague, but Korean time doesn't really fit for me and I often ¨"forget" to check VODs (only checking TLs highlight)
Also, I dream of the return of yearly pimpest plays.
Would it be possible to organize re-broacast of pro-league matchs at EU friendly hours (evening) ? I d like to watch proleague, but Korean time doesn't really fit for me and I often ¨"forget" to check VODs (only checking TLs highlight)
Also, I dream of the return of yearly pimpest plays.
There was a distinct lack of PartinG this season. This saddened me. Keeping him out of proleague for a round because skt is angry about losing him I sort of understand. Keeping him out of it for a year was beyond unreasonable and really reduced my interest in watching. My request for change is that whatever rule allowed skt to say "If we can't have him then nobody can" to be removed from proleague. Also bring back AC/DC intro (less important than the other request though :-D).
, I'd love to see Proleague go back to BO7, I think it requires the teams to have more depth, makes for more exciting matches and allows the rookies to see more play time.
people keep mentioning the KeSPA Amateur leagues that are running, but they're never streamed / televised. How about taking the winners and putting them in a showmatch just before PL starts maybe once a month?
It would be nice to see more new talent playing, and I'm sure it'd be fun for them to play in front of a crowd
This is starting to resemble a LoL reddit thread. Let's keep the feedback positive, the SC2 community is better than that.
1. 'I want parting back, he's my favourite', 'Your only doing this coz skt will be mad'. This is nonsense, their is a rule in KeSpa and i agree that rule is 'silly' but rather than just whinging saying 'i want parting back' let's address the 5 year rule as that is the cause of the problem.
2. Best of 7's. Okay pretty much everyone on here me included would prefer best of 7's. However the top brass as SpoTV or whoever is broadcasting Proleague has said this is DEFINITELY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, due to TV scheduling.
If you want Parting/Rain or any other of your favourite players back who at the moment cannot play, address the real issue, 'the 5 year rule', explain why you think it is unfair and maybe someone will listen.
If you want best of 7's then I'm truly sorry but your gonna have to muster up enough cash to buy Korean TV channel, good luck with that.
Some great ideas from the community to do with a KeSpa shop and ideas for the actual production like 10Q 10A etc, these are achievable without sounding like a whinging kid who looses all his league of legends games because he can't last hit.
Biggest feedback: - Health bars, or at least show health bars on units with lost hp/shield. It is a lot more fun to watch with this information.
Minor Feedback: - More POV shots. The split POV thing is kind of neat, but it's kind of small due to the fact there are two POV's shown at the same time with big borders taking up even more space.
- Always show game timer.
- Maybe release some replays and/or release entire games in fpvod (POV)
On October 14 2015 08:34 Hotshot wrote: Biggest feedback: - Health bars, or at least show health bars on units with lost hp/shield. It is a lot more fun to watch with this information.
Minor Feedback: - More POV shots. The split POV thing is kind of neat, but it's kind of small due to the fact there are two POV's shown at the same time with big borders taking up even more space.
- Always show game timer.
- Maybe release some replays and/or release entire games in fpvod (POV)
Curious on why the biggest feedback is the health bars for you. Personally, I would be a lot more interested in the other three things you listed.
Apparently this was being abused by spot-betters and was the reason it was removed in the first place. A real shame for fans that some people were abusing it.
On October 14 2015 08:34 Hotshot wrote: Biggest feedback: - Health bars, or at least show health bars on units with lost hp/shield. It is a lot more fun to watch with this information.
Minor Feedback: - More POV shots. The split POV thing is kind of neat, but it's kind of small due to the fact there are two POV's shown at the same time with big borders taking up even more space.
- Always show game timer.
- Maybe release some replays and/or release entire games in fpvod (POV)
Curious on why the biggest feedback is the health bars for you. Personally, I would be a lot more interested in the other three things you listed.
I find fights are a lot more interesting to watch. For example stalkers vs stalkers with good blink micro is a lot more impressive with health bars, or if a medivac is healing units you can judge how much longer it will take, or if a storm goes off you can see the HP go down, or if something is being chased you can see the shields/hp, or if hellion are killing workers you get a better sense of how many each shot will kill, etc, etc...
I find health bars get me into the game a lot more because I have a better understanding of it and similar feel to when I play myself. Without them it diminishes part of the fun.
Why is it more impressive? You see how many stalkers everybody has and you see who wins in the end. I will NEVER understand the need for more and more information if you wanna have exciting games. (learning is another thing entirely)
On October 14 2015 09:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: Why is it more impressive? You see how many stalkers everybody has and you see who wins in the end. I will NEVER understand the need for more and more information if you wanna have exciting games. (learning is another thing entirely)
If you see a stalker blink with very little HP it's much more impressive then seeing a stalker blink with no information. I do not need 'more and more information', I just want the basic information, and I think health bars in an RTS game qualifies as basic information. It makes judging battles/fights a lot easier thereby making it more 'exciting'.
Honestly, Proleague is awesome. The only thing I'd like to have back is a b07 format for many of the reasons that people are stating: allows teams to have more depth and allows rookies to see some playtime.
Please, please bring back Best of 7's, my KeSPA masters. We need to see more lesser known players playing in there.
Also, I'd like the Season Grand Finals to be an absolutely insane Best of 9. That is if the two teams in the finals can support a player roster of that size.
On October 12 2015 19:10 bartus88 wrote: The casting was mediocre. Wolf constantly says things that are not correct, he should really work on his game knowledge or switch to being a pure play-by-play caster. He should really stop predicting fights/situations because he does it all the time and is often wrong. On the other hand he can be a good hype-caster. Valdes is okay, he's not bad but he's not great either. The same goes for Moonglade, he has good knowledge of the game, but his general casting skills are meh. Anyway none of them are turning me off from watching, which is the most important part. I watch for the games and the players, not for the casters.
You worded my thoughts. I second this. They're not bad but they're not matching the quality of the games.
everyone who are asking the constand healthbars or 'damaged' heathbars probably never tried to stream and never really paid attention to what the picture is actually looks like when HB are on. it might work for low graphics fp-stream, but when it comes to tv-channel, all these bars just look silly. i'd say, stylisticly it's not 'like a pro tournament', but more 'like another videogame'.
i just mean, if you never tried to stream and just play the game and watch here and there, you are not really the person to teach koreans how to observe the game, because all the 'perfect' foreign observers actually learned from koreans who are doing this for 15 years allready.
also it was mentioned that korean observers tend to show a little less info to make more room for casters to get amazed, while foreign observers tend to show as much as they can spot. and everyone love how koreans casters work, right? so probably you're up to think what's the background of them doing so.
Thank you for the hard work that goes into making Pro League a reality. Thank you for giving us foreign fans a chance to have our voices heard, I hope that you get some valuable feedback and continue to reach out to the foreign StarCraft II community in the future.
I have quite a lot of feedback. After reading all 222 posts before mine, I realize a lot of it will be redundant, but I'm giving it anyway.
I love the English language casters. I got into watching eSports back in 2010 when Wings of Liberty was released and started with people like HDStarcraft, Husky, and TotalBiscuit's entry level Starcraft commentary, so I won't be quite so critical on the English casters as others are. I actually don't have any criticism for the English casters, they do a wonderful job and I can't really imagine anyone else that could do it better considering the level of commitment required.
My dream for the English language cast is to have all 3 of them casting every match. They seem to have problems quite frequently, so I'd ask the casters what they would need to be able to perform consistently and with higher quality and ensure that they got those materials. Things off the top of my head that I can think of are a casting computer and microphone.
In terms of production I think everything was acceptable. I can't speak to production as much simply because I'm not a producer, I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes. My only criticisms about the stream would be that the detailed information (supply, worker count, mineral/gas count) is a bit small at the top of the screen. Pro League seems to have a rather unique style to their casting interface and that's great. When I first started watching it was a little difficult to know where everything was and to get all of the critical information for what was going on in the game, but after a few casts I adjusted. There are lots of other little criticisms of the user interface that are peppered throughout the thread but I don't have more myself.
My dream for production would be for GSL, SSL, and Pro League to all use the same UI. That way there could be a codified and united Korean Starcraft viewing experience.What elements to include and not include, I don't really know. I don't much care, personally, about the game clock. I know there are several people that have stated that they would like to have it back. I think a nice compromise would be releasing replays, that way the people that want to study builds will have the resources that they need, i.e. the game clock.
As far as viewing experience is concerned, I can see that there is an issue with PRIME, however I don't know if there is actually anything that can be done about it. StarTale had the same problem until SBENU rescued them and infused them with lots of old and new-ish talent. That seems more like an internal KeSPA matter, but the people in the thread are correct in that the performance of PRIME this year detracted from the viewing experience and the competitiveness of Pro League overall.
This dovetails well with the issue of teams not utilizing the entirety of their rosters. While PRIME is floundering with 7 players on their roster as of round 4 this year, every other team has a minimum of 9 with MVP having 12 players on their roster and Samsung Galaxy having 11 (According to Liquipedia). While I don't want to advocate for a roster cap, as lots of professional US Sports teams have, there is a problem with players on a teams roster not seeing action.
My dream fix to both of these situations won't be liked by most, but it's my dream! I'd love to see an expansion of Pro League to include more teams, including a "Foreigner All-Star" team, maybe a team that you have to play through a tournament to get into, or maybe based on year-long performance (Top 8/10/12 Foreign WCS point recipients each year get to stay in a team house and play in Pro League).
Players like Snute have shown the ability to defeat top-tier Korean players, like Rain and Classic at IEM Season X - Shenzhen this year who were the reigning GSL and SSL Champions whom Snute defeated in Group Stage 2. There would also have to be greater partnerships between Korean and Foreign teams, and with KeSPA and Foreign teams.
As far as the problem with PRIME, with greater cooperation between Korean and Foreign teams combined with looser restrictions from KeSPA you could potentially add foreign players to your roster for a round and only bring them in to play in situations where your regulars aren't performing the way that they should. There isn't a lot to be lost here, because if what happened with PRIME this year happens again next year, you may as well field a few wildcards, unknown variables that people haven't been studying and practicing for in an attempt to steal a win. It would include the foreign fans more and give them a greater incentive to watch, the ones that don't already, since players that they know would be playing on Korea's biggest Starcraft stage.
While I have gained a greater appreciation of Pro League this year, especially towards the end of it, it's not my favorite Starcraft league. While it has it's flaws, the new WCS system is my favorite league, followed closely by IEM/Dreamhack Tour/events. This is honestly because of how much I enjoy the personalities, divergent play styles, and uniqueness that the foreign players bring to the game. While I'm certain that Korean players do the same, a lot of that is lost to me because I don't speak Korean and because of how Pro League is about the team. The cultural barrier combined with the language barrier makes it so that even if the interviews are translated there is this sense of constant diminution of self. The trash talk is also hard to understand, which I'm sure is because of my lacking cultural context to understand why what is being said is being said. There are lots of little meanings that just don't come through to the foreign audience. There's not the same sense of bravado that exists in other team games environments.
My dream would be a dedicated translator for the English stream, to not only translate what is being said, but the meaning behind it, so that foreign viewers can have a greater understanding of the nuance behind what's being said and to reveal what's not being said and what it means in the context of the game and the team play nature of Pro League.
As far as broadcasting is concerned, I don't have much of a problem with watching the live streams of Pro League right now as I'm unemployed, but it does air live at a very awkward time for most people. I like what's been done with the VoD's lately, as they used to be spoiled easily just by looking at how many were uploaded but recent matches have had uploads for the maximum game number so that the match isn't so easily spoiled. Kudos to you on that, it's a great, though I'm sure rather annoying for the people responsible for it, practice and keeps the matches fresh for those that don't get to watch the live stream.
My dream would be that there would be partnerships with different community casters (BaseTradeTV, OGaming, TakeTV, etc) so that for those that don't enjoy the English Language casters can have their pick of casters to view the games. Maybe sending out replays to community casters for the regular season games, and possibly looking at having additional casters for bigger playoff events, whether it be end of round or end of season playoffs, so that people can have choice in how they view Pro League. That would certainly increase the amount of attention that Pro League receives.
For Legacy of the Void Archon Mode has shown, through the RedBull BattleGrounds series this year, that it is interesting at the very least. I'm sure that there is a way to incorporate Archon Mode into Pro League, especially since Archon Mode demands teamwork and communication, emphasizing things that are already emphasized in Pro League. Despite what some may say, Archon Mode won't be a niche, "casual only", mode. I don't think that it should be the Ace match though, as many are suggesting.
If the first set of each match were to be Archon Mode, that would give teams that have large rosters, like everyone but Prime, the opportunity to showcase the players that they can't put into other situations either because of their decrease in in-house performance or whatever reasons. I can see Archon Mode being something that takes off with Korean fans, especially if the chemistry of the players works well with the crowd and there are interviews that go into detail about training regimens and other perpetration. There are all sorts of things that you can do with Archon Mode that will give fledgling teams like PRIME not only the ability to showcase their talent but also increase their visibility to not only Korean but also foreign audiences.
I also think that there needs to be the same kind of support for Starcraft that there is for things like FIFA and Tekken (I think) with commercials and advertisements. I don't watch those, so I don't know if there are already commercials for Starcraft in those other broadcasts, but I've seem many commercials for other eSports while watching Pro League and it would be awesome if there were either subtitled or English Language commercials that you could play at DreamHack, IEM, during WCS matches and other Starcraft events as well as other eSports. This Years Pro League has had a lot of amazing moments, like Rogue's Baneling drops vs herO or Bunny's widow mines vs sOs. If those highlights and others like it were advertised I'm sure there'd be a measurable uptick in viewership.
I realize that commercials aren't cheap to make or to air, but to increase the foreign audience you have to let them know that there is something to watch, and Pro League is one of the least talked about things during Foreign Starcraft events.
Lastly, I didn't watch a lot of Pro League before this year. I'd watch the occasional match if I was awake, but it wasn't until this year that I started watching every set of every match and the playoffs. But the one thing that I almost always come away from Pro League with is wanting to watch more. I love the amount of strategic depth that it adds to Starcraft, I love the reactions of the fans when their favorite team wins, I love the GG Girls, it's got so much potential, but it usually feels unsatisfying for me when I'm done watching a live stream or finished watching a VoD.
It wasn't until last month that I even knew that there was a twitter hashtag associated with Pro League. You guys need to step your social media game up, quite a bit. Not just KeSPA, but the teams as well. Again, I don't speak or read Korean, so I don't know what is going on with the native side of things, but as a foreigner that loves Starcraft with vehement passion I'd love for there to be more involvement with the community side of things. Whether it be the incorporation of tweets (please not automated) being read or displayed during casts, the creation of a shop where a percentage of the proceeds of sales go to the team that you're buying merchandise for, or something else to get people to connect not only with the official organization that's behind Pro League but also with each other.
I don't know what kind of fan involvement there is for the Korean fans, but I think there should be at least some level of involvement with the foreign fans of Pro League as well. I live in Michigan, USA, so I'll never be able to go to a BarCraft or other semi-social setting to watch Pro League (it starts at 5:30 AM for me) even if there were one to go to here, but that's a tangent for another day. During WCS this year I started live tweeting the matches. I've had the casters mention me on stream a few times, they favorite and reply to a lot of my tweets, and every time they do I get excited and overjoyed because I'm actually giving input and getting feedback. It's amazing what that can do for your viewing audience, the kind of connection that forms. I went from less than 500 tweets to more than 6,000 in the span of just a few months, almost all of them with all sorts of hashtags on them to connect to the community. I've had lots of conversations with other fans and really connected with people about the game in a way that I can't do in real life. That is missing, I believe, for a lot of fans of Pro League.
While there are live report threads here on Team Liquid, the interface and method of communicating isn't anywhere near as conducive as Twitter and Facebook which most people use one or the other on a regular basis. Get out in front of your audience, give them a way to connect not only to you but also to each other and you'll see the audience grow.
Be out there on the front line, responding to people as they tweet about things, answering questions, favorite and retweet the people that are watching your streams live, give them reason to come back and watch more and to bring friends. Get people that already watch Starcraft to watch more, which most people will oblige if they have the ability. Do random giveaways to people that are tweeting with your hashtag, encourage people to talk about the game, to talk about Pro League. Have the teams have their own hashtag so that people can pick a side and be invested in a team, rather than just a player. Expound upon and enumerate the rivalries that exist with the teams. I hear the casters mention Telecom wars all the time but aside from knowing that KT Rolster and SK Telecom are both telecommunication companies that sponsor eSports teams I don't have any context, I don't have a reason to be invested in that rivalry (That and I really think I'm more of SBENU or Jin Air kind of guy). One of my favorite parts of Wings of Liberty was the rivalry that existed between Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Evil Geniuses is still my favorite eSports team despite their showing of late in Starcraft 2 because I forged a bond with EG when HuK left Team Liquid for EG, and because iNcontroL has a direct line to my funny bone. There was a lot going on outside of the game between EG and TL at the time, and it was often expounded upon during matches between EG and TL players. That's the kind of commentary, the kind of little nuanced things, that can take Pro League from being good and entertaining to being megalithic.
I want to thank you guys for all of the hard work that you do. Without KeSPA and Pro League, there may not even be eSports today, much less a thriving and dedicated fan base to one of the top eSports, despite what many detractors may say during streams. Starcraft has proven that not only does it as a game have staying power but it's fans are dedicated, driven, and passionate about it. There are a lot of moves and decisions that you can make in the off-season to ensure that Pro League comes back stronger and better next year. I hope that the feedback that I and others have provided can be of some use, even if my dream scenarios are a little bit out of the way in terms of things that can be done.
On October 12 2015 19:10 bartus88 wrote: The casting was mediocre. Wolf constantly says things that are not correct, he should really work on his game knowledge or switch to being a pure play-by-play caster. He should really stop predicting fights/situations because he does it all the time and is often wrong. On the other hand he can be a good hype-caster. Valdes is okay, he's not bad but he's not great either. The same goes for Moonglade, he has good knowledge of the game, but his general casting skills are meh. Anyway none of them are turning me off from watching, which is the most important part. I watch for the games and the players, not for the casters.
You worded my thoughts. I second this. They're not bad but they're not matching the quality of the games.
for a while I couldn't stand the casting- valdes in particular was intolerable (and I think I only got used to wolf because of lots of previous gsl exposure at a time when he was by far the best of that new crop of gsl casters).
I started basically only watching the Korean commentary because of this. But when the three are together, recently, they've been a lot better. I know it's often not possible to have all 3 available, but perhaps having a rotating group of 3 out of a total of 4 casters could improve the quality of the cast significantly.
First of all, thank you for your hard work. ProLeague is great, improves every year, and I can't state how much we appreciate all your efforts !
Regarding what you could do better, I'll join what most people already pointed out:
Maps : rotate between maps more often and start to produce your own maps again please !
Format : Bo7 would be better, but I can understand time constraints due to TV broadcasting
English stream : consider adding english subtitles to you little video segements. Or do new ones specific for the foreign broadcast in mind (like the 10Q10A were).
Merchandising : Consider opening an e-shop where we could buy team or player related merchandise ?
Re-broadcast : a lot of StarCraft fans are old enough to be working. In EU, PL happens around the middle of the day, so we can't watch it live. Consider maybe re-broadcasting it during EU-friendly times ? I'm sure it wouldn't cost you a lot and there'll always be people tuning in.
Again, thank you for what you're doing, you guys rock ! <3
On October 14 2015 16:38 mrarthursimon wrote: Thank you for the hard work that goes into making Pro League a reality. Thank you for giving us foreign fans a chance to have our voices heard, I hope that you get some valuable feedback and continue to reach out to the foreign StarCraft II community in the future.
I have quite a lot of feedback. After reading all 222 posts before mine, I realize a lot of it will be redundant, but I'm giving it anyway.
I love the English language casters. I got into watching eSports back in 2010 when Wings of Liberty was released and started with people like HDStarcraft, Husky, and TotalBiscuit's entry level Starcraft commentary, so I won't be quite so critical on the English casters as others are. I actually don't have any criticism for the English casters, they do a wonderful job and I can't really imagine anyone else that could do it better considering the level of commitment required.
My dream for the English language cast is to have all 3 of them casting every match. They seem to have problems quite frequently, so I'd ask the casters what they would need to be able to perform consistently and with higher quality and ensure that they got those materials. Things off the top of my head that I can think of are a casting computer and microphone. Snute
In terms of production I think everything was acceptable. I can't speak to production as much simply because I'm not a producer, I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes. My only criticisms about the stream would be that the detailed information (supply, worker count, mineral/gas count) is a bit small at the top of the screen. Pro League seems to have a rather unique style to their casting interface and that's great. When I first started watching it was a little difficult to know where everything was and to get all of the critical information for what was going on in the game, but after a few casts I adjusted. There are lots of other little criticisms of the user interface that are peppered throughout the thread but I don't have more myself.
My dream for production would be for GSL, SSL, and Pro League to all use the same UI. That way there could be a codified and united Korean Starcraft viewing experience.What elements to include and not include, I don't really know. I don't much care, personally, about the game clock. I know there are several people that have stated that they would like to have it back. I think a nice compromise would be releasing replays, that way the people that want to study builds will have the resources that they need, i.e. the game clock.
As far as viewing experience is concerned, I can see that there is an issue with PRIME, however I don't know if there is actually anything that can be done about it. StarTale had the same problem until SBENU rescued them and infused them with lots of old and new-ish talent. That seems more like an internal KeSPA matter, but the people in the thread are correct in that the performance of PRIME this year detracted from the viewing experience and the competitiveness of Pro League overall.
This dovetails well with the issue of teams not utilizing the entirety of their rosters. While PRIME is floundering with 7 players on their roster as of round 4 this year, every other team has a minimum of 9 with MVP having 12 players on their roster and Samsung Galaxy having 11 (According to Liquipedia). While I don't want to advocate for a roster cap, as lots of professional US Sports teams have, there is a problem with players on a teams roster not seeing action.
My dream fix to both of these situations won't be liked by most, but it's my dream! I'd love to see an expansion of Pro League to include more teams, including a "Foreigner All-Star" team, maybe a team that you have to play through a tournament to get into, or maybe based on year-long performance (Top 8/10/12 Foreign WCS point recipients each year get to stay in a team house and play in Pro League).
Players like Snute have shown the ability to defeat top-tier Korean players, like Rain and Classic at IEM Season X - Shenzhen this year who were the reigning GSL and SSL Champions whom Snute defeated in Group Stage 2. There would also have to be greater partnerships between Korean and Foreign teams, and with KeSPA and Foreign teams.
As far as the problem with PRIME, with greater cooperation between Korean and Foreign teams combined with looser restrictions from KeSPA you could potentially add foreign players to your roster for a round and only bring them in to play in situations where your regulars aren't performing the way that they should. There isn't a lot to be lost here, because if what happened with PRIME this year happens again next year, you may as well field a few wildcards, unknown variables that people haven't been studying and practicing for in an attempt to steal a win. It would include the foreign fans more and give them a greater incentive to watch, the ones that don't already, since players that they know would be playing on Korea's biggest Starcraft stage.
While I have gained a greater appreciation of Pro League this year, especially towards the end of it, it's not my favorite Starcraft league. While it has it's flaws, the new WCS system is my favorite league, followed closely by IEM/Dreamhack Tour/events. This is honestly because of how much I enjoy the personalities, divergent play styles, and uniqueness that the foreign players bring to the game. While I'm certain that Korean players do the same, a lot of that is lost to me because I don't speak Korean and because of how Pro League is about the team. The cultural barrier combined with the language barrier makes it so that even if the interviews are translated there is this sense of constant diminution of self. The trash talk is also hard to understand, which I'm sure is because of my lacking cultural context to understand why what is being said is being said. There are lots of little meanings that just don't come through to the foreign audience. There's not the same sense of bravado that exists in other team games environments.
My dream would be a dedicated translator for the English stream, to not only translate what is being said, but the meaning behind it, so that foreign viewers can have a greater understanding of the nuance behind what's being said and to reveal what's not being said and what it means in the context of the game and the team play nature of Pro League.
As far as broadcasting is concerned, I don't have much of a problem with watching the live streams of Pro League right now as I'm unemployed, but it does air live at a very awkward time for most people. I like what's been done with the VoD's lately, as they used to be spoiled easily just by looking at how many were uploaded but recent matches have had uploads for the maximum game number so that the match isn't so easily spoiled. Kudos to you on that, it's a great, though I'm sure rather annoying for the people responsible for it, practice and keeps the matches fresh for those that don't get to watch the live stream.
My dream would be that there would be partnerships with different community casters (BaseTradeTV, OGaming, TakeTV, etc) so that for those that don't enjoy the English Language casters can have their pick of casters to view the games. Maybe sending out replays to community casters for the regular season games, and possibly looking at having additional casters for bigger playoff events, whether it be end of round or end of season playoffs, so that people can have choice in how they view Pro League. That would certainly increase the amount of attention that Pro League receives.
For Legacy of the Void Archon Mode has shown, through the RedBull BattleGrounds series this year, that it is interesting at the very least. I'm sure that there is a way to incorporate Archon Mode into Pro League, especially since Archon Mode demands teamwork and communication, emphasizing things that are already emphasized in Pro League. Despite what some may say, Archon Mode won't be a niche, "casual only", mode. I don't think that it should be the Ace match though, as many are suggesting.
If the first set of each match were to be Archon Mode, that would give teams that have large rosters, like everyone but Prime, the opportunity to showcase the players that they can't put into other situations either because of their decrease in in-house performance or whatever reasons. I can see Archon Mode being something that takes off with Korean fans, especially if the chemistry of the players works well with the crowd and there are interviews that go into detail about training regimens and other perpetration. There are all sorts of things that you can do with Archon Mode that will give fledgling teams like PRIME not only the ability to showcase their talent but also increase their visibility to not only Korean but also foreign audiences.
I also think that there needs to be the same kind of support for Starcraft that there is for things like FIFA and Tekken (I think) with commercials and advertisements. I don't watch those, so I don't know if there are already commercials for Starcraft in those other broadcasts, but I've seem many commercials for other eSports while watching Pro League and it would be awesome if there were either subtitled or English Language commercials that you could play at DreamHack, IEM, during WCS matches and other Starcraft events as well as other eSports. This Years Pro League has had a lot of amazing moments, like Rogue's Baneling drops vs herO or Bunny's widow mines vs sOs. If those highlights and others like it were advertised I'm sure there'd be a measurable uptick in viewership.
I realize that commercials aren't cheap to make or to air, but to increase the foreign audience you have to let them know that there is something to watch, and Pro League is one of the least talked about things during Foreign Starcraft events.
Lastly, I didn't watch a lot of Pro League before this year. I'd watch the occasional match if I was awake, but it wasn't until this year that I started watching every set of every match and the playoffs. But the one thing that I almost always come away from Pro League with is wanting to watch more. I love the amount of strategic depth that it adds to Starcraft, I love the reactions of the fans when their favorite team wins, I love the GG Girls, it's got so much potential, but it usually feels unsatisfying for me when I'm done watching a live stream or finished watching a VoD.
It wasn't until last month that I even knew that there was a twitter hashtag associated with Pro League. You guys need to step your social media game up, quite a bit. Not just KeSPA, but the teams as well. Again, I don't speak or read Korean, so I don't know what is going on with the native side of things, but as a foreigner that loves Starcraft with vehement passion I'd love for there to be more involvement with the community side of things. Whether it be the incorporation of tweets (please not automated) being read or displayed during casts, the creation of a shop where a percentage of the proceeds of sales go to the team that you're buying merchandise for, or something else to get people to connect not only with the official organization that's behind Pro League but also with each other.
I don't know what kind of fan involvement there is for the Korean fans, but I think there should be at least some level of involvement with the foreign fans of Pro League as well. I live in Michigan, USA, so I'll never be able to go to a BarCraft or other semi-social setting to watch Pro League (it starts at 5:30 AM for me) even if there were one to go to here, but that's a tangent for another day. During WCS this year I started live tweeting the matches. I've had the casters mention me on stream a few times, they favorite and reply to a lot of my tweets, and every time they do I get excited and overjoyed because I'm actually giving input and getting feedback. It's amazing what that can do for your viewing audience, the kind of connection that forms. I went from less than 500 tweets to more than 6,000 in the span of just a few months, almost all of them with all sorts of hashtags on them to connect to the community. I've had lots of conversations with other fans and really connected with people about the game in a way that I can't do in real life. That is missing, I believe, for a lot of fans of Pro League.
While there are live report threads here on Team Liquid, the interface and method of communicating isn't anywhere near as conducive as Twitter and Facebook which most people use one or the other on a regular basis. Get out in front of your audience, give them a way to connect not only to you but also to each other and you'll see the audience grow.
Be out there on the front line, responding to people as they tweet about things, answering questions, favorite and retweet the people that are watching your streams live, give them reason to come back and watch more and to bring friends. Get people that already watch Starcraft to watch more, which most people will oblige if they have the ability. Do random giveaways to people that are tweeting with your hashtag, encourage people to talk about the game, to talk about Pro League. Have the teams have their own hashtag so that people can pick a side and be invested in a team, rather than just a player. Expound upon and enumerate the rivalries that exist with the teams. I hear the casters mention Telecom wars all the time but aside from knowing that KT Rolster and SK Telecom are both telecommunication companies that sponsor eSports teams I don't have any context, I don't have a reason to be invested in that rivalry (That and I really think I'm more of SBENU or Jin Air kind of guy). One of my favorite parts of Wings of Liberty was the rivalry that existed between Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Evil Geniuses is still my favorite eSports team despite their showing of late in Starcraft 2 because I forged a bond with EG when HuK left Team Liquid for EG, and because iNcontroL has a direct line to my funny bone. There was a lot going on outside of the game between EG and TL at the time, and it was often expounded upon during matches between EG and TL players. That's the kind of commentary, the kind of little nuanced things, that can take Pro League from being good and entertaining to being megalithic.
I want to thank you guys for all of the hard work that you do. Without KeSPA and Pro League, there may not even be eSports today, much less a thriving and dedicated fan base to one of the top eSports, despite what many detractors may say during streams. Starcraft has proven that not only does it as a game have staying power but it's fans are dedicated, driven, and passionate about it. There are a lot of moves and decisions that you can make in the off-season to ensure that Pro League comes back stronger and better next year. I hope that the feedback that I and others have provided can be of some use, even if my dream scenarios are a little bit out of the way in terms of things that can be done.
tldr? you seem to have put a lot of effort into this post. I hope the kespa post just above yours doesn't mean your feedback won't be considered anymore... ;-)
Mrarthursimon has covered so much in his post that I will keep my feedback limited to this particular thing that springs to mind right away when I think of improvement:
The Post-Season Grand Final Event at Lotte World It was awesome to watch and a great conclusion of the season. Nice shots of the large crowd cheering them on. Great games also. Some things could have been better though: the English audio broadcast was not very well balanced, deafening oversteering sound when first turning on the cast, a missing microphone for Moonglade at the start. Secondly, the format was a bit anti-climactic. After two weeks of best of three matches of best of seven games, it was a bit of a bummer that the biggest final of all was just a best of 7 games without any all-kill aspects. I understand that the event had to take place on a single day at Lotte World, so you can't have day 3 fall off because one team won both Bo7's on day 1 and day 2. Still I felt there could have been a more satisfying way to crown the champions of the year. I was watching together with my friends and during the long breaks in between games, we tried to think of a format that would fit in a single day, that wouldn't take too long and would combine both the all-kill and line-up formats for an awesome combination of preparation games, snipe builds and creative on-the-fly play. I outline what we came up with below.
Alternative Ace Format
The entire match will be held on a single day and is best of 9 games (first to 5 wins).
Some time before the match (e.g. a week) a line-up is made for the first 7 matches on randomly ordered maps (all maps in pool) and players are assigned by both teams to come out on these maps. Additionally an 'Ace' player is nominated by each team in advance, but no opponent is given yet. The Ace player cannot be in any of the line-up games. Shortly after (still a week before the match) it is revealed to the other team who comes out on what map and who will be the Ace. So contrary to the regular Proleague season, the Ace player is already known in advance by the opposing team.
During the match the line-up is followed only until one team reaches match point (4 games won). At that moment the match becomes 'all-kill' format. The team that has lost four games sends their Ace player to save them from defeat. Now the team that has won four games can pick any player of their roster that has not played yet, except their own Ace, to try and defeat / snipe the enemy Ace player to get the fifth win for their team. If the Ace wins, the team that is ahead can pick another player that hasn't played yet to try again, and so on. If it goes to the final 9th match both Aces will face each other. The maps during the all-kill phase will be loser's pick. This means the first time that the Ace comes out, he can select a map himself, but from then on the maps will be picked by the team that is ahead trying to defeat the Ace player. Any map that the Ace hasn't played on yet during the match can be chosen. (Only maps that were already played in a line-up game can be repeated.)
This format will provide quality games all throughout the match. The teams will try their best to get to match point first, because it's a huge advantage to pick maps against the enemy Ace. So both teams will likely send their strongest players in the first couple of games. The weaker players on the team will be focused on preparing snipes against the enemy Ace, a specific build on a specific map against a predetermined Ace player. Ultimate preparation for the sniper; no preparation for the Ace, he has to wait and see what happens on match day and use superior play rather than surprise to win. A balanced format that features team play and preparation, but also allows the strongest player of a team to shine. It's all there in the ultimate team showdown. A fitting end to the Proleague year.
Besides the yearly Post-Season Finals, this Ace format could also be used during the 1-day play-offs at the end of every season. This will familiarize the fans with the format over the course of the year and will also provide that healthy combination of team and Ace in those single day Proleague Final events.
Thanks for reading! If you have any questions feel free to ask.
TL;DR Combined Line-up + All-Kill Format. The Ace comes out as 'savior' of the team that is facing defeat; attempts to win all remaining games against an onslaught of snipers and ultimately the enemy Ace. It's epic awesomeness to the max!
On October 14 2015 22:07 Sihrtogg wrote: Mrarthursimon has covered so much in his post that I will keep my feedback limited to this particular thing that springs to mind right away when I think of improvement:
The Post-Season Grand Final Event at Lotte World It was awesome to watch and a great conclusion of the season. Nice shots of the large crowd cheering them on. Great games also. Some things could have been better though: the English audio broadcast was not very well balanced, deafening oversteering sound when first turning on the cast, a missing microphone for Moonglade at the start. Secondly, the format was a bit anti-climactic. After two weeks of best of three matches of best of seven games, it was a bit of a bummer the biggest final of all was just a best of 7 games without any all-kill aspects. I understand that the event had to take place on a single day at Lotte World, so you can't have day 3 fall off because one team won both Bo7's on day 1 and day 2. Still I felt there could have been a more satisfying way to crown the champions of the year. I was watching together with my friends and during the long breaks in between games, we tried to think of a format that would fit in a single day, that wouldn't take too long and would combine both the all-kill and line-up formats for an awesome combination of preparation games, snipe builds and creative on-the-fly play. I outline what we came up with below.
Alternative Ace Format
The entire match will be held on a single day and is best of 9 games (first to 5 wins).
Some time before the match (e.g. a week) a line-up is made for the first 7 matches on randomly ordered maps (all maps in pool) and players are assigned by both teams to come out on these maps. Additionally an 'Ace' player is nominated by each team in advance, but no opponent is given yet. The Ace player cannot be in any of the line-up games. Shortly after (still a week before the match) it is revealed to the other team who comes out on what map and who will be the Ace. So contrary to the regular Proleague season, the Ace player is already known in advance by the opposing team.
During the match the line-up is followed only until one team reaches match point (4 games won). At that moment the match becomes 'all-kill' format. The team that has lost four games sends their Ace player to save them from defeat. Now the team that has won four games can pick any player of their roster that has not played yet, except the Ace, to try and defeat / snipe the Ace player to get the fifth win for their team. If the Ace wins, the team that is ahead can pick another player that hasn't played yet to try again, and so on. If it goes to the final 9th match both Aces will face each other. The maps during the all-kill phase will be loser's pick. This means the first time that the Ace comes out, he can select a map himself, but from then on the maps will be picked by the team that is ahead trying to defeat the Ace player. Any map that the Ace hasn't played on yet during the match can be chosen. (Only maps that were already played in a line-up game can be repeated.)
This format will provide quality games all throughout the match. The teams will try their best to get to match point first, because it's a huge advantage to pick maps against the enemy Ace. So both teams will likely send their strongest players in the first couple of games. The weaker players on the team will be focused on preparing snipes against the enemy Ace, a specific build on a specific map against a predetermined Ace player. Ultimate preparation for the sniper; no preparation for the Ace, he has to wait and see what happens on match day and use superior play rather than surprise to win. A balanced format that features team play and preparation, but also allows the strongest player of a team to shine. It's all there in the ultimate team showdown. A fitting end to the Proleague year.
Besides the yearly Post-Season Finals, this Ace format could also be used during the 1-day play-offs at the end of every season. This will familiarize the fans with the format over the course of the year and will also provide that healthy combination of team and Ace in those single day Proleague Final events.
Thanks for reading! If you have any questions feel free to ask.
TL;DR Combined Line-up + All-Kill Format. The Ace comes out as 'savior' of the team that is facing defeat; attempts to win all remaining games against an onslaught of snipers and ultimately the enemy Ace. It's epic awesomeness to the max!
On October 14 2015 22:21 MrMischelito wrote: i like that ideaw
I just hope it's not too late...
On October 14 2015 16:33 Chuddinater wrote: Thank you for your feedback. I have read over all of your suggestions and we will work on improving next season with your suggestions in mind.
I hope you continue to support StarCraft II Proleague and the Korean StarCraft II scene.
i just want to make sure we can see the game timer. GSL's overlay had it removed long ago and it really screws with me after 10 minutes in. little things like that, production tab etc are great to improve upon. don't worry about too much information on the screen. we all want to see the numbers, all of them.
and i agree bo7 was nice for proleague. and the format switchups would be nice, one week all-kill, one week non or something.
custom maps are also important. the more maps the better. you would imagine with a larger selection of maps that more of them would be better, inherently. there aren't too many maps imo, so we should see a lot more. the weird ones are great, too. we get to see pro players really use their tactical skills.
On October 15 2015 00:14 fenix404 wrote: i just want to make sure we can see the game timer. GSL's overlay had it removed long ago and it really screws with me after 10 minutes in. little things like that, production tab etc are great to improve upon. don't worry about too much information on the screen. we all want to see the numbers, all of them.
I disagree. I think people don't need to see all the numbers. Watching numbers moving isn't fun. I hate to be one of those people, but in BW, a game that actually is exciting, the only numbers you could see were supply, current money and sometimes apm. To a degree, not knowing exactly what each player has makes it a little more exciting, specially when you watched korean casters and you don't know what's going on. Having lots of numbers and the production tab on the screen isn't fun, and it's confusing for newcomers.
On an unrelated note, I'd like to comment on casters making predictions. It doesn't bother me when they're wrong, it bothers me that they try. If the game's so predictable, what's the point of watching it at all? I don't know if anyone saw the leaked instructions from Vince McMahon to the commentators of WWE that came out a couple of months ago, but those instructions covered things like these in great detail, and lots of them made sense. I know WWE and SC2 are totally different but they both break down to 2 guys fighting each other, and the pacing of the match and how the audience recieves it hinges on the commentators on both WWE and SC2. Furthermore, WWE is a far older, far more successful business than SC2 and I'm certain they have a lot more experience with commentators. I think SC2 casters would do well to read those documents.
On October 15 2015 00:14 fenix404 wrote: i just want to make sure we can see the game timer. GSL's overlay had it removed long ago and it really screws with me after 10 minutes in. little things like that, production tab etc are great to improve upon. don't worry about too much information on the screen. we all want to see the numbers, all of them.
I disagree. I think people don't need to see all the numbers. Watching numbers moving isn't fun. I hate to be one of those people, but in BW, a game that actually is exciting, the only numbers you could see were supply, current money and sometimes apm. To a degree, not knowing exactly what each player has makes it a little more exciting, specially when you watched korean casters and you don't know what's going on. Having lots of numbers and the production tab on the screen isn't fun, and it's confusing for newcomers.
On an unrelated note, I'd like to comment on casters making predictions. It doesn't bother me when they're wrong, it bothers me that they try. If the game's so predictable, what's the point of watching it at all? I don't know if anyone saw the leaked instructions from Vince McMahon to the commentators of WWE that came out a couple of months ago, but those instructions covered things like these in great detail, and lots of them made sense. I know WWE and SC2 are totally different but they both break down to 2 guys fighting each other, and the pacing of the match and how the audience recieves it hinges on the commentators on both WWE and SC2. Furthermore, WWE is a far older, far more successful business than SC2 and I'm certain they have a lot more experience with commentators. I think SC2 casters would do well to read those documents.
WWE's current commentary is fucking garbage though and shouldn't be emulated. I see what you're saying though.
I guess I could also voice the strangeness of locking PartinG so hard. That alone probably was the difference between me only watching a few matches instead of following the whole season
On October 15 2015 00:14 fenix404 wrote: i just want to make sure we can see the game timer. GSL's overlay had it removed long ago and it really screws with me after 10 minutes in. little things like that, production tab etc are great to improve upon. don't worry about too much information on the screen. we all want to see the numbers, all of them.
I disagree. I think people don't need to see all the numbers. Watching numbers moving isn't fun. I hate to be one of those people, but in BW, a game that actually is exciting, the only numbers you could see were supply, current money and sometimes apm. To a degree, not knowing exactly what each player has makes it a little more exciting, specially when you watched korean casters and you don't know what's going on. Having lots of numbers and the production tab on the screen isn't fun, and it's confusing for newcomers.
On an unrelated note, I'd like to comment on casters making predictions. It doesn't bother me when they're wrong, it bothers me that they try. If the game's so predictable, what's the point of watching it at all? I don't know if anyone saw the leaked instructions from Vince McMahon to the commentators of WWE that came out a couple of months ago, but those instructions covered things like these in great detail, and lots of them made sense. I know WWE and SC2 are totally different but they both break down to 2 guys fighting each other, and the pacing of the match and how the audience recieves it hinges on the commentators on both WWE and SC2. Furthermore, WWE is a far older, far more successful business than SC2 and I'm certain they have a lot more experience with commentators. I think SC2 casters would do well to read those documents.
WWE's current commentary is fucking garbage though and shouldn't be emulated. I see what you're saying though.
I'm sorry but I've only ever seen spanish WWE commentary and it rules. I assume they got the same memos the english commentators got.
On October 15 2015 03:09 Starecat wrote: It's kinda funny people bashing Wolf and his gang for stuff that Artosis and Tasteless do everytime.
I had the exact same thought. I personally have a high amount or dislike for Tasteless and Artosis. But that's just personal preference. I 100% of the time choose a cast that doesn't have them over ones that do.
I am also not to picky with the casters. Ive watched many sc2 games and havent hated any of them (one expecting was a very amateur caster in a starbow replay rooting for terran way to hard).
On October 14 2015 16:38 mrarthursimon wrote: Thank you for the hard work that goes into making Pro League a reality. Thank you for giving us foreign fans a chance to have our voices heard, I hope that you get some valuable feedback and continue to reach out to the foreign StarCraft II community in the future.
I have quite a lot of feedback. After reading all 222 posts before mine, I realize a lot of it will be redundant, but I'm giving it anyway.
I love the English language casters. I got into watching eSports back in 2010 when Wings of Liberty was released and started with people like HDStarcraft, Husky, and TotalBiscuit's entry level Starcraft commentary, so I won't be quite so critical on the English casters as others are. I actually don't have any criticism for the English casters, they do a wonderful job and I can't really imagine anyone else that could do it better considering the level of commitment required.
My dream for the English language cast is to have all 3 of them casting every match. They seem to have problems quite frequently, so I'd ask the casters what they would need to be able to perform consistently and with higher quality and ensure that they got those materials. Things off the top of my head that I can think of are a casting computer and microphone. Snute
In terms of production I think everything was acceptable. I can't speak to production as much simply because I'm not a producer, I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes. My only criticisms about the stream would be that the detailed information (supply, worker count, mineral/gas count) is a bit small at the top of the screen. Pro League seems to have a rather unique style to their casting interface and that's great. When I first started watching it was a little difficult to know where everything was and to get all of the critical information for what was going on in the game, but after a few casts I adjusted. There are lots of other little criticisms of the user interface that are peppered throughout the thread but I don't have more myself.
My dream for production would be for GSL, SSL, and Pro League to all use the same UI. That way there could be a codified and united Korean Starcraft viewing experience.What elements to include and not include, I don't really know. I don't much care, personally, about the game clock. I know there are several people that have stated that they would like to have it back. I think a nice compromise would be releasing replays, that way the people that want to study builds will have the resources that they need, i.e. the game clock.
As far as viewing experience is concerned, I can see that there is an issue with PRIME, however I don't know if there is actually anything that can be done about it. StarTale had the same problem until SBENU rescued them and infused them with lots of old and new-ish talent. That seems more like an internal KeSPA matter, but the people in the thread are correct in that the performance of PRIME this year detracted from the viewing experience and the competitiveness of Pro League overall.
This dovetails well with the issue of teams not utilizing the entirety of their rosters. While PRIME is floundering with 7 players on their roster as of round 4 this year, every other team has a minimum of 9 with MVP having 12 players on their roster and Samsung Galaxy having 11 (According to Liquipedia). While I don't want to advocate for a roster cap, as lots of professional US Sports teams have, there is a problem with players on a teams roster not seeing action.
My dream fix to both of these situations won't be liked by most, but it's my dream! I'd love to see an expansion of Pro League to include more teams, including a "Foreigner All-Star" team, maybe a team that you have to play through a tournament to get into, or maybe based on year-long performance (Top 8/10/12 Foreign WCS point recipients each year get to stay in a team house and play in Pro League).
Players like Snute have shown the ability to defeat top-tier Korean players, like Rain and Classic at IEM Season X - Shenzhen this year who were the reigning GSL and SSL Champions whom Snute defeated in Group Stage 2. There would also have to be greater partnerships between Korean and Foreign teams, and with KeSPA and Foreign teams.
As far as the problem with PRIME, with greater cooperation between Korean and Foreign teams combined with looser restrictions from KeSPA you could potentially add foreign players to your roster for a round and only bring them in to play in situations where your regulars aren't performing the way that they should. There isn't a lot to be lost here, because if what happened with PRIME this year happens again next year, you may as well field a few wildcards, unknown variables that people haven't been studying and practicing for in an attempt to steal a win. It would include the foreign fans more and give them a greater incentive to watch, the ones that don't already, since players that they know would be playing on Korea's biggest Starcraft stage.
While I have gained a greater appreciation of Pro League this year, especially towards the end of it, it's not my favorite Starcraft league. While it has it's flaws, the new WCS system is my favorite league, followed closely by IEM/Dreamhack Tour/events. This is honestly because of how much I enjoy the personalities, divergent play styles, and uniqueness that the foreign players bring to the game. While I'm certain that Korean players do the same, a lot of that is lost to me because I don't speak Korean and because of how Pro League is about the team. The cultural barrier combined with the language barrier makes it so that even if the interviews are translated there is this sense of constant diminution of self. The trash talk is also hard to understand, which I'm sure is because of my lacking cultural context to understand why what is being said is being said. There are lots of little meanings that just don't come through to the foreign audience. There's not the same sense of bravado that exists in other team games environments.
My dream would be a dedicated translator for the English stream, to not only translate what is being said, but the meaning behind it, so that foreign viewers can have a greater understanding of the nuance behind what's being said and to reveal what's not being said and what it means in the context of the game and the team play nature of Pro League.
As far as broadcasting is concerned, I don't have much of a problem with watching the live streams of Pro League right now as I'm unemployed, but it does air live at a very awkward time for most people. I like what's been done with the VoD's lately, as they used to be spoiled easily just by looking at how many were uploaded but recent matches have had uploads for the maximum game number so that the match isn't so easily spoiled. Kudos to you on that, it's a great, though I'm sure rather annoying for the people responsible for it, practice and keeps the matches fresh for those that don't get to watch the live stream.
My dream would be that there would be partnerships with different community casters (BaseTradeTV, OGaming, TakeTV, etc) so that for those that don't enjoy the English Language casters can have their pick of casters to view the games. Maybe sending out replays to community casters for the regular season games, and possibly looking at having additional casters for bigger playoff events, whether it be end of round or end of season playoffs, so that people can have choice in how they view Pro League. That would certainly increase the amount of attention that Pro League receives.
For Legacy of the Void Archon Mode has shown, through the RedBull BattleGrounds series this year, that it is interesting at the very least. I'm sure that there is a way to incorporate Archon Mode into Pro League, especially since Archon Mode demands teamwork and communication, emphasizing things that are already emphasized in Pro League. Despite what some may say, Archon Mode won't be a niche, "casual only", mode. I don't think that it should be the Ace match though, as many are suggesting.
If the first set of each match were to be Archon Mode, that would give teams that have large rosters, like everyone but Prime, the opportunity to showcase the players that they can't put into other situations either because of their decrease in in-house performance or whatever reasons. I can see Archon Mode being something that takes off with Korean fans, especially if the chemistry of the players works well with the crowd and there are interviews that go into detail about training regimens and other perpetration. There are all sorts of things that you can do with Archon Mode that will give fledgling teams like PRIME not only the ability to showcase their talent but also increase their visibility to not only Korean but also foreign audiences.
I also think that there needs to be the same kind of support for Starcraft that there is for things like FIFA and Tekken (I think) with commercials and advertisements. I don't watch those, so I don't know if there are already commercials for Starcraft in those other broadcasts, but I've seem many commercials for other eSports while watching Pro League and it would be awesome if there were either subtitled or English Language commercials that you could play at DreamHack, IEM, during WCS matches and other Starcraft events as well as other eSports. This Years Pro League has had a lot of amazing moments, like Rogue's Baneling drops vs herO or Bunny's widow mines vs sOs. If those highlights and others like it were advertised I'm sure there'd be a measurable uptick in viewership.
I realize that commercials aren't cheap to make or to air, but to increase the foreign audience you have to let them know that there is something to watch, and Pro League is one of the least talked about things during Foreign Starcraft events.
Lastly, I didn't watch a lot of Pro League before this year. I'd watch the occasional match if I was awake, but it wasn't until this year that I started watching every set of every match and the playoffs. But the one thing that I almost always come away from Pro League with is wanting to watch more. I love the amount of strategic depth that it adds to Starcraft, I love the reactions of the fans when their favorite team wins, I love the GG Girls, it's got so much potential, but it usually feels unsatisfying for me when I'm done watching a live stream or finished watching a VoD.
It wasn't until last month that I even knew that there was a twitter hashtag associated with Pro League. You guys need to step your social media game up, quite a bit. Not just KeSPA, but the teams as well. Again, I don't speak or read Korean, so I don't know what is going on with the native side of things, but as a foreigner that loves Starcraft with vehement passion I'd love for there to be more involvement with the community side of things. Whether it be the incorporation of tweets (please not automated) being read or displayed during casts, the creation of a shop where a percentage of the proceeds of sales go to the team that you're buying merchandise for, or something else to get people to connect not only with the official organization that's behind Pro League but also with each other.
I don't know what kind of fan involvement there is for the Korean fans, but I think there should be at least some level of involvement with the foreign fans of Pro League as well. I live in Michigan, USA, so I'll never be able to go to a BarCraft or other semi-social setting to watch Pro League (it starts at 5:30 AM for me) even if there were one to go to here, but that's a tangent for another day. During WCS this year I started live tweeting the matches. I've had the casters mention me on stream a few times, they favorite and reply to a lot of my tweets, and every time they do I get excited and overjoyed because I'm actually giving input and getting feedback. It's amazing what that can do for your viewing audience, the kind of connection that forms. I went from less than 500 tweets to more than 6,000 in the span of just a few months, almost all of them with all sorts of hashtags on them to connect to the community. I've had lots of conversations with other fans and really connected with people about the game in a way that I can't do in real life. That is missing, I believe, for a lot of fans of Pro League.
While there are live report threads here on Team Liquid, the interface and method of communicating isn't anywhere near as conducive as Twitter and Facebook which most people use one or the other on a regular basis. Get out in front of your audience, give them a way to connect not only to you but also to each other and you'll see the audience grow.
Be out there on the front line, responding to people as they tweet about things, answering questions, favorite and retweet the people that are watching your streams live, give them reason to come back and watch more and to bring friends. Get people that already watch Starcraft to watch more, which most people will oblige if they have the ability. Do random giveaways to people that are tweeting with your hashtag, encourage people to talk about the game, to talk about Pro League. Have the teams have their own hashtag so that people can pick a side and be invested in a team, rather than just a player. Expound upon and enumerate the rivalries that exist with the teams. I hear the casters mention Telecom wars all the time but aside from knowing that KT Rolster and SK Telecom are both telecommunication companies that sponsor eSports teams I don't have any context, I don't have a reason to be invested in that rivalry (That and I really think I'm more of SBENU or Jin Air kind of guy). One of my favorite parts of Wings of Liberty was the rivalry that existed between Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Evil Geniuses is still my favorite eSports team despite their showing of late in Starcraft 2 because I forged a bond with EG when HuK left Team Liquid for EG, and because iNcontroL has a direct line to my funny bone. There was a lot going on outside of the game between EG and TL at the time, and it was often expounded upon during matches between EG and TL players. That's the kind of commentary, the kind of little nuanced things, that can take Pro League from being good and entertaining to being megalithic.
I want to thank you guys for all of the hard work that you do. Without KeSPA and Pro League, there may not even be eSports today, much less a thriving and dedicated fan base to one of the top eSports, despite what many detractors may say during streams. Starcraft has proven that not only does it as a game have staying power but it's fans are dedicated, driven, and passionate about it. There are a lot of moves and decisions that you can make in the off-season to ensure that Pro League comes back stronger and better next year. I hope that the feedback that I and others have provided can be of some use, even if my dream scenarios are a little bit out of the way in terms of things that can be done.
tldr? you seem to have put a lot of effort into this post. I hope the kespa post just above yours doesn't mean your feedback won't be considered anymore... ;-)
On October 14 2015 16:38 mrarthursimon wrote: Thank you for the hard work that goes into making Pro League a reality. Thank you for giving us foreign fans a chance to have our voices heard, I hope that you get some valuable feedback and continue to reach out to the foreign StarCraft II community in the future.
I have quite a lot of feedback. After reading all 222 posts before mine, I realize a lot of it will be redundant, but I'm giving it anyway.
I love the English language casters. I got into watching eSports back in 2010 when Wings of Liberty was released and started with people like HDStarcraft, Husky, and TotalBiscuit's entry level Starcraft commentary, so I won't be quite so critical on the English casters as others are. I actually don't have any criticism for the English casters, they do a wonderful job and I can't really imagine anyone else that could do it better considering the level of commitment required.
My dream for the English language cast is to have all 3 of them casting every match. They seem to have problems quite frequently, so I'd ask the casters what they would need to be able to perform consistently and with higher quality and ensure that they got those materials. Things off the top of my head that I can think of are a casting computer and microphone.
In terms of production I think everything was acceptable. I can't speak to production as much simply because I'm not a producer, I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes. My only criticisms about the stream would be that the detailed information (supply, worker count, mineral/gas count) is a bit small at the top of the screen. Pro League seems to have a rather unique style to their casting interface and that's great. When I first started watching it was a little difficult to know where everything was and to get all of the critical information for what was going on in the game, but after a few casts I adjusted. There are lots of other little criticisms of the user interface that are peppered throughout the thread but I don't have more myself.
My dream for production would be for GSL, SSL, and Pro League to all use the same UI. That way there could be a codified and united Korean Starcraft viewing experience.What elements to include and not include, I don't really know. I don't much care, personally, about the game clock. I know there are several people that have stated that they would like to have it back. I think a nice compromise would be releasing replays, that way the people that want to study builds will have the resources that they need, i.e. the game clock.
As far as viewing experience is concerned, I can see that there is an issue with PRIME, however I don't know if there is actually anything that can be done about it. StarTale had the same problem until SBENU rescued them and infused them with lots of old and new-ish talent. That seems more like an internal KeSPA matter, but the people in the thread are correct in that the performance of PRIME this year detracted from the viewing experience and the competitiveness of Pro League overall.
This dovetails well with the issue of teams not utilizing the entirety of their rosters. While PRIME is floundering with 7 players on their roster as of round 4 this year, every other team has a minimum of 9 with MVP having 12 players on their roster and Samsung Galaxy having 11 (According to Liquipedia). While I don't want to advocate for a roster cap, as lots of professional US Sports teams have, there is a problem with players on a teams roster not seeing action.
My dream fix to both of these situations won't be liked by most, but it's my dream! I'd love to see an expansion of Pro League to include more teams, including a "Foreigner All-Star" team, maybe a team that you have to play through a tournament to get into, or maybe based on year-long performance (Top 8/10/12 Foreign WCS point recipients each year get to stay in a team house and play in Pro League).
Players like Snute have shown the ability to defeat top-tier Korean players, like Rain and Classic at IEM Season X - Shenzhen this year who were the reigning GSL and SSL Champions whom Snute defeated in Group Stage 2. There would also have to be greater partnerships between Korean and Foreign teams, and with KeSPA and Foreign teams.
As far as the problem with PRIME, with greater cooperation between Korean and Foreign teams combined with looser restrictions from KeSPA you could potentially add foreign players to your roster for a round and only bring them in to play in situations where your regulars aren't performing the way that they should. There isn't a lot to be lost here, because if what happened with PRIME this year happens again next year, you may as well field a few wildcards, unknown variables that people haven't been studying and practicing for in an attempt to steal a win. It would include the foreign fans more and give them a greater incentive to watch, the ones that don't already, since players that they know would be playing on Korea's biggest Starcraft stage.
While I have gained a greater appreciation of Pro League this year, especially towards the end of it, it's not my favorite Starcraft league. While it has it's flaws, the new WCS system is my favorite league, followed closely by IEM/Dreamhack Tour/events. This is honestly because of how much I enjoy the personalities, divergent play styles, and uniqueness that the foreign players bring to the game. While I'm certain that Korean players do the same, a lot of that is lost to me because I don't speak Korean and because of how Pro League is about the team. The cultural barrier combined with the language barrier makes it so that even if the interviews are translated there is this sense of constant diminution of self. The trash talk is also hard to understand, which I'm sure is because of my lacking cultural context to understand why what is being said is being said. There are lots of little meanings that just don't come through to the foreign audience. There's not the same sense of bravado that exists in other team games environments.
My dream would be a dedicated translator for the English stream, to not only translate what is being said, but the meaning behind it, so that foreign viewers can have a greater understanding of the nuance behind what's being said and to reveal what's not being said and what it means in the context of the game and the team play nature of Pro League.
As far as broadcasting is concerned, I don't have much of a problem with watching the live streams of Pro League right now as I'm unemployed, but it does air live at a very awkward time for most people. I like what's been done with the VoD's lately, as they used to be spoiled easily just by looking at how many were uploaded but recent matches have had uploads for the maximum game number so that the match isn't so easily spoiled. Kudos to you on that, it's a great, though I'm sure rather annoying for the people responsible for it, practice and keeps the matches fresh for those that don't get to watch the live stream.
My dream would be that there would be partnerships with different community casters (BaseTradeTV, OGaming, TakeTV, etc) so that for those that don't enjoy the English Language casters can have their pick of casters to view the games. Maybe sending out replays to community casters for the regular season games, and possibly looking at having additional casters for bigger playoff events, whether it be end of round or end of season playoffs, so that people can have choice in how they view Pro League. That would certainly increase the amount of attention that Pro League receives.
For Legacy of the Void Archon Mode has shown, through the RedBull BattleGrounds series this year, that it is interesting at the very least. I'm sure that there is a way to incorporate Archon Mode into Pro League, especially since Archon Mode demands teamwork and communication, emphasizing things that are already emphasized in Pro League. Despite what some may say, Archon Mode won't be a niche, "casual only", mode. I don't think that it should be the Ace match though, as many are suggesting.
If the first set of each match were to be Archon Mode, that would give teams that have large rosters, like everyone but Prime, the opportunity to showcase the players that they can't put into other situations either because of their decrease in in-house performance or whatever reasons. I can see Archon Mode being something that takes off with Korean fans, especially if the chemistry of the players works well with the crowd and there are interviews that go into detail about training regimens and other perpetration. There are all sorts of things that you can do with Archon Mode that will give fledgling teams like PRIME not only the ability to showcase their talent but also increase their visibility to not only Korean but also foreign audiences.
I also think that there needs to be the same kind of support for Starcraft that there is for things like FIFA and Tekken (I think) with commercials and advertisements. I don't watch those, so I don't know if there are already commercials for Starcraft in those other broadcasts, but I've seem many commercials for other eSports while watching Pro League and it would be awesome if there were either subtitled or English Language commercials that you could play at DreamHack, IEM, during WCS matches and other Starcraft events as well as other eSports. This Years Pro League has had a lot of amazing moments, like Rogue's Baneling drops vs herO or Bunny's widow mines vs sOs. If those highlights and others like it were advertised I'm sure there'd be a measurable uptick in viewership.
I realize that commercials aren't cheap to make or to air, but to increase the foreign audience you have to let them know that there is something to watch, and Pro League is one of the least talked about things during Foreign Starcraft events.
Lastly, I didn't watch a lot of Pro League before this year. I'd watch the occasional match if I was awake, but it wasn't until this year that I started watching every set of every match and the playoffs. But the one thing that I almost always come away from Pro League with is wanting to watch more. I love the amount of strategic depth that it adds to Starcraft, I love the reactions of the fans when their favorite team wins, I love the GG Girls, it's got so much potential, but it usually feels unsatisfying for me when I'm done watching a live stream or finished watching a VoD.
It wasn't until last month that I even knew that there was a twitter hashtag associated with Pro League. You guys need to step your social media game up, quite a bit. Not just KeSPA, but the teams as well. Again, I don't speak or read Korean, so I don't know what is going on with the native side of things, but as a foreigner that loves Starcraft with vehement passion I'd love for there to be more involvement with the community side of things. Whether it be the incorporation of tweets (please not automated) being read or displayed during casts, the creation of a shop where a percentage of the proceeds of sales go to the team that you're buying merchandise for, or something else to get people to connect not only with the official organization that's behind Pro League but also with each other.
I don't know what kind of fan involvement there is for the Korean fans, but I think there should be at least some level of involvement with the foreign fans of Pro League as well. I live in Michigan, USA, so I'll never be able to go to a BarCraft or other semi-social setting to watch Pro League (it starts at 5:30 AM for me) even if there were one to go to here, but that's a tangent for another day. During WCS this year I started live tweeting the matches. I've had the casters mention me on stream a few times, they favorite and reply to a lot of my tweets, and every time they do I get excited and overjoyed because I'm actually giving input and getting feedback. It's amazing what that can do for your viewing audience, the kind of connection that forms. I went from less than 500 tweets to more than 6,000 in the span of just a few months, almost all of them with all sorts of hashtags on them to connect to the community. I've had lots of conversations with other fans and really connected with people about the game in a way that I can't do in real life. That is missing, I believe, for a lot of fans of Pro League.
While there are live report threads here on Team Liquid, the interface and method of communicating isn't anywhere near as conducive as Twitter and Facebook which most people use one or the other on a regular basis. Get out in front of your audience, give them a way to connect not only to you but also to each other and you'll see the audience grow.
Be out there on the front line, responding to people as they tweet about things, answering questions, favorite and retweet the people that are watching your streams live, give them reason to come back and watch more and to bring friends. Get people that already watch Starcraft to watch more, which most people will oblige if they have the ability. Do random giveaways to people that are tweeting with your hashtag, encourage people to talk about the game, to talk about Pro League. Have the teams have their own hashtag so that people can pick a side and be invested in a team, rather than just a player. Expound upon and enumerate the rivalries that exist with the teams. I hear the casters mention Telecom wars all the time but aside from knowing that KT Rolster and SK Telecom are both telecommunication companies that sponsor eSports teams I don't have any context, I don't have a reason to be invested in that rivalry (That and I really think I'm more of SBENU or Jin Air kind of guy). One of my favorite parts of Wings of Liberty was the rivalry that existed between Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Evil Geniuses is still my favorite eSports team despite their showing of late in Starcraft 2 because I forged a bond with EG when HuK left Team Liquid for EG, and because iNcontroL has a direct line to my funny bone. There was a lot going on outside of the game between EG and TL at the time, and it was often expounded upon during matches between EG and TL players. That's the kind of commentary, the kind of little nuanced things, that can take Pro League from being good and entertaining to being megalithic.
I want to thank you guys for all of the hard work that you do. Without KeSPA and Pro League, there may not even be eSports today, much less a thriving and dedicated fan base to one of the top eSports, despite what many detractors may say during streams. Starcraft has proven that not only does it as a game have staying power but it's fans are dedicated, driven, and passionate about it. There are a lot of moves and decisions that you can make in the off-season to ensure that Pro League comes back stronger and better next year. I hope that the feedback that I and others have provided can be of some use, even if my dream scenarios are a little bit out of the way in terms of things that can be done.
On October 14 2015 16:38 mrarthursimon wrote: Thank you for the hard work that goes into making Pro League a reality. Thank you for giving us foreign fans a chance to have our voices heard, I hope that you get some valuable feedback and continue to reach out to the foreign StarCraft II community in the future.
I have quite a lot of feedback. After reading all 222 posts before mine, I realize a lot of it will be redundant, but I'm giving it anyway.
I love the English language casters. I got into watching eSports back in 2010 when Wings of Liberty was released and started with people like HDStarcraft, Husky, and TotalBiscuit's entry level Starcraft commentary, so I won't be quite so critical on the English casters as others are. I actually don't have any criticism for the English casters, they do a wonderful job and I can't really imagine anyone else that could do it better considering the level of commitment required.
My dream for the English language cast is to have all 3 of them casting every match. They seem to have problems quite frequently, so I'd ask the casters what they would need to be able to perform consistently and with higher quality and ensure that they got those materials. Things off the top of my head that I can think of are a casting computer and microphone. Snute
In terms of production I think everything was acceptable. I can't speak to production as much simply because I'm not a producer, I don't really know what is going on behind the scenes. My only criticisms about the stream would be that the detailed information (supply, worker count, mineral/gas count) is a bit small at the top of the screen. Pro League seems to have a rather unique style to their casting interface and that's great. When I first started watching it was a little difficult to know where everything was and to get all of the critical information for what was going on in the game, but after a few casts I adjusted. There are lots of other little criticisms of the user interface that are peppered throughout the thread but I don't have more myself.
My dream for production would be for GSL, SSL, and Pro League to all use the same UI. That way there could be a codified and united Korean Starcraft viewing experience.What elements to include and not include, I don't really know. I don't much care, personally, about the game clock. I know there are several people that have stated that they would like to have it back. I think a nice compromise would be releasing replays, that way the people that want to study builds will have the resources that they need, i.e. the game clock.
As far as viewing experience is concerned, I can see that there is an issue with PRIME, however I don't know if there is actually anything that can be done about it. StarTale had the same problem until SBENU rescued them and infused them with lots of old and new-ish talent. That seems more like an internal KeSPA matter, but the people in the thread are correct in that the performance of PRIME this year detracted from the viewing experience and the competitiveness of Pro League overall.
This dovetails well with the issue of teams not utilizing the entirety of their rosters. While PRIME is floundering with 7 players on their roster as of round 4 this year, every other team has a minimum of 9 with MVP having 12 players on their roster and Samsung Galaxy having 11 (According to Liquipedia). While I don't want to advocate for a roster cap, as lots of professional US Sports teams have, there is a problem with players on a teams roster not seeing action.
My dream fix to both of these situations won't be liked by most, but it's my dream! I'd love to see an expansion of Pro League to include more teams, including a "Foreigner All-Star" team, maybe a team that you have to play through a tournament to get into, or maybe based on year-long performance (Top 8/10/12 Foreign WCS point recipients each year get to stay in a team house and play in Pro League).
Players like Snute have shown the ability to defeat top-tier Korean players, like Rain and Classic at IEM Season X - Shenzhen this year who were the reigning GSL and SSL Champions whom Snute defeated in Group Stage 2. There would also have to be greater partnerships between Korean and Foreign teams, and with KeSPA and Foreign teams.
As far as the problem with PRIME, with greater cooperation between Korean and Foreign teams combined with looser restrictions from KeSPA you could potentially add foreign players to your roster for a round and only bring them in to play in situations where your regulars aren't performing the way that they should. There isn't a lot to be lost here, because if what happened with PRIME this year happens again next year, you may as well field a few wildcards, unknown variables that people haven't been studying and practicing for in an attempt to steal a win. It would include the foreign fans more and give them a greater incentive to watch, the ones that don't already, since players that they know would be playing on Korea's biggest Starcraft stage.
While I have gained a greater appreciation of Pro League this year, especially towards the end of it, it's not my favorite Starcraft league. While it has it's flaws, the new WCS system is my favorite league, followed closely by IEM/Dreamhack Tour/events. This is honestly because of how much I enjoy the personalities, divergent play styles, and uniqueness that the foreign players bring to the game. While I'm certain that Korean players do the same, a lot of that is lost to me because I don't speak Korean and because of how Pro League is about the team. The cultural barrier combined with the language barrier makes it so that even if the interviews are translated there is this sense of constant diminution of self. The trash talk is also hard to understand, which I'm sure is because of my lacking cultural context to understand why what is being said is being said. There are lots of little meanings that just don't come through to the foreign audience. There's not the same sense of bravado that exists in other team games environments.
My dream would be a dedicated translator for the English stream, to not only translate what is being said, but the meaning behind it, so that foreign viewers can have a greater understanding of the nuance behind what's being said and to reveal what's not being said and what it means in the context of the game and the team play nature of Pro League.
As far as broadcasting is concerned, I don't have much of a problem with watching the live streams of Pro League right now as I'm unemployed, but it does air live at a very awkward time for most people. I like what's been done with the VoD's lately, as they used to be spoiled easily just by looking at how many were uploaded but recent matches have had uploads for the maximum game number so that the match isn't so easily spoiled. Kudos to you on that, it's a great, though I'm sure rather annoying for the people responsible for it, practice and keeps the matches fresh for those that don't get to watch the live stream.
My dream would be that there would be partnerships with different community casters (BaseTradeTV, OGaming, TakeTV, etc) so that for those that don't enjoy the English Language casters can have their pick of casters to view the games. Maybe sending out replays to community casters for the regular season games, and possibly looking at having additional casters for bigger playoff events, whether it be end of round or end of season playoffs, so that people can have choice in how they view Pro League. That would certainly increase the amount of attention that Pro League receives.
For Legacy of the Void Archon Mode has shown, through the RedBull BattleGrounds series this year, that it is interesting at the very least. I'm sure that there is a way to incorporate Archon Mode into Pro League, especially since Archon Mode demands teamwork and communication, emphasizing things that are already emphasized in Pro League. Despite what some may say, Archon Mode won't be a niche, "casual only", mode. I don't think that it should be the Ace match though, as many are suggesting.
If the first set of each match were to be Archon Mode, that would give teams that have large rosters, like everyone but Prime, the opportunity to showcase the players that they can't put into other situations either because of their decrease in in-house performance or whatever reasons. I can see Archon Mode being something that takes off with Korean fans, especially if the chemistry of the players works well with the crowd and there are interviews that go into detail about training regimens and other perpetration. There are all sorts of things that you can do with Archon Mode that will give fledgling teams like PRIME not only the ability to showcase their talent but also increase their visibility to not only Korean but also foreign audiences.
I also think that there needs to be the same kind of support for Starcraft that there is for things like FIFA and Tekken (I think) with commercials and advertisements. I don't watch those, so I don't know if there are already commercials for Starcraft in those other broadcasts, but I've seem many commercials for other eSports while watching Pro League and it would be awesome if there were either subtitled or English Language commercials that you could play at DreamHack, IEM, during WCS matches and other Starcraft events as well as other eSports. This Years Pro League has had a lot of amazing moments, like Rogue's Baneling drops vs herO or Bunny's widow mines vs sOs. If those highlights and others like it were advertised I'm sure there'd be a measurable uptick in viewership.
I realize that commercials aren't cheap to make or to air, but to increase the foreign audience you have to let them know that there is something to watch, and Pro League is one of the least talked about things during Foreign Starcraft events.
Lastly, I didn't watch a lot of Pro League before this year. I'd watch the occasional match if I was awake, but it wasn't until this year that I started watching every set of every match and the playoffs. But the one thing that I almost always come away from Pro League with is wanting to watch more. I love the amount of strategic depth that it adds to Starcraft, I love the reactions of the fans when their favorite team wins, I love the GG Girls, it's got so much potential, but it usually feels unsatisfying for me when I'm done watching a live stream or finished watching a VoD.
It wasn't until last month that I even knew that there was a twitter hashtag associated with Pro League. You guys need to step your social media game up, quite a bit. Not just KeSPA, but the teams as well. Again, I don't speak or read Korean, so I don't know what is going on with the native side of things, but as a foreigner that loves Starcraft with vehement passion I'd love for there to be more involvement with the community side of things. Whether it be the incorporation of tweets (please not automated) being read or displayed during casts, the creation of a shop where a percentage of the proceeds of sales go to the team that you're buying merchandise for, or something else to get people to connect not only with the official organization that's behind Pro League but also with each other.
I don't know what kind of fan involvement there is for the Korean fans, but I think there should be at least some level of involvement with the foreign fans of Pro League as well. I live in Michigan, USA, so I'll never be able to go to a BarCraft or other semi-social setting to watch Pro League (it starts at 5:30 AM for me) even if there were one to go to here, but that's a tangent for another day. During WCS this year I started live tweeting the matches. I've had the casters mention me on stream a few times, they favorite and reply to a lot of my tweets, and every time they do I get excited and overjoyed because I'm actually giving input and getting feedback. It's amazing what that can do for your viewing audience, the kind of connection that forms. I went from less than 500 tweets to more than 6,000 in the span of just a few months, almost all of them with all sorts of hashtags on them to connect to the community. I've had lots of conversations with other fans and really connected with people about the game in a way that I can't do in real life. That is missing, I believe, for a lot of fans of Pro League.
While there are live report threads here on Team Liquid, the interface and method of communicating isn't anywhere near as conducive as Twitter and Facebook which most people use one or the other on a regular basis. Get out in front of your audience, give them a way to connect not only to you but also to each other and you'll see the audience grow.
Be out there on the front line, responding to people as they tweet about things, answering questions, favorite and retweet the people that are watching your streams live, give them reason to come back and watch more and to bring friends. Get people that already watch Starcraft to watch more, which most people will oblige if they have the ability. Do random giveaways to people that are tweeting with your hashtag, encourage people to talk about the game, to talk about Pro League. Have the teams have their own hashtag so that people can pick a side and be invested in a team, rather than just a player. Expound upon and enumerate the rivalries that exist with the teams. I hear the casters mention Telecom wars all the time but aside from knowing that KT Rolster and SK Telecom are both telecommunication companies that sponsor eSports teams I don't have any context, I don't have a reason to be invested in that rivalry (That and I really think I'm more of SBENU or Jin Air kind of guy). One of my favorite parts of Wings of Liberty was the rivalry that existed between Evil Geniuses and Team Liquid. Evil Geniuses is still my favorite eSports team despite their showing of late in Starcraft 2 because I forged a bond with EG when HuK left Team Liquid for EG, and because iNcontroL has a direct line to my funny bone. There was a lot going on outside of the game between EG and TL at the time, and it was often expounded upon during matches between EG and TL players. That's the kind of commentary, the kind of little nuanced things, that can take Pro League from being good and entertaining to being megalithic.
I want to thank you guys for all of the hard work that you do. Without KeSPA and Pro League, there may not even be eSports today, much less a thriving and dedicated fan base to one of the top eSports, despite what many detractors may say during streams. Starcraft has proven that not only does it as a game have staying power but it's fans are dedicated, driven, and passionate about it. There are a lot of moves and decisions that you can make in the off-season to ensure that Pro League comes back stronger and better next year. I hope that the feedback that I and others have provided can be of some use, even if my dream scenarios are a little bit out of the way in terms of things that can be done.
tldr? you seem to have put a lot of effort into this post. I hope the kespa post just above yours doesn't mean your feedback won't be considered anymore... ;-)
EPT
), please keep the Proleague format. Allkill/Winners League in playoffs is okay, but I really prefer the PL-format for the regular rounds. It's more about the team than one star player carrying everything. In PL-format you need at least two.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/axNv2xE.jpg)
And then add there some fun challenges and stuff 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v5GJkIt.png)
![[image loading]](http://i61.tinypic.com/b6y0aq.png)
