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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On April 28 2015 14:54 testi759 wrote: Haha taeja being #3 is like making some basketball player who won alot of college and high school championships ahead of players who won actual NBA championships. Its just silly. or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles) it's not an analogous argument | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On April 28 2015 15:13 lichter wrote: or rating john stockton (0 titles) higher than derek fisher (5 titles) it's not an analogous argument But you really have to put Taeja ahead of the most successfull player of SC2 ? Because no one tops MC in terms of prize money. Also the quality of the tournaments/opponents etc.... . ok that's subjective but man... Taeja over MC ? The guy is the most successfull player and protoss of all time.... | ||
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Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
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PepsiMaxxxx
Sweden5452 Posts
On April 28 2015 15:27 Gorlin wrote: I'm curious if the bulk of the people complaining about Taeja's placement actually followed the scene closely since Taeja's first rise. Taeja has had multiple several-month long stretches (that is, every summer), over three years, where he would just crap on almost every other player in the world, if not all of them, as was discussed in the article itself. There was no chance in hell that Taeja would not land in the top 5. You're absolutely crazy if you think Taeja shouldn't even be in the top 10 due to never winning a GSL. Shit, the lack of a GSL is what makes deciding if he's a top 2 player of all time a relatively hard decision, not if he's a top 10 It's not just GSL, It's the lack of winning when it matters. But who cares, it's just personal preference in the end. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On April 28 2015 15:26 FFW_Rude wrote: But you really have to put Taeja ahead of the most successfull player of SC2 ? Because no one tops MC in terms of prize money. Also the quality of the tournaments/opponents etc.... . ok that's subjective but man... Taeja over MC ? The guy is the most successfull player and protoss of all time.... i dont particularly like taeja but taeja > mc makes sense given the criteria used for this list. | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 28 2015 15:37 lichter wrote: i dont particularly like taeja but taeja > mc makes sense given the criteria used for this list. Hard to argue that. Even if you look at MC's accomplishments, the wins and the level of competition he played against are certainly inferior to he top players like life/mvp. I also can sort of see justifying Taeja>MC in account that a lot of Taeja's wins have been during the KeSPA era. His win at IEM Shenzen and the semifinals run at Blizzcon are his most impressive performances, in my opinion (looking back, his 2 gsl semi-final runs are actually fairly impressive). MC's biggest claims are his incredible consistency, his innovation, and his GSL wins (which are among the least impressive gsl wins in the history of the gsl). It's still a tough decision regardless, and I would probably put Taeja below MC because of his complete lack of success in Korea. I've already stated my opinion on this, and so have others in the thread multiple times, but I find it unjustifiable to put Taeja this high on the list without more success in Korean individual leagues. Edit: ' In terms of judging criteria to select, how is it that you rating Blizzcon>GSL? That seems absurd to me, particularly considering most gsl fields are at least as rigorous as the world finals. Furthermore, the preparation based format is really far superior to the weekend tournament format. Remember the server issues and how it ruined the Innovation/taeja series? (granted, InnoVation showed a weakness in this moment). In some way if you choose to value weekend tournaments so highly, you should also have considered proleague records highly. This would at least give the KeSPA players more of a reasonable chance. Didn't Flash and InnoVation go like 40-20 in 2013 proleague? How does that not mean anything? My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything? | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On April 28 2015 14:37 bulletbill wrote: As a terran player i just feel its necessary to say that i feel that MC added more innovation to Protoss than Teaga did for Terran. And while in comparing outright tournament wins mc vs teaga, with teaga pulling a bit ahead. I think it needs to be said that its odd for a player who seems to lack the ability to handle/prepare for preparation style tournaments such as wcs and gsl, also worth noting that wcs was an easier version of gsl in which teaga still seemed unable to perp himself for. I think When you consider that MC won more money, did more for protoss in terms of innovation, has proven himself very strong at both preparation tornys and weekend tournaments, and finally and for most has shown himself to be more relevant over a longer period of time. With the "GREAT RESET" that sent most of the koreans back home it should be noted that MC went further than teaga, and i know team support isnt a factor in the criteria but its important to note that mc is basically being sponsored, where as teaga has a better team to help him get further in prep tournaments and he still failed to get further than MC. However MC did have an easier group than teaga it doesn't change the fact that MC advanced and teaga didn't and sometimes when your comparing players that are neck in neck you got to compare there current form a little bit higher than there over all form. Especially when you consider that MC was relaventant/dominate for a longer period of time. Sorry for grammer and spelling mistakes I support this argumentation. If MC's early wins are being discounted due to lower competition, then those of MarineKing and MVP must be even more, as they happened to be during a period of terran strength. This means MarineKing should have dropped out of the list completely and MVP can hardly be #1 over Life now anymore. In the end it all comes down to where you want to see Taeja. To me MMA is much more impressive. He managed to be on top in korea at a time when terran dominance in leagues vanished against Mr.Terran himself in the finals of a GSL. Then he went to europe and managed to work himself up to the top there too against some of the best players around that moved to europe (MC, MVP). All this in real major tournaments: GSL and WCS', which require alot of consistency to go through and be on the top in the end. This alone is more impressive than what taeja did imo. But then MMA again moves to korea and manages to establish himself at the very top again (GSL Global Finals and in GSL). Taeja won alot of tournaments during a time where players living in korea didn't take foreign tournaments that serious and tried to not reveal their best builds and keep them for GSL and other stuff in korea. Also he was obviously underrated by others a bit and therefore they didn't exactly prepare against Taeja in the beginning of his dominant period. Therefore to me Taeja belongs to the #5-10 of this ranking. As you can see, stuchio, this argumentation is as least as right as yours. Such rankings can hardly be objective and always reflect the opinion. I am just going to wonder how you wanna justify MVP over Life or the other way round in your ranking with all this being said. There hardly can be an objective measurment. MVP: - most real major titles - alot of them were happening in GomTvT era - must be discounted due to lower competition in the beginning of SC2 (such as with MC) - most brilliant player the terran race has seen in SC2 (along with MC and Life) Life: - less major titles (speaking of GSLs here) - some in era of Winfestors - not reliant on metagames, creates his own metagame there is the XvZ metagame and the XvLife metagame :D - most versatile player sc2 has seen - dominance in different metagame eras - most brilliant player zerg race has seen (along with MVP and MC) Really hard decision what? And in the end there is no objective criteria to make a decision on based on how you argue for the fact that you couldn't decide elsewise than Taeja being #3. Taeja didnt invent anything (other than MC, Life and MVP). He was good in a certain period of metagame that he didn't help to develop much himself, yes he understood it best (just as e.g. innovation was in his period but innovation mostly focused on korean events and innovation basically developed TvZ during his era, which taeja never did). Nevertheless he never dominated in korea (yes he dominated koreans abroad in a relatively short period of time, probably for the reasons I named above). In my subjective view, taeja can't objectively be #3 in this list. That puts too much away from other players achievement. That teamliquid overrates their own players relevance in the history of SC2 has an hollow sound to me. | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 28 2015 16:08 LSN wrote: I support this argumentation. If MC's early wins are being discounted due to lower competition, then those of MarineKing and MVP must be even more, as they happened to be during a period of terran strength. This means MarineKing should have dropped out of the list completely and MVP can hardly be #1 over Life now anymore. In the end it all comes down to where you want to see Taeja. To me MMA is much more impressive. He managed to be on top in korea at a time when terran dominance in leagues vanished against Mr.Terran himself in the finals of a GSL. Then he went to europe and managed to work himself up to the top there too against some of the best players around that moved to europe (MC, MVP). All this in real major tournaments: GSL and WCS', which require alot of consistency to go through and be on the top in the end. This alone is more impressive than what taeja did imo. But then MMA again moves to korea and manages to establish himself at the very top again (GSL Global Finals and in GSL). Taeja won alot of tournaments during a time where players living in korea didn't take foreign tournaments that serious and tried to not reveal their best builds and keep them for GSL and other stuff in korea. Also he was obviously underrated by others a bit and therefore they didn't exactly prepare against Taeja in the beginning of his dominant period. Therefore to me Taeja belongs to the #5-10 of this ranking. As you can see, stuchio, this argumentation is as least as right as yours. Such rankings can hardly be objective and always reflect the opinion. I am just going to wonder how you wanna justify MVP over Life or the other way round in your ranking with all this being said. There hardly can be an objective measurment. MVP: - most real major titles - alot of them were happening in GomTvT era - must be discounted due to lower competition in the beginning of SC2 (such as with MC) - most brilliant player the terran race has seen in SC2 (along with MC and Life) Life: - less major titles (speaking of GSLs here) - some in era of Winfestors - not reliant on metagames, creates his own metagame - most versatile player sc2 has seen - dominance in different metagame eras - most brilliant player zerg race has seen (along with MVP and MC) Really hard decision what? And in the end there is no objective criteria to make a decision on based on how you argue for the fact that you couldn't decide elsewise than Taeja being #3. Mvp was a lot more consistent than Life has been. If you look at Life's career he has shown some vulnerability during times when the metagame did not exactly suit him. If anything Mvp represents the versatile all around player, with life being more stylized albeit nearly as great. Life's achievements are so impressive I could see him being placed #1, even if I wouldn't agree with it. I do think several of Mvp's gsl wins are slightly less impressive (in terms of overall field). At the same time Mvp was by far the most dominant player we have ever seen during his 2011 run and won several of his gsl's in a completely dominant fashion. Mvp was also a player who fought through a lot of his only issues (his wrist) and through much of late 2012's bl/infestor shitshow. I still find Mvp's 6 gsl finals,4 championships and incredible consistency the most impressive thing we have seen in starcraft 2 to this date. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On April 28 2015 16:13 Alucen-Will- wrote: Mvp was a lot more consistent than Life has been. If you look at Life's career he has shown some vulnerability during times when the metagame did not exactly suit him. If anything Mvp represents the versatile all around player, with life being more stylized albeit nearly as great. Life's achievements are so impressive I could see him being placed #1, even if I wouldn't agree with it. I do think several of Mvp's gsl wins are slightly less impressive (in terms of overall field). At the same time Mvp was by far the most dominant player we have ever seen during his 2011 run and won several of his gsl's in a completely dominant fashion. Mvp was also a player who fought through a lot of his only issues (his wrist) and through much of late 2012's bl/infestor shitshow. I still find Mvp's 6 gsl finals,4 championships and incredible consistency the most impressive thing we have seen in starcraft 2 to this date. Sure but by this definition Jinro would have been the best foreigner we ever had, which he surely was not. You see my point? Also: Life is the most versatile player to me (MVP most consistent). He uses timings and playstyles that others dont even know to exist and dare to use. He makes semi-all-in play look like playing macro. He can switch back and forth within seconds in a single game based on the information he has and gives to the opponent. Probably the zerg race also allows to be a more versatile than the terran race. Life is the guy who makes the difference by building 4-6 lings more and using them 100% on point and to their best value. And if he doesn't then he is the only guy around that knows how to make up for an early/midgame disadvantage quickly by taking more risks while others continue to play on and keep being 10% behind, hope for a mistake of the opponent and wonder why they lose one of the upcoming battles in the end when mistakes are not being made. Life relies on his abilities as noone else. His risk/reward evaluation and the speed he does it in a game and the reading of players in the situation is so impressive. This comes along with inconsistency to some degree I guess. I would put it down to the terran race allows to be more consistent and the zerg race allows to be more versatile as a player. | ||
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Inzan1ty
1163 Posts
Now Mvp #2 and Life #1 would make this a decent Top 5, although you should have swaped Innovation and Polt, there simply wasnt a more dominating player in SC2 than Bogus in 2013. (not even Mvp was so invincible, winning a pro league for his team all alone) | ||
munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On April 28 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything? IMO, the consistency that should be valued in the context of a GOAT list is consistency of challenging for titles. While the fact that PartinG's on course for 10 consecutive Code S Ro.16s this season is ridiculous in itself, that's in the wider context of Starcraft. In other words, there's a difference between being a consistent participant and a consistent challenger; in my opinion, PartinG fits into the former category for GSL. Put it this way; for a GOAT list, I'd deem soO's 4 finals to be a far more impressive achievement than 10 Ro.16s | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 28 2015 16:27 thecrazymunchkin wrote: IMO, the consistency that should be valued in the context of a GOAT list is consistency of challenging for titles. While the fact that PartinG's on course for 10 consecutive Code S Ro.16s this season is ridiculous in itself, that's in the wider context of Starcraft. In other words, there's a difference between being a consistent participant and a consistent challenger; in my opinion, PartinG fits into the former category for GSL. Put it this way; for a GOAT list, I'd deem soO's 4 finals to be a far more impressive achievement than 10 Ro.16s I think that's fair. My issue is that consistency seems to have almost no value in Stuchio's list. Imagine if PartinG had instead invested all that time in foreign tournaments as Taeja did? These are the sort of Issues I have when you value foreign tournaments so highly and don't value consistency as a reasonable criteria | ||
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ETisME
12259 Posts
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Inzan1ty
1163 Posts
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 28 2015 16:32 Alucen-Will- wrote: I think that's fair. My issue is that consistency seems to have almost no value in Stuchio's list. Imagine if PartinG had instead invested all that time in foreign tournaments as Taeja did? These are the sort of Issues I have when you value foreign tournaments so highly and don't value consistency as a reasonable criteria You can't base a list on buts and what ifs. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote: This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. This exactly would make the list more biased (is the TL terran bias real?): Discounting MC's & Nesteas's early succes in GomTvT era and not doing the same for MVP and MarineKing as terrans (parting should have marinekings or marus spot). Also: Life is presence and hopefully future! I could agree to MVP #1 if mc and nestea were not discounted and if Maru wasn't in the list but parting. If you put zest and maru in (presence) and discount nestea & mc (past), how can you argue to not discount mvp(past) but life(presence and past)? | ||
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
On April 28 2015 15:47 Alucen-Will- wrote: In terms of judging criteria to select, how is it that you rating Blizzcon>GSL? That seems absurd to me, particularly considering most gsl fields are at least as rigorous as the world finals. Furthermore, the preparation based format is really far superior to the weekend tournament format. Remember the server issues and how it ruined the Innovation/taeja series? (granted, InnoVation showed a weakness in this moment). In some way if you choose to value weekend tournaments so highly, you should also have considered proleague records highly. This would at least give the KeSPA players more of a reasonable chance. Didn't Flash and InnoVation go like 40-20 in 2013 proleague? How does that not mean anything? My other complaint is that you haven't included consistency as something to consider. PartinG soon will be the most consistent player in the history of GSL. Does that not mean anything? Blizzcon 2013-2014 was the only place where the best players from over the world compete. A place, where best Koreans and Koreiners (and a wild Naniwa) were to meet each other with equal chances of winning. It had the biggest prizepool. It also didn't have "weekend format" exactly - players had quite a few weeks to prepare for both their first opponent and all 15 others - a mix that takes best from both formats. I don't see why GSL with Koreans only should be considered superior. Team leagues could possibly be included but they wouldn't have changed this list much. They could possibly push MMA over Polt (to my great joy) and Inno over Zest but that's all, i.e. Flash would still be irrelevant even for top 20. Consistency is a double-edged sword without success: does Parting's lack of GSL wins together with his consistency actually tells about his greatness or his mediocrity on the top level? TaeJa at least won 11 weekend premiers. | ||
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Holloworb
Norway345 Posts
I was suprised to see Polt this high on the list, but when i read the piece on him it made sense. The NA scene is the one i have been following the least in SC2, so he's always been kinda under the radar for me personally. I agree with Taeja's spot, but his lack of success in Korea will forever haunt his legacy. | ||
nimdil
Poland3747 Posts
On April 28 2015 08:37 North2 wrote: That is what it boils down to, yes. I don't doubt it for a second that you have one of the best sense in valuing their play, and I'm saying it's still not reliable enough. Not only that, but it's a moot point. A win is a win. It's not the exact players they beat that matters, it's the level of competition of the entire tournament that would make the groundwork for an unbiased formula on how 'difficult' the tournaments were. There would certainly be luck involved on how the tournament played out, but that's just part of the game and it doesn't take away from their accomplishments. I have to agree with this point. They way it works - if you were in top form, your positioned on this list will be affected by any potential upset in a tournament you're attending which I don't think makes that much sense. To illustrate - I've opened random MLG, 2012, Spring Championship. In it late in the phase, SaSe won against Polt and Stephano only to fail against Alicia. Now if we would assess Alicia based on this result, it was rather unimpressive - SaSe was considered strong foreigner but definitely not top foreigner so overall nothing impressive. However Alicia at this MLG was in great form so without upset SaSe > Polt (or even SaSe > Stephano) his overall run would be rated higher as he probably would have beaten Polt anyway. So, assuming for the sake of conversation that Alicia would beat Polt, is that fair to rate his run lower just because SaSe had single strong performance at the time? | ||
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ETisME
12259 Posts
honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup. even with my huge zerg biased in wol, I couldn't stop appreciating his insane skill. How many terrans can you go into a match and needs to be wary of whether he is going into bio or mech just because he is so solid in both. How many times he kept getting unimaginable results against top players in their top form, Ironically it is one from each race for me: life, squirtle and innovation. | ||
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