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It is not fair.
Lets assume a player1 who is considered weak at a certain point of time wins a single tournament1 and
a) wins a second tournament
b) drops out of the second tournament early
If player1 wins a second tournament2 afterwards (a) he will be then considered strong in this frame of time
If player1 drops out of the second tournament2 (b) he continuously will be considered weak in this frame of time
Now it depends on if a) or b) is happening if loses against player1 in tournament1 weigh higher or not. This would mean that tournament2 had influence on the perforance of player1 in tournament1. In reality the future can't have influence on the past tho.
Simplified this is evidence why this ranking and how it is evaluated is biased. You can stretch this to several tournaments and larger periods of time and get the same result.
- especially when it is concrete that discounts haven't been applied to all players and for all kind of possible reasons but only for those the judge wanted to search for and see. Some might not even possibly be analysed while others are. Is it fair to only take into account what you can more or less analyse and leave out those you are too much unsure about when it comes to discounting player achievements?
For instance:
What is the reasoning behind soo being in the list and jaedong not being in? Both had an incredible run for second places and jaedong even one in global finals. Also jaedong has attended alot more tournaments and was constantly in the top 2 or 4 during this period (he even defeated taeja during taeja time: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_3_America/Premier ).
In the case of taeja and polt the korean vs foreigner tournament factor obviously didn't apply (or they both should have lower ratings). In jaedong vs soo it seems like the GSL-factor was accounted for and deceisive.
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Poland3775 Posts
On April 28 2015 19:24 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 17:07 Inzan1ty wrote:On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote:
This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup.
The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
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On April 28 2015 19:40 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 19:24 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 17:07 Inzan1ty wrote:On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote:
This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup. The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement.
But mvp ghost for example forced a patch.
His mech opening didn't rely much on patch neither
While the revolutionary patches for zerg like infestor queen didn't get to meta until eu zerg innovated the gasless opening and bl infestors.
Neither did the stephano roach max style.
Life did not lead to any major innovative changes in zerg play.
I guess some may see this as life Is more unique.
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On April 28 2015 19:58 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 19:40 nimdil wrote:On April 28 2015 19:24 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 17:07 Inzan1ty wrote:On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote:
This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup. The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement. Life did not lead to any major innovative changes in zerg play. I guess some may see this as life Is more unique.
What? I think Life's influence on Zerg is almost if not equal to NesTea's.
I credit him for ushering in more micro-oriented, aggressive and reactionary Zerg play. Especially with mapping out his various early pool openings. Then there's the dawn of HotS where he showed Zerg's the way in dealing with bio/mine. Back when Life had risen to being a champ, I recall numerous KR Zergs stating they had difficulty in replicating his style of play which was very unique at the time.
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On April 28 2015 20:22 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 19:58 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 19:40 nimdil wrote:On April 28 2015 19:24 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 17:07 Inzan1ty wrote:On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote:
This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup. The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement. Life did not lead to any major innovative changes in zerg play. I guess some may see this as life Is more unique. What? I think Life's influence on Zerg is almost if not equal to NesTea's. I credit him for ushering in more micro-oriented, aggressive and reactionary Zerg play. Especially with mapping out his various early pool openings. Then there's the dawn of HotS where he showed Zerg's the way in dealing with bio/mine. Back when Life had risen to being a champ, I recall numerous KR Zergs stating they had difficulty in replicating his style of play which was very unique at the time.
Nestea really pushed the modern drone timing, you can just see why he is so good at zerg in zvz.
He also invented the muta style.
Ling on the other hand played based on older builds, he just played them better.
All the zergs were pretty much using ling banelings mutas, life just played better, but he didn't show zerg how to play against it as far as I remember.
Like I said he is unique, but I don't think he revolutionized the matchup.
Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting, so is stephano in this area but surely both of them don't have the success as life has.
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Poland3775 Posts
On April 28 2015 19:58 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 19:40 nimdil wrote:On April 28 2015 19:24 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 17:07 Inzan1ty wrote:On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote:
This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup. The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement. But mvp ghost for example forced a patch.
Well, IIRC ThorZaIN forced a patch for Thors. So did - I think - Jinro? I don't recall if it was his "mech" TvP that forced change Thor's skill into spell.
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On April 28 2015 20:47 ETisME wrote:
Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting
that's YugiOh, except Yugi would also add infestors
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On April 28 2015 21:33 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 20:47 ETisME wrote:
Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting that's YugiOh, except Yugi would also add infestors
that's true, I personally think Dark is the one who perfected the timings though or maybe it was Dark's mechanics making it more viable.
anyway, I still don't think life has innovated much, I think the most credit I give him for is that you can go pure lings against the early hellion pressure?
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On April 28 2015 21:28 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 19:58 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 19:40 nimdil wrote:On April 28 2015 19:24 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 17:07 Inzan1ty wrote:On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote:
This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup. The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement. But mvp ghost for example forced a patch. Well, IIRC ThorZaIN forced a patch for Thors. So did - I think - Jinro? I don't recall if it was his "mech" TvP that forced change Thor's skill into spell.
Select is the reason bunkers get changed every fricking patch ^_^ and the reason why there are those neutral depots at the bottom of the chokepoint between your main and natural lol.
Also qxc and Morrow with the early/ mass reaper builds...
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 28 2015 18:58 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 08:37 North2 wrote:
That is what it boils down to, yes. I don't doubt it for a second that you have one of the best sense in valuing their play, and I'm saying it's still not reliable enough. Not only that, but it's a moot point. A win is a win. It's not the exact players they beat that matters, it's the level of competition of the entire tournament that would make the groundwork for an unbiased formula on how 'difficult' the tournaments were. There would certainly be luck involved on how the tournament played out, but that's just part of the game and it doesn't take away from their accomplishments. I have to agree with this point. They way it works - if you were in top form, your positioned on this list will be affected by any potential upset in a tournament you're attending which I don't think makes that much sense. To illustrate - I've opened random MLG, 2012, Spring Championship. In it late in the phase, SaSe won against Polt and Stephano only to fail against Alicia. Now if we would assess Alicia based on this result, it was rather unimpressive - SaSe was considered strong foreigner but definitely not top foreigner so overall nothing impressive. However Alicia at this MLG was in great form so without upset SaSe > Polt (or even SaSe > Stephano) his overall run would be rated higher as he probably would have beaten Polt anyway. So, assuming for the sake of conversation that Alicia would beat Polt, is that fair to rate his run lower just because SaSe had single strong performance at the time?
I included players having hot runs as players that would count (i.e. Sjow, Haypro and Patience all fell under this category for specific tournaments).
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Jaedong's runs just weren't strong enough.
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On April 28 2015 21:28 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 19:58 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 19:40 nimdil wrote:On April 28 2015 19:24 ETisME wrote:On April 28 2015 17:07 Inzan1ty wrote:On April 28 2015 17:01 ETisME wrote:
This list just needs mvp to be in number 1 spot and the universe will agree and forget the indifference. Mvp is all Wings, Life is the future. honestly I think in terms of tournament performance etc, life is up there and sooner or later will surpass mvp. But if we look at how much a player influenced the matchup, mvp wins hands down. He just keeps bringing up new things into the terran matchup. The thing is when Mvp was in his prime they kept changing stuff all the time. When Life was and is, the game is fairly stable so there's really no need to revolutionize matchups every other month - you can focus on refinement. But mvp ghost for example forced a patch. Well, IIRC ThorZaIN forced a patch for Thors. So did - I think - Jinro? I don't recall if it was his "mech" TvP that forced change Thor's skill into spell.
ThorZaIN got the thors nerfed even faster than Mvp got the ghosts iirc. And his build was hilarious.
On April 28 2015 21:47 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 21:33 Ej_ wrote:On April 28 2015 20:47 ETisME wrote:
Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting that's YugiOh, except Yugi would also add infestors that's true, I personally think Dark is the one who perfected the timings though or maybe it was Dark's mechanics making it more viable. anyway, I still don't think life has innovated much, I think the most credit I give him for is that you can go pure lings against the early hellion pressure?
Imo life showed a lot of innovation in the micro/ling usage department. His understanding of the way to make simple lings one of the most efficient units in the game is still un paralleled.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
My favorite part about the thor nerf was the reasoning.
"This had nothing to do wih Thorzain beating MC, I swear! We knew about this imba build the entire time even though no one in the history of SC2 has used it."
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Poland3775 Posts
On April 29 2015 00:17 stuchiu wrote:
My favorite part about the thor nerf was the reasoning.
"This had nothing to do wih Thorzain beating MC, I swear! We knew about this imba build the entire time even though no one in the history of SC2 has used it."
The truth is pre-nerf Thors were taking down destructible rocks too fast and special someone wasn't happy about it.
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TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final..
I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so...
Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess,
well where is PartinG please?
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On April 28 2015 21:47 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2015 21:33 Ej_ wrote:On April 28 2015 20:47 ETisME wrote:
Dark on the other hand is pretty impressive with his ling baneling roach corruptor zvt and interesting that's YugiOh, except Yugi would also add infestors that's true, I personally think Dark is the one who perfected the timings though or maybe it was Dark's mechanics making it more viable. anyway, I still don't think life has innovated much, I think the most credit I give him for is that you can go pure lings against the early hellion pressure?
i think you need to look at it from a perspective of not inventing strategies but changing the strategies that are available with your own micro/playstyle. nobody uses zerglings like life but thousands of people have been using lings before him
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On April 29 2015 00:17 stuchiu wrote:
My favorite part about the thor nerf was the reasoning.
"This had nothing to do wih Thorzain beating MC, I swear! We knew about this imba build the entire time even though no one in the history of SC2 has used it."
The reasoning for thor nerf actually went like this.
"The metagame evolved naturally. Even thou we find nothing to be overpowered, we will not allow this because this does not fall into the category of Blizzards allowed metagame. This is our game and we will only allowed it to be played the way we want."
+ Show Spoiler [no fluff quote from patch 1.3.3] +Some rare strategies involve mass numbers of Thors using 250mm Strike Cannons to lock down protoss, leaving them with few options for response. While these situations are rare, and the strategies aren’t necessarily overpowered, there were still a few things we didn’t like.
First, we definitely don’t like seeing Thors en masse. Due to the visual size of the unit, as well as a small pathing radius, Thors can obscure the other units in your army too easily. This can be problematic because it's important to know roughly how many units an opponent has when scouting. We want the Thor to be the type of unit that you add to your main army, and we definitely don’t want them to be the core of your army to the point where you strive to build as many as possible.
Also blizzard acting like this was probably my biggest reason for quitting the game. So you saying that there is anything "favorite" about the change, actually really stinged my heart. Not many times I have yelled at my screen, but reading patch 1.3.3 was one of them.
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On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote:
TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final..
I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so...
Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess,
well where is PartinG please?
Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
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your Country52798 Posts
On April 29 2015 03:50 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2015 02:02 ToToRoKappa wrote:
TaeJa never reach a single gsl final and not even wcs final..
I don't think he deserve his spot but Team Liquid article so...
Top 2-1 gonna be Life-Mvp i guess,
well where is PartinG please? Who beat him (and when) in his semi-final GSL runs?
Life when he won GSL and RorO when he won GSL.
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EPT
