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Greatest Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
558 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 22 23 24 25 26 28 Next All
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
April 27 2015 11:28 GMT
#461
On April 27 2015 20:24 LemonyTang wrote:
yo TL cmon post the last part. I literally had a nightmare that i woke up and checked it and mvp was #2. I need to get that out of my head.


Jokes on you, TaeJa grabbed the top 3 spots
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
Tanzklaue
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany1413 Posts
April 27 2015 11:44 GMT
#462
On April 27 2015 20:28 Jer99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 20:24 LemonyTang wrote:
yo TL cmon post the last part. I literally had a nightmare that i woke up and checked it and mvp was #2. I need to get that out of my head.


Jokes on you, TaeJa grabbed the top 3 spots

number 2 is pirateterran and numer one lis liquidsucksballswithoutme. moustache terran is overrated though.
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8157 Posts
April 27 2015 11:49 GMT
#463
On April 27 2015 20:44 Tanzklaue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 20:28 Jer99 wrote:
On April 27 2015 20:24 LemonyTang wrote:
yo TL cmon post the last part. I literally had a nightmare that i woke up and checked it and mvp was #2. I need to get that out of my head.


Jokes on you, TaeJa grabbed the top 3 spots

number 2 is pirateterran and numer one lis liquidsucksballswithoutme. moustache terran is overrated though.


Never forget

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
Promised_pain
Profile Joined October 2011
Finland57 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-27 12:22:37
April 27 2015 12:22 GMT
#464
1. Life "The Prodigy"
2. MVP "King of Wings"
Zealos
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom3575 Posts
April 27 2015 13:08 GMT
#465
Please MVP @#1

I love Life or what have you, but MVP will always be the hero the game needed
On the internet if you disagree with or dislike something you're angry and taking it too seriously. == Join TLMafia !
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
April 27 2015 13:25 GMT
#466
It is impossible to satisfy everyone with lists like these. Nevertheless, I feel like there should have been two lists -- one pre-KESPA and one post-KESPA. Polt for example is about as good as he's ever been and I don't think you can say he's even the fifth best Terran at present, let alone fifth best player overall. Players like Polt, Taeja, and MC aren't even in the top tier of current players even though they're playing about as well as they ever have. That last point is important. We're able to see how these guys stack up against the current crop of sc2 Koreans and Polt, etc. are still top tier but they're only fringe top tier at best.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
April 27 2015 13:29 GMT
#467
On April 27 2015 22:25 The_Darkness wrote:
It is impossible to satisfy everyone with lists like these. Nevertheless, I feel like there should have been two lists -- one pre-KESPA and one post-KESPA. Polt for example is about as good as he's ever been and I don't think you can say he's even the fifth best Terran at present, let alone fifth best player overall. Players like Polt, Taeja, and MC aren't even in the top tier of current players even though they're playing about as well as they ever have. That last point is important. We're able to see how these guys stack up against the current crop of sc2 Koreans and Polt, etc. are still top tier but they're only fringe top tier at best.


you realize this isn't a power rank right now? because it's what you're asking for...
Zest fanboy.
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
April 27 2015 13:42 GMT
#468
On April 27 2015 14:36 stuchiu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 14:29 xelnaga_empire wrote:
I'm assuming Life and MVP will get the last 2 spots. If that is the case, PartinG was left out of the top 15.

PartinG > Leenock if we are talking about top SC2 players of all time.

There is no question PartinG has achieved much more than Leenock in SC2.

Disappointed that the OP didn't consider PartinG. I feel that the OP should have thought through this list and discussed it with other people before publicizing it.


I did consider Parting. The people I talked to didn't have a particularly strong inclination for including Parrting in the top 15.


How is this even possible!? Like I thought for sure his WCS 2012 and WCG win would put him in the top 15.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
royalroadweed
Profile Joined April 2013
United States8301 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-27 13:47:20
April 27 2015 13:44 GMT
#469
Anyone know where is Polt vs Byul game 2? Weird it's not on their youtube channel considering its the game with Billy the marine.
"Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"
North2
Profile Joined January 2011
134 Posts
April 27 2015 13:48 GMT
#470
I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.

I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.

At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.

Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.
www.twitch.tv/rnorth2
nimdil
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland3748 Posts
April 27 2015 13:49 GMT
#471
On April 27 2015 20:13 tokinho wrote:

At the end of 2012, early 2013 i don't know who I would consider better than Parting. he won the wcs grand finals. took several first there and seconds in gsl. He was one of the dominant players of proleague as well. (i know you kind of hate proleague from your original post on who you chose. which excluded several players like stephano, flash, losira, cj hero) the 3 biggest names i felt were startale bomber and parting and stephano got the short end of the stick. Jaedong to is scary as hell. (Jaedong, losira, hyun, and zest i feel could beat any player any day as well.)

I would like to see parting/bomber/stephano/sos/squirtle/zest/hero/hero/classic/jaedong/Naniwa in particular addressed in the post of the top 15.


WCS was premier but it wasn't particulary hard. Arguably his 3rd place in WCS Korea and 2nd place in WCS Asia could be considered more respectful results. En route to the championship he won against Socke, Illusion, Scarlett, Suppy, Sen and Creator. Respectable? Yes. Impressive? Hardly (at least for a GOAT contender).

While I disagree with having MK over Parting, I think you're overvaluing his achievements a bit.
Samx
Profile Joined August 2013
Singapore149 Posts
April 27 2015 13:50 GMT
#472
Only a small point. The terms blink era and BL-infestors have been bandied quite a fair bit in the write up to try and justify certain positions for lending weight to why some wins are deemed more impressive than some. By the same account, parade push tvz era, gomtvt era and 1/1/1 tvp were not.
Our enemies are a legion and STILL you procrastinate
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
April 27 2015 14:03 GMT
#473
On April 27 2015 22:44 royalroadweed wrote:
Anyone know where is Polt vs Byul game 2? Weird it's not on their youtube channel considering its the game with Billy the marine.


As the vod bitch for this entire project, there were only 2 vods I couldn't find.
Polt vs ByuL G2 was one of them. It simply doesn't exist on youtube for some reason, and the twitch channels are dead.
Unless it's on some chinese site (which I did search...) it's likely gone forever :[
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-27 14:16:17
April 27 2015 14:14 GMT
#474
On April 27 2015 23:03 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 22:44 royalroadweed wrote:
Anyone know where is Polt vs Byul game 2? Weird it's not on their youtube channel considering its the game with Billy the marine.


As the vod bitch for this entire project, there were only 2 vods I couldn't find.
Polt vs ByuL G2 was one of them. It simply doesn't exist on youtube for some reason, and the twitch channels are dead.
Unless it's on some chinese site (which I did search...) it's likely gone forever :[


I got your back homie!

http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_america/b/471983011?t=7h10m54s

==

I also recommend their ro16 clash. g2 in particular:

NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
munch
Profile Joined July 2014
Mute City2363 Posts
April 27 2015 14:20 GMT
#475
Well now I look silly. I swear I checked that channel to find nothing :[
WriterForm is temporary, MMA is permanent || http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/508630-article-archive
Ansinjunger
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2451 Posts
April 27 2015 14:49 GMT
#476
On April 27 2015 22:08 Zealos wrote:
Please MVP @#1

I love Life or what have you, but MVP will always be the hero the game needed


I wouldn't say ghosts needed Mvp.

He should still be #1 though. Life has plenty of time to take over that spot.
YourGoodFriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2197 Posts
April 27 2015 14:50 GMT
#477
That Taeja write up Stuchiu
anonymous is the most famous author that anyone can be
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
April 27 2015 14:54 GMT
#478
On April 27 2015 20:13 tokinho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 14:36 stuchiu wrote:
On April 27 2015 14:29 xelnaga_empire wrote:
I'm assuming Life and MVP will get the last 2 spots. If that is the case, PartinG was left out of the top 15.

PartinG > Leenock if we are talking about top SC2 players of all time.

There is no question PartinG has achieved much more than Leenock in SC2.

Disappointed that the OP didn't consider PartinG. I feel that the OP should have thought through this list and discussed it with other people before publicizing it.


I did consider Parting. The people I talked to didn't have a particularly strong inclination for including Parrting in the top 15.


In the final post, i would request why did you exclude the tosses, foreigners, Proleague monsters, and ex-startale bomber/parting?
1. Parting
2. Stephano
3. Bomber
4. Jaedong
5. the two heroes (CJHero,liquidHero)
6. zest
7. sos
8. squirtle
9. Classic
10. Naniwa
11. the Proleague stars- Losira, Bbyong, Flash,

More specifically.
+ Show Spoiler +

Since the final post only has two, I feel that you could add much more to your debate. Particularly, why did you leave out certain players. There's about 10 or more than i felt were stronger than marine king.

At the end of 2012, early 2013 i don't know who I would consider better than Parting. he won the wcs grand finals. took several first there and seconds in gsl. He was one of the dominant players of proleague as well. (i know you kind of hate proleague from your original post on who you chose. which excluded several players like stephano, flash, losira, cj hero) the 3 biggest names i felt were startale bomber and parting and stephano got the short end of the stick. Jaedong to is scary as hell. (Jaedong, losira, hyun, and zest i feel could beat any player any day as well.)

I would like to see parting/bomber/stephano/sos/squirtle/zest/hero/hero/classic/jaedong/Naniwa in particular addressed in the post of the top 15.




Why these all fell short in your mind?




The reasons why are basically covered in my blog about criteria. The only people that were a hairsbreadth away from making it were Soulkey, Bomber, Parting and sOs.

Soulkey didn't have enough dominating runs. Bomber wasn't consistent enough. Some of Parting's big wins were weak and hurt his overall peak consistency. Coupled with the prestige of 2013 Blizzcon of sOs he fell below sOs. sOs only had slighy higher peaks than Leenock, but had slightly weaker runs and overall weaker consistency.
Moderator
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
April 27 2015 14:59 GMT
#479
On April 27 2015 22:50 Samx wrote:
Only a small point. The terms blink era and BL-infestors have been bandied quite a fair bit in the write up to try and justify certain positions for lending weight to why some wins are deemed more impressive than some. By the same account, parade push tvz era, gomtvt era and 1/1/1 tvp were not.


For 1/1/1 TvP era the only real ehroes of that era were MC and Parting. Taeja fought bl/infesor and blink era so that didn't come up. Parting didn't really fight the kings of 1/1/1 much during his reign (Puma/Heart) and I don't think it was as comparable to the later eras of complete dominance that bl/infestor and blink era were.

GomTvT era did have a showing in both Nestea and Polt's arcs and were one of the reasons why Nestea was specifically chosen over Zest.

Parade Push TvZ Era was talked about under DRG. I don't think it was ever truly imbalanced like the way bl/infestor and blink era were (even though Terran had a high winrate). And even then the only players to succeed against it were Life, Soulkey, DRG and Curious. Life only had enough to win MLG Fall before it was truly refined. Soulkey used a bunch of mind tricks and once won a bo1 Proleague against it. DRG actually did kill it. So did Curious.
Moderator
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
April 27 2015 15:13 GMT
#480
On April 27 2015 22:48 North2 wrote:
I haven't followed SC2 since WoL but I do like reading Top xx articles. Great read all around, but I gotta say your logic on Taeja is a little bullshit.

I think you're trying too hard tbh. I agree that there should be some attempt at valuing difficulty of matches and comparing them with actual prestige, but it really doesn't matter too much when it's about XX of ALL TIME of anything. I honestly don't know where your train of thought starts. I read your entire logic on why you put Taeja at #3 and read it 2 more times, yet everything you wrote makes no sense why he'd be in third place. If anything, I'd expect him to be in #7. This is just from reading your Foreword of this whole list and putting it side by side with what you said about Taeja. Like...what's the point of valuing Blizzcon over everything else if you're gonna put so much weight on the difficulty of opponents? I really don't get it.

At the very least, you're completely forgetting that this is the list of the greatest players of ALL TIME. MC found success in the highly volatile stages of the game back when I actually played SC2 and continued onwards as the game changed. The general vibe I get is that you're making a list of the greatest players currently, or the presumed equivalent of how they would fare if they played at their prime form. I think that's rather unfair since SC2 of now is not the whole history of SC2.

Michael Jordan is without a doubt the greatest basketball player of all time by most people's standards, but I kinda doubt he would be Top 1 if he played in his prime form today since the standards have been pushed up. Jack Nicklaus is at the very least Top 2 greatest golfers of all time (Tiger Woods being the other one) but I doubt he would even be top 10 now because the game has changed.


Because the context of players wins mattered to me. Who they beat along the way to win a tournament as well as the relative strength of their scenes. Like I said it was just a general guideline to give people a decent feel for how I ranked tournaments. I wasn't completely dismissive of what MC did in the early phases and I wasn't dismissive of what Taeja did internationally.

Taeja was essentially a conundrum. What would happen if there was a player who consistently beat the top players of his era over and over and over again in international lans, but could never really make it happen in prep tournaments beyond a few RO4s? But what if he had won so many and had beaten so many of the good players that it dwarfed his competition?

At the end of the day things like prestige and preparation formats and innovation can only take you so far. At some point the results of what you did and who you had to beat to get there eventually start outweighing those intangible aspects. And with Taeja he went past that point a long time ago.
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