EPTGreatest Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 22
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kochanfe
Micronesia1338 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On April 27 2015 04:06 [Phantom] wrote: And thats where he should have stayed. This is where I started to balance things out. In GSL Open MC beat a Top 5 Z, Top 2 T, Top 3 T, Top 5 T. In Taeja’s 2013 GSL run he beat a Top 5 T, Top 5 Z, Top 1 Z. I then added in his Red Bull 2nd place to even out the prestige as in terms of difficulty Taeja’s run in 2013 was harder than MC’s run in 2010. Next is MC’s March GSL win. He beat a Top 3 Z, Top 2 P, Top 3 Z. I compared this to Taeja’s Top 4 2012 run. He beat Top 1 T, Top 3 Z, Top 3 T, Top 2 Z. In sheer numbers MC again had the harder path. So I then added in Taeja’s ASUS Rog Summer to make up the difference in prestige (though Taeja’s opponent list now dwarf’s MC’s). Why you "add tournaments to even out" the prestige or something, specially when you compare the Red Bull thing to the GSL? You can't even compare them properly because the Lan events are on a weekend wheres GSL gives you time to prepare strategies, and thats where taeja gets a lead when he shouldn't have gotten it. Here is my theory. You were obsesed on not having taeja that high on the list for a lot of reasons, one of them being the suppoused "TL bias". But then, you tried to see things "objectively", and to do so you started to balance out things to favour taeja and try to see him on a more neutral spopt, but what happened is that although you tried to balance it, you started to subconsiously give too much credit to Taeja for certain things and thats why it ended up being favored on your list. Frankly, if Mc was 3rd and Taeja 4th it would be fine. You say Taeja won agaisn't harder oponents on LAN, but again, thats not comparable. When you have time to prepare for an oponent your skill and yor strenghts can vary a lot, and there is much more to it than just the skill of the player, there is strategy, the coach, the team, the mental strenght of the player and so on, you cannot simply say that the more difficult players beat the prestigue, because that prestigue comes from somewhere. Again you can't compare. Taeja never was at a live final in korea, and no, he was not consistent for 1.5 years. The very "summer of taeja" thing, shows that he was consisten only during a short time, then went to a slump, and then back again to the top. You can't say he was consistent for 1.5 years. First of all, spelling. Second of all, have you done all the work that stuchiu has? Have you rewatched his games, exhaustively researched the background information, and tried to find your own data to justify placing Taeja lower? Because, unless you've done a similar amount of work to stuchiu, you have absolutely no reason to come up with some ridiculous theory about how his subconscious is working when it comes to forming his own damn opinion. And of course, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say you have put just as much work into your own private list of GOAT. That still has precisely 0% to do with what is 'objectively right' because in absence of a multi-year, completely integrated, and unified metrical system of tournaments, there is no objectivity in GOAT unless someone has won so many titles and games that they are simply accepted as such. There are exactly two players who MIGHT fit that category in all of SC2, and neither of them is Taeja. So, I guess I'm saying, chill. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On April 27 2015 08:54 kochanfe wrote: hmmm... soO at 12 and Zest at 8 while Polt and TaeJa are sitting at 5 and 3 respectively... something seems a bit off lol This isn't "who would win in a boX" or who's been at the highest peak. I think soO and Zest are better players than Polt or Taeja, however when you look at greatest of all time you have to look at for how long they've been considered "great". Great (or Best) in this context does not mean "second to none". | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:20 RaiKageRyu wrote: Life will be #1. Why? Because Life actually beat him in the Grand Finals of that one GSL at the end of Wings. It Mvp had won that finals and got his G5L, then of course he would be #1, because no one would probably achieve another G5L ever. But Life beat him, and Mvp has stopped playing SC2, but Life still has a grand future ahead of him. Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9070 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:03 y0su wrote: This isn't "who would win in a boX" or who's been at the highest peak. I think soO and Zest are better players than Polt or Taeja, however when you look at greatest of all time you have to look at for how long they've been considered "great". Great (or Best) in this context does not mean "second to none". TaeJa has beaten both soO and Zest every time they have met. I don't think Polt has played soO and I think he lost the only time he played Zest. They operate in two different regions, but Polt and TaeJa have proven that they can beat the best at any given moment. TaeJa has done it repeatedly and against the ones you have mentioned. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:04 IshinShishi wrote: Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him. Isn't that a bit of a weird argument, though? You can say that strategy should reign over speed and pure physical prowess if you want, but there's countless examples of players in chess and other games getting too old and physically unfit for long, grueling competition and succumbing to younger, fitter players. That doesn't mean they're not great, it just means that the times are always changing. No one's ever going to say Kasparov isn't AMONG the all-time greats, but to say that he's de factor better than Carlsen because Carlsen is just young and fit right now and Kasparov's 'strategy was better' would be strange (also fallacious because holy shit does Carlsen play the most strategically deep chess I've ever seen). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:04 IshinShishi wrote: Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him. Life won because Zerg was completely broken against Terran at the end of WoL. The fact he barely won 4-3 indeed speaks volumes about how much he was outplayed. Unfortunately, unlike the Nestea vs MarineKing finals, justice did not prevail in the last game. Such is life! | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:08 Jazzman88 wrote: Isn't that a bit of a weird argument, though? You can say that strategy should reign over speed and pure physical prowess if you want, but there's countless examples of players in chess and other games getting too old and physically unfit for long, grueling competition and succumbing to younger, fitter players. That doesn't mean they're not great, it just means that the times are always changing. No one's ever going to say Kasparov isn't AMONG the all-time greats, but to say that he's de factor better than Carlsen because Carlsen is just young and fit right now and Kasparov's 'strategy was better' would be strange (also fallacious because holy shit does Carlsen play the most strategically deep chess I've ever seen). True, but thats beside the point, I don't think Life will ever get even close to Mvp's sheer brilliance at his prime. edit: then again I'm quite biased and I haven't watched sc2 in a while, but when I did that's what I felt. | ||
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Dreamer.T
United States3584 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 27 2015 06:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I didn't, but then, I really don't care about how people think players should be ranked, and why. I just read the first part, the mythologising. For the last part then I'd recommend reading the other 2 sections since it they very much tie into the mythology. | ||
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zerious
Canada3803 Posts
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TheEmulator
28104 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17750 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:06 zerious wrote: I will be a sad panda if Mvp isn't #1. At Mvp's peak, he made everyone look helpless. If you ask any of the players he's played against during his reign, they all had nothing but praises and respect for him. I don't think there will be another Mvp. :D It makes me sad to think that we might never get anyone like Mvp again. But I think in terms of accomplishments, Life might be ahead slightly, it's close. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:04 IshinShishi wrote: Watch the series again, Mvp played better than Life in almost every single aspect, Life took the series simply because Mvp couldn't follow up mechanically despite getting huge leads through his extremely intelligent play, Life didn't truly beat Mvp, Mvp's wrists did it for him. So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On April 27 2015 08:57 kochanfe wrote: I'm assuming Life no.2 and Mvp no.1? Or perhaps they share the no.1 slot. Either way, the top two on the list are about all I can agree with... Surely Mvp is #1? Won a GSL at a time when Terran was weak to Protoss - despite not having serious wrist issues. Mostly outplayed Life in a narrow loss at a time when Zerg was extremely OP vs Terran and Mvp - this time without wrists altogether! Also won a few other GSLs. Life is the best player in the world, but MVP is the greatest of all time. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
On April 27 2015 09:14 TheDwf wrote: Life won because Zerg was completely broken against Terran at the end of WoL. The fact he barely won 4-3 indeed speaks volumes about how much he was outplayed. Unfortunately, unlike the Nestea vs MarineKing finals, justice did not prevail in the last game. Such is life! You also have to factor in that Life barely beat a weak Mvp. The way he go to that finals was awful. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:49 shockaslim wrote: You also have to factor in that Life barely beat a weak Mvp. The way he go to that finals was awful. Life or Mvp? I mean either way their path was awesome not really awful. Life's was a story of dominance and a new age. Mvp's was a miraculous run of a tired veteran who won through intellect and experience. All that final needed was better games and it could've been the best series ever. Story wise I don't think it can be beat. | ||
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Alucen-Will-
United States4054 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:34 althaz wrote: So much this - Mvp was defeated by his body, not by Life. Life is an amazing player - but Mvp is SC2's only Bonjwa. I agree. While Life's career is in many ways littered with impressive wins, Mvp has the Bonjwa quality to him that is hard to put into words. Like the Flash or sAviOr aura in their primes. | ||
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.vale.
United States16 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 27 2015 10:59 Alucen-Will- wrote: I agree. While Life's career is in many ways littered with impressive wins, Mvp has the Bonjwa quality to him that is hard to put into words. Like the Flash or sAviOr aura in their primes. See, this right here... Mvp is clearly #1, but I don't agree at all with the assessment of Life and actually think he's rapidly nearing Mvp's level. I mean, Life just came off winning Blizzcon, IEM Taipei, GSL, and wasn't even that far off from winning the NSSL. He has 3 GSL titles and 10 Premieres to his name with excellent spread over time. | ||
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