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On April 27 2015 05:04 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2015 04:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 04:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
EDIT: During one of his streams, I asked TaeJa what he thought of the list and he said that he and PartinG talked about it. No PartinG, no GG. No hate, it's just that when the article is featured news one would think one of the intents is to discuss the placings of each player. I don't see much disrespect going around, I actually think Stuchiu is very appreciated by the community. There's just a lot of disagreement and that's bound to happen. == Also, I'm appreciative of this list reminding me of my favorite ceremony xD I like a good discussion, don't get me wrong, but this has been a bashing against TaeJa and the exclusion of PartinG even though it has been made clear why these are the way they are. I don't know, it's just a weird thing to see so much angst over one person's personal rankings and when invited to make their own, there are none.
Taeja is always going to generate a shitstorm whenever people try to rank him. This has been going on for like the past two years. It always brings up the argument of quantity vs quality. Taeja's wins tend to carry less weight individually but he's simply won more premieres than everyone. Some think that's not even enough, that a single Korean win is basic qualification for being among the very top, that preparation > all. Others see foreign events as their own distinct competition and should be respected in their own right. Also, Taeja is on TL which always allows accusations of bias.
Personally, I think Taeja is exactly where he should be at #3.
As for PartinG, I've said enough on him. Hell, I don't even like the guy, I just find it peculiar he's not here. Stuchiu explained his reasoning, I don't agree. I've moved on. It's much more that I'm anti-Rain xD
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On April 27 2015 05:22 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 05:04 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2015 04:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 04:28 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I had to log in just to ask why the hate? I mean, seriously, in complete honesty, why? This has been discussed to death, back to life, and then back to death. TaeJa is #3 "Greatest of All Time" according to Stuchiu. No one else. This was a personal endeavor on his part to reveal who HE thought were the top 15 in the world since SC2. GSL or no GSL, TaeJa is a force to be reckoned with. When he was forced back to South Korea, everyone wanted a piece of him. And he has repeatedly beaten the best of the best. As was stated previously, he has a winning record over most of the people Stuchiu listed. Stuchiu also stated that he tried to put TaeJa lower, but couldn't justify it. You don't go 17-0 during a tournament run and get ranked last. You also don't play potentially game of the year matches every time you enter a booth, and be ranked last. Furthermore, you don't win 11 Premier tournaments regardless of the format, and be ranked last.
TaeJa earned his ranking through the sheer amount of work he has put in, the amount of wins he has, and the amount of times people have been at a loss for words to describe his play. You can make a case for Polt, Life, MVP, Zest, sOs, etc and clearly define what makes them great. You can't do that with TaeJa. He is truly a one of a kind player and barring a WCS/GSL trophy, he deserves the ranking he received.
Stuchiu, I read most of what you wrote and damn man, heart was fluttering. Wonderful writing and justification for each one. I went back and watched the matches you linked and remember exactly where I was when each was being played and how I felt about each one. Thank you.
EDIT: During one of his streams, I asked TaeJa what he thought of the list and he said that he and PartinG talked about it. No PartinG, no GG. No hate, it's just that when the article is featured news one would think one of the intents is to discuss the placings of each player. I don't see much disrespect going around, I actually think Stuchiu is very appreciated by the community. There's just a lot of disagreement and that's bound to happen. == Also, I'm appreciative of this list reminding me of my favorite ceremony xD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFjyxNbKR-w I like a good discussion, don't get me wrong, but this has been a bashing against TaeJa and the exclusion of PartinG even though it has been made clear why these are the way they are. I don't know, it's just a weird thing to see so much angst over one person's personal rankings and when invited to make their own, there are none. Taeja is always going to generate a shitstorm whenever people try to rank him. This has been going on for like the past two years. It always brings up the argument of quantity vs quality. Taeja's wins tend to carry less weight individually but he's simply won more premieres than everyone. Some think that's not even enough, that a single Korean win is basic qualification for being among the very top, that preparation > all. Others see foreign events as their own distinct competition and should be respected in their own right. Also, Taeja is on TL which always allows accusations of bias. Personally, I think Taeja is exactly where he should be at #3. As for PartinG, I've said enough on him. Hell, I don't even like the guy, I just find it peculiar he's not here. Stuchiu explained his reasoning, I don't agree. I've moved on. It's much more that I'm anti-Rain xD
I can respect that. I never watched a lot of GSL until really around March 2014. I wasn't impressed. Except when Soulkey reversed swept Innovation. That was amazing.
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On April 26 2015 23:56 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2015 22:10 Mallidon wrote:
Not sure how Taeja beat MC here...
Looking at some of the criteria though I'd debate some of the Tier ratings really. IEM 2012 World Championship is Tier 3, really? Based on what? The players at it were arguably a lot better than most MLG's or NASL and the prize pool a lot higher than many of your Tier 2 (MLG Championships etc) and almost comparable with T1.
I simply put, just do not agree with the tier ratings here. Prize Pool did not factor in. Here are the relevant players that went here: Top 10 Z Violet Top 10 T Puma Top 10 T Supernova Top 5 T MMA Top 5 P MC Maybe Top 10 P in JYP and Killer Now let me show you a tier 1 MLG (MLG Provdence): DRG - Top 3 Z Top 5 T - MMA Top 5 T - Bomber Top 5 T - Puma (The difference was he was in his prime here while at IEM he fell off) Top 10 T - Rain Top 5 P - Naniwa Top 5 P - Huk Top 5 P - HerO Top 5 P - Oz Top 10 P - Puzzle Top 1 T - Mvp Top 10 T - Ganzi Top 5 T - MKP Top 10 T - sC Top 10 T - Keen Top 5 Z - Losira Top 10 Z - idra Top 3 Z - Leenock Top 3 Z - Nestea Top 10 Z - Violet And Haypro played the tournament of his life. If you can convince me that IEM was on the same level as one of the tier 1 tournaments I listed, please go ahead.
On April 27 2015 00:03 stuchiu wrote:
Oh here is a tier 2 MLG (Anaheim 2014):
Trap - Top 5 P (Played at that level)
Polt - Top 5 T
Stardust - Top 10 P
HerO - Top 10 P
Alicia - ? Hard to rate, but he rates somewhere between Top 15- top 10,
Bomber - Top 5 T
Heart - Top 10 T
Hyun - Top 5 Z
Jaedong - Top 10 Z
DRG - Top 5 Z
Life - Top 5 Z
Leenock - Top 10 Z
And this is without listing the increased depth of middle tier players.
So if you can convince me that IEM WC was better than this, than please do.
I'm not sure I could go into it with as much depth as you have, not without creating my own spreadsheets etc and to be honest I don't think I have the time lol. I must say, I'm just throwing out my opinion, you don't have to like everyones as you know what they say about opinions...
I just reckon the IEM WC should be tier 2 at least, with the players (that you've mentioned) at it. I mean PuMa at that time was a two time NASL champ (within 9 months of the final) and MC beat him, ending his good spell in SC2 really. The MLG's you've listed were stacked, I might have misread the tiers of some of the ones I was thinking of tbh.
Maybe I'm still in the tinted specs when I look at MC as a 2 time GSL winner, thinking he should be above Taeja. Maybe the competition wasn't as good back then, but hey since the player that SHOULD by all rights be top of this list was competitive around then (as well as about 3 others - MKP/MMA/Nestea - who are in your top 15 overall) then it couldn't have been all that bad hey?
On April 27 2015 00:23 lichter wrote:
i should start writing in people's mod notes when it's obvious they don't read articles and just comment anyway
I know I certainly did, and I tried to get my head around the tiers. Walls of text are hard :S
I guess I just don't quite agree completely with the list, but then if slightly different criteria is set up for another list then its going to be completely different..
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On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place.
Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting
Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
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On April 27 2015 04:06 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +When I first made this list and used the eye test, Taeja was actually much further down the list Taeja never was at a live final in korea, and no, he was not consistent for 1.5 years. The very "summer of taeja" thing, shows that he was consisten only during a short time, then went to a slump, and then back again to the top. You can't say he was consistent for 1.5 years.
2012-07-19 - Taeja wins MLG Summer
2012-08-04 - Taeja wins Asus ROG
2012-09-23 - Taeja wins Dreamhack Valencia
2012-10-10 - Top 4 GSL code s
2012-11-24 - 2nd place Dreamhack Winter
2013-03-01- top 4 GSL code S
2013-06-23 - Taeja wins homestory cupVII
2013-08-04 - Taeja wins ASUS ROG summer
2013-09-15 - Taeja wins Dreamhack Bucharest
2013-11-17 - Taeja wins Homestory cup VIII
2013-11-30 - Taeja wins Dreamhack Winter
2014-06-08 Taeja wins Homestory cup IX
2014-06-16 - Taeja wins Dreamhack summer
2014-07-20 - Taeja wins IEM Shenzen
This is dateline of his tournament wins. You say he was consistent for a short time then slumped....look at that list and please explain to me where these slumps were. This list doesn't even have many of his top 4 and up finishes, this is just the highlights, the longest streak he had without WINNING a premier tournament is between Valencia and Homestory cup (about 9 monthes). During that time, he got second place at Dreamhack Winter and top 4 in Code S twice(hardly a slump). Say what you will about Taeja, but it is impossible to argue against his consistency when you look at all the facts.
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On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano
Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
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On April 27 2015 05:57 tjtombo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
NaDa has best charisma. There's an entire thread dedicated to his body.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 27 2015 05:57 tjtombo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect.
Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble 
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On April 27 2015 06:04 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 05:57 tjtombo wrote:On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect. Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
Charisma does not necessarily mean arrogant. Look at Polt, and Grubby.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 27 2015 06:10 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 06:04 Zealously wrote:On April 27 2015 05:57 tjtombo wrote:On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect. Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble Charisma does not necessarily mean arrogant. Look at Polt, and Grubby.
I know what charisma means (I don't think Stephano was particularly charismatic, on that note), I'm just lamenting the fact that Life's interviews are as dull as they are today compared to late 2012. The guy legitimately did not know he could actually lose back then.
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On April 27 2015 05:36 Mallidon wrote:
Maybe I'm still in the tinted specs when I look at MC as a 2 time GSL winner, thinking he should be above Taeja. Maybe the competition wasn't as good back then, but hey since the player that SHOULD by all rights be top of this list was competitive around then (as well as about 3 others - MKP/MMA/Nestea - who are in your top 15 overall) then it couldn't have been all that bad hey?
I got into Starcraft in mid-2011, and what I remember is that the Korean scene was nowhere near as cutthroat competitive as it is now. Sure, you can say some of the players who weren't very good were top 10 for their race, but there was a larger gap between 1st and 5th then, than there is now. Nowadays, someone who is immediately knocked out in Code A could conceivably threaten some of the best players of the world on a different day. When a near-GOAT player like Innovation gets knocked out of Code S, there is a real possibility he could be eliminated from GSL entirely. I don't think this was quite as true in 2011.
Also, I tend to think that the quality difference between foreign tournaments and korean preparation tournaments (as much as there is a large one, which I don't really believe, but that's beside the point) grew after Kespa moved to SC2. In 2011-2012, the best players from GSL would also fly to MLGs, Dreamhacks, etc. more than they do now, so winning a foreign tournament indicated that you won what some of the best players in the world couldn't, when now, the best players in the world don't even really attend that many tournaments outside of Korea. I'm not really sure if this is true, but that's how I remember it. Correct me if you disagree.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 27 2015 06:04 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 05:57 tjtombo wrote:On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect. Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
They should have never separated Suhosin from Life. I demand parenting rights go back to Suhosin!
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On April 27 2015 06:04 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 05:57 tjtombo wrote:On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect. Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble
You can still see it in that evil grin of his that he still doesn't think very highly of people that are not him.
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On April 27 2015 05:36 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 00:23 lichter wrote:
i should start writing in people's mod notes when it's obvious they don't read articles and just comment anyway I know I certainly did, and I tried to get my head around the tiers. Walls of text are hard :S
I didn't, but then, I really don't care about how people think players should be ranked, and why. I just read the first part, the mythologising.
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Parting, Life, Stephano and Soulkey has not been listed yet. My guess is Stephano #2 and Life #1. But that means Parting and Soulkey will not be on the list at all, which is pretty outrageous imo, like if you compare Parting to Leenock then surely Parting have had greater success
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On April 27 2015 06:29 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2015 06:04 Zealously wrote:On April 27 2015 05:57 tjtombo wrote:On April 27 2015 05:46 stuchiu wrote:On April 27 2015 05:41 tjtombo wrote:On April 26 2015 08:03 Meldon wrote:
Life is the most charismatic player ever. Playstyle, effectiveness, mental strength.
But most of all he killed the king MVP and took his place. Playstyle, effectivness and mental strength aren't really things that scream charisma....when I think of charismatic players I think of someone like Parting Yea when I think of charisma I think of Parting, MC, White-Ra, Polt, Sen, Grubby, Stephano Agreed, charisma is most often separate from the gameplay, Life and Maru are amazing sc2 players, but they don't really give the best interviews, or charm people the same way as an MC, Parting, ect. Life's interviews used to be great before someone taught him to be a little humble You can still see it in that evil grin of his that he still doesn't think very highly of people that are not him.
i think the only guy that life respects, or even maybe has some sort of fear versus, is taeja, and i don't think that taeja will be a big factor in the years to come anymore.
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I don't see Jaedong as a winner so I presume he is somewhere in the top20 or top50
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Poland3753 Posts
On April 27 2015 06:39 Mirnan wrote:
Parting, Life, Stephano and Soulkey has not been listed yet. My guess is Stephano #2 and Life #1. But that means Parting and Soulkey will not be on the list at all, which is pretty outrageous imo, like if you compare Parting to Leenock then surely Parting have had greater success
I'm assuming you're not trolling so:
Soulkey won 1 tournament, if you ignore WCG in which he only needed to beat one strong player to win the whole thing - a player mostly known for his WCG runs.
Stephano does not belong on the top 10 even. I'd argue that he should been in top 15 but that's it.
Life obviosuly is in top 2, perhaps top 1.
Parting was strong but he rarely delivered when it mattered most. Sure he won 3 premiers, was runner up in Blizzard Cup but if you look into details, his championship runs weren't particulary hard. So the way thsi ranking works, he is not ranked hard, obviously.
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hmmm... soO at 12 and Zest at 8 while Polt and TaeJa are sitting at 5 and 3 respectively... something seems a bit off lol
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EPT
