Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie? His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does. The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Edit: also +1 to TB; innocent until proven guilty, worthless accusations aren't doing anything.
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy.
TB doesn't know anything more than we do about this, it's just his own opinion.
The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught.
Unfortunately you dont know much about the betting lines and probability theory to have your opinion really count on the matter.
its always cute to see random forum users dictating whose opinion does and does not matter.
Burden of proof remains, indisputable. If you can't prove it then its nothing more than a witchhunt.
There is a lot of room between an indisputably proven allegation and an uninformed witch hunt. Why do people always feel like they have to pick sides and argue extremes?
The best thing that can be done here is to encourage KeSPA to perform an investigation of their own, internet detectives on TL and Reddit aren't going to get shit done other than further antagonizing people and wasting everyones time.
Totally agree. Yet sometimes it takes internet detectives and public pressure to get something official going. It is not like KeSPA has been very forthcoming with information on this.
On April 21 2015 10:07 fruity. wrote: Here's the VOD of the game in question.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
He did not have vision of the "overlord" spot with any of his units for over a minute. He would have realized that.
On April 21 2015 11:50 maGicc wrote: Well thats pretty nice, you can matchfix in sc2 all you want and nothing will ever happen - a betting line can move to 1.001 odds for a bo1, plus a match can look like a complete throw with a horrible acting on top - but as long as you say "no, i didnt do it" - you are golden. You will even get shielded by a majory of the community. Easy money, easy life.
Also i cant really believe that "statement" had enough power to sway some % of the people to the "there was zero evidence anyway" side. Jesus christ people, really?
Huh? It seems clear from this thread + the other that the majority of the community thinks he was match fixing or simply unconvinced... he isn't being "shielded by a majority of the community"...?
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thank you. There's a lot of new posters here that seem to think that TeamLiquid posters are being harsh for no reason. Unfortunately, a lot of the older posters at TL have seen this happen before, when one of the best players in Brood War history threw matches and brought down many others with him. There are a lot of coincidences, like Rekrul (who knows more than anyone else in this topic) informing us about what's going on in both cases.
Nobody wants to see stuff like this happen, but there's no reason to be mad about anyone expecting the worst, because things sure don't look good.
Just purely out of interest, because I don't know anything about the BW scandal other than reading a few things about it. I thought that it wasn't ever proved that Savior actually match fixed himself; he just was the coordinator? Or am I wrong
Both. Just search 마재윤 승부조작 in YouTube for some of his thrown matches (mainly ZvZ games)
It's kind of sad hearing about these match fixes. It's a sign showing how desperate people have become due to sc2 slow decent. Id like to think that if the teams were in better positions they wouldn't resort to petty methods to stay a float. As a player I am very disappointing and left feeling very unsatisfied, as a human I understand that when times get tough you gotta do what you gotta do and that's fine as long as you're not hurting other people.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
With all due respect though, there are very few of us who could truly see ourselves in MKP's position. You visualizing how you would have reacted (or not reacted) isn't necessarily the same as how a top tier progamer would approach the same thing., let alone with the level of tournament experience and exposure as MKP.
Right but the point is it isn't exactly inconceivable to legitimately make such a mistake. Even as a pro gamer such lapses can occur, it's the nature of being human.
He did not have vision of the "overlord" spot with any of his units for over a minute. He would have realized that.
It seems to me if you have already instantaneously assumed that it is an overlord you would totally ignore it; your focus would move on to everything else from then on and the thought that it is actually out of vision range would never occur. At least for me there is a disconnect - once my mind instantly assumes something like that and I deem it unimportant I will never pay an ounce of attention to it or think about it again. I guess most people's minds don't work like this judging by the reactions.
he didnt match fix. even before this, he released on his twitter (i think, it was on naver.com. basically korean google) that he was just really sucked at that match .
I recall in WoL that they showed a heat map of where the players' eyes were over the course of the game. Too bad this wasn't implemented wholly in tournaments. There would still be some questions that may not be totally put to rest, but it would resolve some of them.
In the end, people will have their opinions. Some who have spoken out quite bluntly even are well informed of the players, situation, etc.
I understand how data driven mechanics can be used to explain statistical oddities in games. The math is not as horrifying as people would seem to think. But, anybody that knows anything about math will tell you that you must stay objective when interpreting the results. This is where bettors (and bookers to a lesser degree) generally fail in there assessment of the results. They are almost always subjective.
Having those like Wolf that just starts with 'He threw' is pleasant in its frankness, but pretty damn lackluster as a convincing argument. Furthermore making assessments of 'never seen him look like that before', etc. does not lead to definitive guilt. Judging people's reactions in those situations is not as simple or as clean as 'you' or psychologists want to think.
Those that have a really hard time buying he didn't notice it for WAY too long are probably the most on point. It does seems ridicululously long. Even conceding the overlord vs spine issue, it seems questionable judgement to seemingly not react at that level...but i have seen a number of ladder games from high level folks that miss things just as bad about 1 in 50 games...like 'where the hell is my baneling speed? oh hell, hydra range...that would have been good to have now when i clicked the damn thing 100 seconds ago (oh and they looked right at the hydra den...twice), etc'
Granted, these are often not the top tier of the pros, but most of these folks can be found the right side of the screen. tldr: should have stopped at the first line.
everyone is putting their torch under the players asses. But if all those better were put in lightless deep holes and left there to rot the problem would be cut at the source. Betters and betting sites are a fucking plague.
There is zero explanation for anything MKP did that game, every single action was fishy. Add to it the suspicious betting line, there is really a lot of hard evidence that he match fixed, and if you don't see it then you are naive.
On April 21 2015 13:09 Charoisaur wrote: Disgusting some people still believe he matchfixed. Do you really think MK would lie?
Well...why wouldn't he? If he is guilty, then it's highly unlikely that he'd just admit to it outright.
His team has investigated it and they are sure he didn't matchfix, if that doesn't convince you I don't know what does.
Why should it convince us? MVP says almost nothing about what their reasoning was, and they're not exactly unbiased in this matter. He's one of their players, and it looks bad if he's guilty.
The argumentation of those who still believe he matchfixed is ridicolous."he made a mistake so the game was fixed. Progamers never make mistakes, they are perfect sc2 gods who always do the right decision" lol I bet half of you wouldn't have seen the spine either.
Far more than half of us aren't on the same level of skill as MKP. There's a big difference between some amateur player not noticing something on their minimap, and an experienced pro, especially when it's the early game and literally NOTHING is happening. Not to metion the fact that MKP's scouting showed that something fishy had to be happening.
On April 21 2015 14:19 GGzerG wrote: A little confused umm.....I think it is pretty obvious it was fixed
a lot of things in sc2 are really obvious but almost impossible to prove 100%, this includes match fixing, the suspiciously funded korean tournaments, winter's viewbots (until really recently), the girls who got boosted to gm, etc.
as TB said it's about burden of proof, most of the time the amount of evidence just isn't enough to say without a doubt that someone is guilty of misconduct.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
Having played in lan tournaments at a decent amateur level and years of gaming (I even played LAN showmatches vs Nada and herO where I was shaking with nerves). I've made collossal fuckups in game due to nerves/mental breakdowns but they're split second mistakes, reacting in a retarded way or not reacting for 5-10 seconds to something on the minimap (still really bad) but I've never come close to what MKP did. Anyone decent at the game won't miss something for that long. It's just not conceivable that a progamer of MKP's calibre can not react to something on the minimap for 30 seconds, let alone over a minute, with no natural going up on a map where the dot is beside his destructible back door. The game itself is damning, the betting lines are damning. Fanboyism/naivety is the only thing stopping people from seeing what 99.9% happened. The fixed BW games weren't nearly as obvious as this one.
As for the overlord argument. Overlords disappear in fog of war, any decent player knows instantly that it's a building once it sticks on the map outside of his vision.
and any decent player knows a forge is needed for a cannon rush.
EPT
