On April 21 2015 10:07 fruity. wrote: Here's the VOD of the game in question.
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
Call it confirmation bias but to me, MKP's surprised look and lean forward, several seconds after the creep has reached his cc, looks faked to me. Like who would actually do that? Also interesting that Wolf remarked on MKP's facial expression from the start looking different than he had ever seen it.
Combine this with the fact that he kept his reapers in his base and didn't even look for a proxy, didn't look at the dot on the minimap (and he would know it's not an ovie because he would know it's far enough from the edge of his vision to not be).
A theme in this thread seems to be 'they cancelled the bets therefore there is match fixing going on'. Sorry, but that in itself does not prove anything. It may be suspicious, but can't be used as any sort of proof on its own.
So where might any potential proof lie?
This is the point in the VOD where the weird shit happens. https://youtu.be/J-XbHBQAco8?t=267 Byul proxies a hatch, and soon after drops the first spine crawler, it's this spine crawler which is clearly seen on MK's minimap, the observer switches to first person view a couple of times, and you can clearly see it. A big blob within spitting distance of MK's main.
Now sometime in the past the our beloved Day9 did a daily on rotation. Basically: Check SCV production, check army production, check minimap. Rinse and repeat. Good advice. From the moment MK should see the spine crawler to when he actually reacts to it is 1minute 15 seconds in real time.
So am I to believe that a progamer who had his first offline tournament 5 years ago, whos whole life has been dedicated to SC is not going to check his minimap for that duration? Bullshit. Total bullshit. Most of the players here would've spotted that spine crawler faster than MK. Further if you watch MK there's a couple of times at least you can see him glancing down to the bottom left. The only reason to do this in SC is to check the minimap, they know where the keys are from muscle memory, there's no need to check hot groups...
Add in his body language, it's just wrong. Wolf comments on this.
Someone earlier said that it could've been an overlord. Sure that sounds good. But why didn't he go check? Why would he allow potential viewing of his base? Isn't the normal thing for anyone going up against zerg to think 'ooooh overlord - let me go kill it to maybe get a supply block'. Especially at the start (4-5ish mins in game time).
Now add in the fact that online betting sites tracked line movements which were odd and made them cancel the bets.
Is the above enough to convict MK? Each point I raise in isolation is not. But when you add them all together? For me at the very very least it's left me thinking that there will be a cloud over MK. Is that fair or reasonable on my part, perhaps not, but in the absence of real proof like a recorded phone conversation, and considering the points I raised above, is fucking well suspicious.
As for MVP's statement. I thank them for at least making a statement. Though I'm not exactly sure of what else they could say in the absence of definitive proof. But for me I just can't see how a progamer would not react to that in a million years. It must be unprecedented at this level of play, we're not talking about a medivac clipping a player's vision here. Were talking about static defence, outside MK's base clearly seen for over a minute.
so explain to me how a Korean pro good enough to beat a lot of well known other Korean pro's forgets that one needs a forge to cannon rush. explain how one forgets to research stim or combat shields than explain to me how that's so much more likely of a mistake to make than thinking a dot you don't have vision of is an overlord. or perhaps not noticing the dot at all.
Thinking you'd built a forge is a very rare lapse but the player would realise pretty quickly. Building the same building twice can happen too. Missing an upgrade is also believable if you thought you'd hit it as it's not checked that often. Mistakes happen but missing a dot on the minimap early game for over a minute, something progamers are constantly checking (a reaction time of more than a few seconds would be extremely slow), is completely unbelievable.
It's believable mainly if the argument is used that he thought the red dot was an overlord.
I could TOTALLY see myself in MKP's position sitting there deep in thought about what I'm going to do this game (or having my mind racing because of serious nerves) and then noticing the dot on the minimap and assuming it's an overlord because that's exactly where overlords always come from when I play zergs on expedition lost. It's very unlikely in the heat of the moment that I'm going to think "hey that might not actually be an overlord I should go look and make sure." I don't know about MKP but in my experience proxy hatch builds are EXTREMELY rare (to the extent that I haven't seen it on ladder in months) and I would never think of that as a possibility, especially in a proleague match. He was probably very confused when he saw the lack of a natural.
I'd imagine that having played thousands and thousands of games MKP would know that overlords don't show on the map when they're in fog of war.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
The wave ridding makes no sense. Nobody does that. A good bettor does the exact opposite. Whenever you see a big steam of money the opposite line gets more interesting to bet on. Why would anyone risk betting huge amounts of money at terrible odds? Either they lose it or the bet gets voided.
You may be right about the korean betting sides and that Pinnacle is just a side effect. What I and other bettors think is that the match fixer is selling the information to a group of people. That's why Pinnacle and other sites have probably trouble just banning the accounts of the fixers. It would be an easy fix otherwise. It would be quite obvious if only a low number of accounts bet tens of thousands of money on a single match. Bets got voided in cases when people tried to sell it to too many other people. I think there were a lot more cases when Pinnacle didn't void the bets but the match was clearly match fixed. (See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 )
Statement didn't address the betting line at all, just that the gameplay looked suspicious. If the betting lines didn't exist I'd 100% believe that there was no match fixing too
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
The wave ridding makes no sense. Nobody does that. A good bettor does the exact opposite. Whenever you see a big steam of money the opposite line gets more interesting to bet on. Why would anyone risk betting huge amounts of money at terrible odds? Either they lose it or the bet gets voided.
You may be right about the korean betting sides and that Pinnacle is just a side effect. What I and other bettors think is that the match fixer is selling the information to a group of people. That's why Pinnacle and other sites have probably trouble just banning the accounts of the fixers. It would be an easy fix otherwise. It would be quite obvious if only a low number of accounts bet tens of thousands of money on a single match. Bets got voided in cases when people tried to sell it to too many other people. I think there were a lot more cases when Pinnacle didn't void the bets but the match was clearly match fixed. (See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 )
We've already talked to Pinnacle and they seem hesitant to do anything to the accounts, since they can't prove that the accounts were in on the fix (illegal) and not merely riding the wave (not illegal). It's entirely possible that some Pinnacle bettors are buying for info on the fix, though, and then got greedy. Every instance of bets being voided is just stupidity on the part of the bettors. It's very very possible that there were other fixes that no one noticed, but there's also a chance that there were games that appeared fixed due to people trying to ride the wave and getting it wrong.
MVP did not prove MarineKing's innocence any more than his guilt has been proven. The statement may as well say, "we're not about to sabotage what money we eek out of Starcraft." I can hardly blame them, as they're probably not swimming in cash. The fan in me also would rather see a few more years of Starcraft, if the alternative is worse.
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thank you. There's a lot of new posters here that seem to think that TeamLiquid posters are being harsh for no reason. Unfortunately, a lot of the older posters at TL have seen this happen before, when one of the best players in Brood War history threw matches and brought down many others with him. There are a lot of coincidences, like Rekrul (who knows more than anyone else in this topic) informing us about what's going on in both cases.
Nobody wants to see stuff like this happen, but there's no reason to be mad about anyone expecting the worst, because things sure don't look good.
You don't even have to look at the VOD and analyze his body language or whatever. You can just look at the betting lines and activity.
It's not normal that thousands of dollars are bet against MKP despite the odds being heavily against the bettors. Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided. You're telling me that this is just a coincidence, that people will pump thousands of dollars with terrible odds and it just happens to always be in games where the person who they bet on wins in strange circumstances? And it just happened to be this match, where it looked like he threw?
Keep in mind its not normal for these amounts (tens of thousands of $ sometimes) to be placed on a single match. If this was just random, sometimes the bettors who bet these kinds of money against bad odds would lose, but they don't. They always win when they bet this much.
On April 21 2015 11:07 gyrus wrote: Well, marineking is basically your poster-child degenerate sc2 pro, so I'm not surprised in the slightest that he would be involved in something like this. Fits his image perfectly.
You know I'm a big MKP fan and I really want to see him innocent in this. Despite this I can accept the evidence pointing against him and can say that it really doesn't look good for him.
But I cannot understand your statement. When you talk about degeneration do you mean his emotionality? Because I always thought this was a sign that MKP was serious about the games he played. Not sure why you think that a gamer with such a mentality was predestined to matchfix.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
The wave ridding makes no sense. Nobody does that. A good bettor does the exact opposite. Whenever you see a big steam of money the opposite line gets more interesting to bet on. Why would anyone risk betting huge amounts of money at terrible odds? Either they lose it or the bet gets voided.
You may be right about the korean betting sides and that Pinnacle is just a side effect. What I and other bettors think is that the match fixer is selling the information to a group of people. That's why Pinnacle and other sites have probably trouble just banning the accounts of the fixers. It would be an easy fix otherwise. It would be quite obvious if only a low number of accounts bet tens of thousands of money on a single match. Bets got voided in cases when people tried to sell it to too many other people. I think there were a lot more cases when Pinnacle didn't void the bets but the match was clearly match fixed. (See http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 )
We've already talked to Pinnacle and they seem hesitant to do anything to the accounts, since they can't prove that the accounts were in on the fix (illegal) and not merely riding the wave (not illegal). It's entirely possible that some Pinnacle bettors are buying for info on the fix, though, and then got greedy. Every instance of bets being voided is just stupidity on the part of the bettors. It's very very possible that there were other fixes that no one noticed, but there's also a chance that there were games that appeared fixed due to people trying to ride the wave and getting it wrong.
Well that reassures my theory of the fixer selling the information part. Pinnacle wouldn't hestitate to ban accounts that are obviously involved, since they could potentially lose a lot of money there. They also have rules that give them permission to ban accounts without any need to comment on it.
That people see patterns on korean betting sides and then use that knowledge to bet on Pinnacle is certainly possible. We can however rule out that people see a big stream on smth and bet on it. That makes no sense as described above.
but there's also a chance that there were games that appeared fixed due to people trying to ride the wave and getting it wrong.
I think this is what might have happened in the Byul vs Terror match. In all the other suspicious games the player with the money on always won and those were a lot of cases. I don't think people were riding a wave, but somehow there must have been wrong information out there. Maybe people trying to sell off wrong information. But there are also other possibilities.
What concerns me is that this is literally the only thing we've heard after the game in question was probably the most suspicious thing we've seen in the history of professional SC2. Inexplicable mistakes. Multiple pros saying that there was pretty much no reasonable explanation. Voided bets. And thus far all we've got is one poorly written facebook post from MVP, who are hardly an unbiased party in the matter? Whether or not MKP is guilty, that's very worrying.
On April 21 2015 10:13 lichter wrote: Well at least it is something.
Regardless of how true the statement might be, one point that people are missing is the significance of MVP making a statement with a definite conclusion. MVP is an organization with teams in different esports. SC2 is just one of their teams, and likely their smallest and least profitable. By defending MarineKing and claiming that their investigation yielded no results, they are putting the organization's reputation on the line. Not just in SC2 but across different esports. If they did have any reason to doubt MarineKing or any other player, it makes more sense for them to either use that player as a scapegoat or avoid making definitive statements defending or condemning him. Now they've thrown the entire organization on the side of "he did not matchfix" and it has larger implications than just Starcraft.
One the one hand, the game is still fishy. It is a commonly accepted fact that illegal betting and matchfixing is common in Korea. On the other hand, I find this a curious statement to make. It makes more sense for them to give a vaguer conclusion that does not put them for or against MarineKing. This statement could have grave implications in the future that could harm them financially.
This is no reason to believe that MarineKing did not do it. This is also not a reason to believe that MVP's investigation was bogus. The statement does not really prove anything, but it does mean that MVP has put its reputation as an organization across multiple games on the line. I'd like to believe that they are not dumb enough to do this without understanding all the consequences of their actions, whatever the truth may be.
I had to chuckle because I just read:
On April 21 2015 09:55 GTR wrote:
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
To me it seems more like MVP is siding with MKP here because it's their player and that's what they need to do. If it later turns out that MKP was indeed matchfixing I doubt the consequences would be as severe as you describe. They would just publish a PR-response. It's not that that result would undermine their "investigation". Even if MKP was matchfixing they can hardly held accountable for not succesfully proving it with their investigation. It's not like the team MVP is voching for him. They say the investigations results are,... we believe in him,... nothing more.
There is a big difference between "I have decided to trust him" and "But at the very end, all evidence gave us the same answer – Lee was not matchfixing." One does not absolve him of blame while the other does. This isn't the same as a manager siding with a player after a bout of poor behavior or a team supporting a player after a misdemeanor. This is a team telling the world that their player is definitely innocent (of doing something illegal, not just some in-game foul or mistake) and that they're investigation yielded no proof otherwise.
This time the coach says he made an investigation. I mean sure, I agree that it is worded more strongly.
Both times a manager/coach sides with his player. I have no idea what his investigations included or if they even happened. I have to take his word for it similar to the 2010 case. That the coach says he made an investigation doesn't make a difference to me here. I have no proof or even a statement of what he has done exactly.
In MVP's statement they put themselves up to scrutiny. If it is revealed that MarineKing did throw then their reputation is tarnished due to the fact that they either did not investigate properly, or found it and then decided to hide it. However it could be that MVP's investigation is 100% legitimate and MarineKing didn't throw and that's why they feel confident enough to make this statement.
On April 21 2015 10:44 Hot_Bid wrote: Every single time that's happened, the person who was "supposed to lose" lost. It's like 6/6 or 7/7 now in every bet Pinnacle has voided.
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
There was odd line movement on two games that were not cancelled by pinnacle with 1w 1l but the line move wasnt anywhere near as suspicious as the 5 voided matches. 5/5 of the voided matches where the betting lines went totally nuts the player all of the money was bet against lost
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
On April 21 2015 10:56 Swoopae wrote: Would mvp be willing to release the replay for examination by the public?
Proleague replays aren't released as it is, so i doubt it
Mvp have access to the replay. They claim that it exonerates their player. Perhaps they could privately show it to a panel of trustworthy experts say totalbiscuit huk welmu kane rekrul and lichter or something if the replay cant be released publicly?
If they were going to do something like that they'd definately nbeed Kespa's permission. plus who decides who the experts are because I'm pretty sure MVP doesn't think that tb and TL staff are the best people to look at it (from their perspective) and would probably defer to Kespa who probably would have their own people. (no offense meant to TL staff and TB obv.)
I believe there was one or two (I think it was one) cases where the player that was supposed to lose won. I don't remember the specific game but I recall it being discussed.
Byul vs Terror. The betting lines were not voided. The betting lines were off but not as ridiculously as in the voided ones.
I think people also misunderstand the role of Pinnacle and Pinnacle's bettors in this. The matchfixers aren't betting on Pinnacle. Matchfixers are betting on Korean betting sites. The curious activity that occurs on Pinnacle is due to some observant bettors that look at the Korean betting sites taking advantage of what appear to be fixed games. When they see curious activity on Korean betting sites, they try to take advantage by betting the same way on Pinnacle. There are several possible scenarios possible from this type of activity:
1.) Multiple Pinnacle bettors try to ride the wave and the odds explode, leading to cancelled bets — this is what we've seen happen 2.) Only a handful of Pinnacle bettors notice the possible fix, and the odds don't move enough to give us a clue — since the lines did not get voided, we don't realize these games could have been fixed 3.) Pinnacle bettors see a potential fix, bet like crazy on it, only to realize it was not a fix — this may have happened with TerrOr vs ByuL, and it may have happened in other games as well (only to fortunately get it right)
That's why Pinnacle can't stop matchfixing or the illegal betting. What happens on Pinnacle is merely a bunch of bettors trying to ride the wave, and they have no direct involvement with the fixing.
I received an offer to have four fixed match results a year sold to me for 2k i cant speak to the legitimacy of the offer but if its legitimate the fixers sell results of some fixed matches which could be what led to those 5 matches specifically being voided
"I should trust him, and I have decided to trust him. It's not an empty saying, he truly is a great player. He is actually good, so he will keep showing good results."
"Even if Savior loses I will keep sending him out to games. He is to icon of CJ and I trust him. He has always been good and he is still good so I trust him."
Cho Kyu-nam, CJ Entus coach, 2010.
Thank you. There's a lot of new posters here that seem to think that TeamLiquid posters are being harsh for no reason. Unfortunately, a lot of the older posters at TL have seen this happen before, when one of the best players in Brood War history threw matches and brought down many others with him. There are a lot of coincidences, like Rekrul (who knows more than anyone else in this topic) informing us about what's going on in both cases.
Nobody wants to see stuff like this happen, but there's no reason to be mad about anyone expecting the worst, because things sure don't look good.
Just purely out of interest, because I don't know anything about the BW scandal other than reading a few things about it. I thought that it wasn't ever proved that Savior actually match fixed himself; he just was the coordinator? Or am I wrong
EPT
