Following reports that bettors on illegal gambling sites were involved in the sponsorship of online tournaments (read more), KeSPA announced that it would exercise caution in allowing its member players to participate in such tournaments.
KeSPA said that it is difficult to regulate such tournaments as they are run from outside of Korea, and it would need to decide carefully when allowing players to compete. Regardless of the honest intentions of the players, a KeSPA representative said players would not be allowed to compete if KeSPA did not fully trust the organizer and the format of a tournament.
is it wrong that i find the disparity between the "kespa too strict" and "kespa not strict enough" tones in the st forfeiture thread and the shady sponsor thread, respectively, kinda funny?
Let the KeSPA jail and KeSPA is the devil for having rules whinning begin!
I, for one, am happy with this even if it means less exposure for the players and it's actually a part of why KeSPA exists in the first: making sure things are okay.
Well, the thing is there are non-KeSPA players taking part in these events, and I'm pretty sure betters make money whether the players are from KeSPA or aren't >.>
I imagine KeSPA already has pretty strict rules when it comes to hosting lobbies, creating games, etc. I really hope that this kind of stuff can be easily prevented in the future and we don't have to worry about it. But, then again, any stream that provides a delay of that long with live spectators and multiple observers will always have a loophole for gamblers.
This sounds like a very good idea to me, not having kespa players probably reduces the hype and betting and it also means kespa players cant be part of this shady shit.
On February 10 2015 15:50 Waxangel wrote: KeSPA said that it is difficult to regulate such tournaments as they are run from outside of Korea, and it would need to decide carefully when allowing players to compete. Regardless of the honest intentions of the players, a KeSPA representative said players would not be allowed to compete if KeSPA did not fully trust the organizer and the format of a tournament.
Way to overreach KeSPA. You make it sound like anybody demanded that you personally have to put an end to this or that you are responsible for it. Nobody was asking you to regulate anything! Just put out a warning to your members. It sounds like all small tournament have to go through KeSPA now to become 'approved'.
Also what's with this xenophobic undertone? Cups are run from outside the country? Last I heard it was a primarily Korean issue...
You know what I really fucking hate? The fact that it's "KeSPa players". Not players from SKT, or Jin Air or CJ or so on. Not the teams get to decide, but the organisation in which the teams play. This is bullshit. Why let a single organisation rule over what a player from a team can do in an online tournament? Especially if the team he belongs in is fine with it? Are these assholes such control freaks that they can't relinquish it even for online tournaments?
I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
On February 10 2015 16:50 Naikonz wrote: You know what I really fucking hate? The fact that it's "KeSPa players". Not players from SKT, or Jin Air or CJ or so on. Not the teams get to decide, but the organisation in which the teams play. This is bullshit. Why let a single organisation rule over what a player from a team can do in an online tournament? Especially if the team he belongs in is fine with it? Are these assholes such control freaks that they can't relinquish it even for online tournaments?
Because KeSPA is not "an organisation" but a branch of the Korean Government. It's something that does exist anywhere else.
On February 10 2015 17:01 TheOneAboveU wrote: I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
This would be nice if they ever bothered to actually work with people outside of their little circle.
I might lack some key knowledge here - I don't now anything about sports betting - but I do not quite understand this. How is a tournament more ore less attractive for cheating at bets by its rules? It sounds like kespa is making online tournaments responsible for shadiness, while the cheating is actually done by bettors and perhaps some players (hopefully not). I really don't get it - do I miss something here?
Not sure if it just me either but im happy with this as well. Kespa strangely enough only made a few mess ups in SC2 imo and this is ok move to stop. Then again how will you be able to see which tournament is fake and real and also then if you stop most of them playing who want to win money it might be a tad harsh stopping people winning money.
On February 10 2015 17:01 TheOneAboveU wrote: I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
This would be nice if they ever bothered to actually work with people outside of their little circle.
Yep, something like that. This means Kespa would have to be very active to make things work, and that's quite a big "if". I wonder if they'd bother employing someone to check for all the potential event organizers from the foreign scene. I guess wolf/tastosis would need to do extra work to convince Kespa to allow players to play with reliable hosts such as basetrade.
On February 10 2015 17:01 TheOneAboveU wrote: I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
KeSPA isn't there to protect its players, it's there to protect it's business. There's a difference. KeSPA is a corporate enitity which main purpose is to generate revenue and make profit
I mean...this is not very good for the up and coming players. Who would Solar be if it weren't for his participation in smaller online tournaments?
On the other hand, I don't believe this is a bad move on behalf of KeSPA. Betting scandal almost killed Starcraft 1, there must be steps taken to prevent the same outcome from happening in Starcraft 2.
On February 10 2015 17:01 TheOneAboveU wrote: I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
Sure it's like government. All for people, i mean players
On February 10 2015 17:29 fronkschnonk wrote: I might lack some key knowledge here - I don't now anything about sports betting - but I do not quite understand this. How is a tournament more ore less attractive for cheating at bets by its rules? It sounds like kespa is making online tournaments responsible for shadiness, while the cheating is actually done by bettors and perhaps some players (hopefully not). I really don't get it - do I miss something here?
Here's the gist.
Korean gambler would pay money to sponsor some online tournament. As a sponsor they would ask for privileges like observing games and putting a stream delay (which is usually done anyways to prevent cheating).
(Optionally?) the gambler would also pay or otherwise convince well known players to participate in these small tournaments.
Hype would ensure and illiegal sportsbooks would cover the tournament and accept bets on the outcome.
Gambler would use obs position to 'tell the future' and bet on the games and win money.
It's further complicated by the fact that gamblers can disguise themselves as actual game observers, tourny admins or even translators. So just scrutinizing sponsors isn't enough to weed them out.
This cuts both ways. On the one hand it would be nice to put this problem to rest; on the other hand, it seems likely that kespa will err on the side of caution/exclusiveness. I'm reminded of the Destiny I tournament, when a kespa rep said "what would KeSPA's benefit be for sending players?" When it comes to small online tournaments, the answer is going to be "very little." What with SPL, GSL, and NSSL, KeSPA itself has little need to send its big-name players anywhere else, even though it benefits all players to get as much exposure as they like, anywhere they like.
I wouldn't be so sure....they're not saying they can't play these tournaments or won't allow them to, simply that they're going to be "cautious" in what tournaments they can play. IE: I think if they trust the runner of the tournament or its held in Korea like the Olimoleague, nothing changes, they're simply not going to allow their players to play in it if they don't trust the runner or don't know them well enough.
Sounds like a pretty straightforward decision from KeSPA. Showing investors and collaborating parties how they deal with issues like this and how timely they can be. Keeping the integrity of the game as a top priority to protect their national sport. They will do this 10 out of 10 times. They will not tolerate any shady play.
KeSPA rolls on it's own rules and always has. We're lucky that there are rules. They usually know what they can and can't get done.
On February 10 2015 15:50 Waxangel wrote: KeSPA said that it is difficult to regulate such tournaments as they are run from outside of Korea, and it would need to decide carefully when allowing players to compete. Regardless of the honest intentions of the players, a KeSPA representative said players would not be allowed to compete if KeSPA did not fully trust the organizer and the format of a tournament.
Way to overreach KeSPA. You make it sound like anybody demanded that you personally have to put an end to this or that you are responsible for it. Nobody was asking you to regulate anything! Just put out a warning to your members. It sounds like all small tournament have to go through KeSPA now to become 'approved'.
Also what's with this xenophobic undertone? Cups are run from outside the country? Last I heard it was a primarily Korean issue...
try to think bout it again ,with all your neurons connected this time, and you'll see this decison totally make sense. ANd it's not xenophobic, they just state they have little to no control on these tournaments.
On February 10 2015 17:01 TheOneAboveU wrote: I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
This would be nice if they ever bothered to actually work with people outside of their little circle.
They actually do if you're patient/competent enough., TB last Shoutcraft had some KeSPA superstars in it (and was a blast, easily the best online sc2 tournament to date)
On February 10 2015 17:01 TheOneAboveU wrote: I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
This would be nice if they ever bothered to actually work with people outside of their little circle.
They actually do if you're patient/competent enough.
On February 10 2015 17:01 TheOneAboveU wrote: I like the step by KeSPA - if you want to have KeSPA players in your tournament now, you have to make sure that everything is working properly (legally!), and thats the reason KeSPA exists in the first place, right? To protects its players and the competition.
This would be nice if they ever bothered to actually work with people outside of their little circle.
They actually do if you're patient/competent enough.
Good move. I don't think Kespa will just forbid its players from entering online cups, but they'll probably will ask the organizers for some conditions (reveal the sponsor, no too many observers , etc.) or ask their own players to report if they see something fishy during the tournament.
On February 10 2015 19:53 digmouse wrote: It's not that bad, they are not going to ban everything, if you have a good back story kespa is not going to shut you down.
Let hope, it looks like its being used as a pretext for a control grab.... If not I guess it indirectly helps the foreign scene live on in a world without effective practice.
This doesn't exactly help much given a lot of KR players are outside of KeSPA and further restricts the non-superstar players from chances to get practice and some cash but here's to a large hope that the restrictions KeSPA put onto teams isn't too draconian that legit cups can't get enough players to make them viable.
I think this is a good move depending on if they (kespa) actually put some effort in vetting small online tournament organizers and not just outright dismiss then. That would just hurt the scene.
Then again BasetradeTV, for example, manages to put up solid tournaments without a single Korean in them, so it's not like it's the end of the world if no KeSPA player show up.
Does it even required a statement from Kespa ? it seems obvious that they'll never work with shady organisations Or is there a link with the recent betting issue during Dark vs San ? in that case, nice taunt :p or worst soon 05/16/2010 again (match fixing scandal) ?
We're kespa, your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Apm too low, error, apm too low, cancel assimilation. no biological and technological distinctiveness detected.
I don't understand all the hate, isn't this what Kespa is supposed to do? Make statements like this? I'm glad that they're taking the necessary precautions to protect their players and the integrity of the scene, but maybe that's a silly thought from me smh
Is this more incentive to leave kespa after getting your training? If you're a beast, why not make your money by participating in as many tournies as you can as opposed to focusing on proleague, gsl, etc where you know you'll probably lose.
On February 11 2015 00:52 Deathstar wrote: Is this more incentive to leave kespa after getting your training? If you're a beast, why not make your money by participating in as many tournies as you can as opposed to focusing on proleague, gsl, etc where you know you'll probably lose.
Because in Korea you have to be the best, they have a strong "first or nothing" mentality.
And everyone knows that to be considered as the best, you have to play GSL/NSSL.
On February 11 2015 00:52 Deathstar wrote: Is this more incentive to leave kespa after getting your training? If you're a beast, why not make your money by participating in as many tournies as you can as opposed to focusing on proleague, gsl, etc where you know you'll probably lose.
It's probably more incentive to stay with a KeSPA team as then you atleast know you'll have a stable good salary as a progamer provided you are in the A Team of the team you are in which most are nowadays as KeSPA teams don't have a big roster anymore in SC2.
you ppl are really something blizzard forces a whole industry to switch to a really bad game audience rating plumet sponsors leave ppl go illegal betting to make a living and now players get blamed
On February 11 2015 01:03 Boonbag wrote: you ppl are really something blizzard forces a whole industry to switch to a really bad game audience rating plumet sponsors leave ppl go illegal betting to make a living and now players get blamed
You mean just like some BroodWar players did? Despite how huge BW was?
That matchfixing scandal thing was also illegal betting.
Don't bring your SC2 hate as a reason this shit is happening thanks.
On February 11 2015 01:03 Boonbag wrote: you ppl are really something blizzard forces a whole industry to switch to a really bad game audience rating plumet sponsors leave ppl go illegal betting to make a living and now players get blamed
Congratulations. This is the dumbest post I've read on this topic the past 2 days. That's quite the achievement.
On February 11 2015 01:03 Boonbag wrote: you ppl are really something blizzard forces a whole industry to switch to a really bad game audience rating plumet sponsors leave ppl go illegal betting to make a living and now players get blamed
On February 11 2015 00:58 geokilla wrote: So I guess no more KeSPA players in online tournaments now.
KeSPA isn't saying that their players can't play online tournaments, merely that they're going to be cautious and only allow them to play in the ones they trust. Put it this way, if TB (Just using him cause he posted in thread and has worked with KeSPA before) announced another Shoutcraft Invitational tomorrow I doubt KeSPA would block their players, they might ask to see who is the sponsor and who is on the observer list, which given the current circumstances is perfectly within reason.
I doubt Olimoleague has any problems, Olimoley has already stated she won't allow Korean casters/observers because of this. There will be always a tournament out there KeSPA players can play in, it just is a smaller pool of them
On February 11 2015 00:58 geokilla wrote: So I guess no more KeSPA players in online tournaments now.
KeSPA isn't saying that their players can't play online tournaments, merely that they're going to be cautious and only allow them to play in the ones they trust. Put it this way, if TB (Just using him cause he posted in thread and has worked with KeSPA before) announced another Shoutcraft Invitational tomorrow I doubt KeSPA would block their players, they might ask to see who is the sponsor and who is on the observer list, which given the current circumstances is perfectly within reason.
I doubt Olimoleague has any problems, Olimoley has already stated she won't allow Korean casters/observers because of this. There will be always a tournament out there KeSPA players can play in, it just is a smaller pool of them
We'll have to see how it goes, but right now it's more likely that KeSPA will not do a good job because its attitude towards small tournaments is not good.
On February 10 2015 18:24 Blargh wrote: Kespa's new excuse for not allowing any of its players to ever participate in any online events ever.
Yup.
This or very """"reasonable"""" rules (like that retarded free agency rule) to be able to make a torunament.
And the worst part is there will be people saying they are right.
I suppose you prefer the world where every minor team disbands / doesn't pay its players / has shady as fuck practices / not liable to anything / allows its players to participate in bet or match fixing tournaments that don't pay out on time (if ever) then?
On February 10 2015 18:24 Blargh wrote: Kespa's new excuse for not allowing any of its players to ever participate in any online events ever.
Yup.
This or very """"reasonable"""" rules (like that retarded free agency rule) to be able to make a torunament.
And the worst part is there will be people saying they are right.
I suppose you prefer the world where every minor team disbands / doesn't pay its players / has shady as fuck practices / not liable to anything / allows its players to participate in bet or match fixing tournaments that don't pay out on time (if ever) then?
Tons of KeSPA Teams disbanded and Savior happened on KeSPA.
On February 10 2015 18:24 Blargh wrote: Kespa's new excuse for not allowing any of its players to ever participate in any online events ever.
Yup.
This or very """"reasonable"""" rules (like that retarded free agency rule) to be able to make a torunament.
And the worst part is there will be people saying they are right.
I suppose you prefer the world where every minor team disbands / doesn't pay its players / has shady as fuck practices / not liable to anything / allows its players to participate in bet or match fixing tournaments that don't pay out on time (if ever) then?
Tons of KeSPA Teams disbanded and Savior happened on KeSPA.
Tons of kespa teams diabanded DUE to betting scandal and 1 case of parent company bankruptcy, that's why there's harsher rules in place NOW to prevent it from happening AGAIN. Get your facts straight, there's causality here that shows exactly why we need these regulations. Even if you want to blame kespa for those disbandings, compare that to the environment outside kespa and tell me which is better.
On February 11 2015 08:44 Starecat wrote: I don't see how forcing five years teamless to be considered free agent or other of their bullshit can prevent matchfixing...
Lol, well Kespa should withdrawn SC2, anyway is not like the masses are there.
On February 10 2015 18:24 Blargh wrote: Kespa's new excuse for not allowing any of its players to ever participate in any online events ever.
Yup.
This or very """"reasonable"""" rules (like that retarded free agency rule) to be able to make a torunament.
And the worst part is there will be people saying they are right.
The major korean sponsors behind kespa don't want their players associated with illegal gambling. Image is everything. Why endanger proleague and player salaries over crappy online tourneys?
On February 10 2015 18:24 Blargh wrote: Kespa's new excuse for not allowing any of its players to ever participate in any online events ever.
Yup.
This or very """"reasonable"""" rules (like that retarded free agency rule) to be able to make a torunament.
And the worst part is there will be people saying they are right.
The major korean sponsors behind kespa don't want their players associated with illegal gambling. Image is everything. Why endanger proleague and player salaries over crappy online tourneys?
On February 10 2015 18:24 Blargh wrote: Kespa's new excuse for not allowing any of its players to ever participate in any online events ever.
Yup.
This or very """"reasonable"""" rules (like that retarded free agency rule) to be able to make a torunament.
And the worst part is there will be people saying they are right.
I suppose you prefer the world where every minor team disbands / doesn't pay its players / has shady as fuck practices / not liable to anything / allows its players to participate in bet or match fixing tournaments that don't pay out on time (if ever) then?
Tons of KeSPA Teams disbanded and Savior happened on KeSPA.
Tons of kespa teams diabanded DUE to betting scandal and 1 case of parent company bankruptcy, that's why there's harsher rules in place NOW to prevent it from happening AGAIN. Get your facts straight, there's causality here that shows exactly why we need these regulations. Even if you want to blame kespa for those disbandings, compare that to the environment outside kespa and tell me which is better.
Hmm, let's look at it chronologically:
eSTRO - IEG saw no point in remaining if they weren't able to make the most of their Proleague rights. Also, financial issues. OGN Sparkyz - A significant amount of their team were involved in the scandal. It would have been impossible to rebuild the team. Also, wanting to even out the Proleague teams, a merger happened between CJ (parent company of OGN) and the OGN team itself which eventuated. MBCgame HERO - With the transition of MBCgame to MBC Music, MBC saw no need for a pro team anymore. Wemade FOX - Financial troubles. Hwaseung OZ - Desire to focus on 'real sports' (which I think is a load of shit, just wanted to use the match fixing scandal as an excuse to leave a dying market) STX Soul - Went bankrupt. Woongjin Stars - Parent company went bankrupt.
So sure, besides Sparkyz, all of the other teams had different reasons for disbanding. But, I'm more than certain the match fixing scandal played a huge part on their decision to leave the industry.
On February 10 2015 16:02 neobowman wrote: Kespa's in a really shitty spot tbh. No matter what they do about this right now, it can come off as negative.
why would it? let the players play. if they can't come up with enough money (or distribute the money they have correctly), or opportunities to play, that many players feel the need to play in smaller tournaments, that's kespa's fault. taking the line of "we can't police it, so we'll just ban it" is comical
I like KeSPA giving a shit about this, I really honestly do.
But here's what I don't understand. The allegations we've been hearing have absolutely positively included online KR tournaments. In fact one of the few tournaments that came under explicit suspicion (rightly or wrongly) was Smallest Map Possible, which is, you guessed it, Korean!
How does KeSPA players not participating in non-KR events help if (a part of) the problem is in Korea? "It is difficult to regulate such tournaments as they are run from outside of Korea" seems like a puzzling statement when KR events are coming under suspicion. Maybe the translation in the OP is incomplete, and KeSPA is going to regulate Korean weekly events (and would regulate non-Korean ones, but that is very difficult for obvious reasons)? I definitely want more info.
On February 10 2015 16:02 neobowman wrote: Kespa's in a really shitty spot tbh. No matter what they do about this right now, it can come off as negative.
why would it? let the players play. if they can't come up with enough money (or distribute the money they have correctly), or opportunities to play, that many players feel the need to play in smaller tournaments, that's kespa's fault. taking the line of "we can't police it, so we'll just ban it" is comical
They are going to attempt to police it. Thr problem is going to stem from "private sponsors". If organizations can say "These are our sponsors, thanks to them, we are getting the finances to run this tournament and pay the players" then KeSPA can look into it and say "this is a legit tournament.
If a million tournaments are going to say "we are getting money from somewhere, but that somewhere is none of your business", then KeSPA isn't going to trust them as credible tournment hosts, and thus they won't have KeSPA players.
Their job is to support eSports, not to magically provide magnificant opportunities to everyone with a dream. If you don't have money, you still don't accept money from strangers with odd deals to make with you. That's called shady and untrustworthy, and could fuck you or somebody else over in real life.
On February 11 2015 00:58 geokilla wrote: So I guess no more KeSPA players in online tournaments now.
KeSPA isn't saying that their players can't play online tournaments, merely that they're going to be cautious and only allow them to play in the ones they trust. Put it this way, if TB (Just using him cause he posted in thread and has worked with KeSPA before) announced another Shoutcraft Invitational tomorrow I doubt KeSPA would block their players, they might ask to see who is the sponsor and who is on the observer list, which given the current circumstances is perfectly within reason.
I doubt Olimoleague has any problems, Olimoley has already stated she won't allow Korean casters/observers because of this. There will be always a tournament out there KeSPA players can play in, it just is a smaller pool of them
It seems unlikely that KeSPA would keep their players out of larger online events, particularly Sandisk-sized tournaments with major name sponsors. This will only be an issue for smaller events with sketchy sponsors and frankly KeSPA is doing what they're supposed to be doing, protecting the scene and their players from potential criminal activity.
I wonder if Kespa is going to take it seriously when the world's largest sportsbook has now cancelled bets on a proleague match, a Code S match and this week now (as of what I last heard) they are investigating a Starleague match for 'not being played on a fair basis'and have frozen bets on it pending investigation (as of a few hrs ago)
At the very least Kespa should investigate. If they're not going to keep their leagues and players clean, then what's the point of Kespa even existing?
On February 11 2015 20:52 pure.Wasted wrote: I like KeSPA giving a shit about this, I really honestly do.
But here's what I don't understand. The allegations we've been hearing have absolutely positively included online KR tournaments. In fact one of the few tournaments that came under explicit suspicion (rightly or wrongly) was Smallest Map Possible, which is, you guessed it, Korean!
How does KeSPA players not participating in non-KR events help if (a part of) the problem is in Korea? "It is difficult to regulate such tournaments as they are run from outside of Korea" seems like a puzzling statement when KR events are coming under suspicion. Maybe the translation in the OP is incomplete, and KeSPA is going to regulate Korean weekly events (and would regulate non-Korean ones, but that is very difficult for obvious reasons)? I definitely want more info.
So... uh... seems like a good time to quote this post in great anticipation of a non-forthcoming answer.
Kespa where is your response? If you don't think match fixing is going on then go ahead and say so. If you're willing to investigate but haven't yet, say that. The silence is deafening. Your league is dirty right now. Your job is to keep it clean.
EPT
