Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST)
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
This game makes no sense to me at all, any way I look at it, throwing or not the decisions made by San were totally insane to make.
Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what he would've been thinking at the 8:50 roach slip?
Edit: Right he couldn't recall because he just lost the MSC fighting at 8:11.. So why the hell wouldn't a toss warp in a sentry to deny the roach run-by?
On January 23 2015 03:27 Canucklehead wrote: Have the korean netizens talked about this at all?
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that they don't want to talk about it. Too much "shame" and bad memories from the BW days? Too much danger of saying something wrong or "accusing".
Yeah, that's why I was wondering if the korean netizens have said anything yet because it's been almost 2 days and I haven't seen one comment in this thread translating comments from korean netizens. Usually in drama cases involving korea you get someone translating some comments from korean message boards but in this case I've seen nada.
Ok, so why aren't the foreign pros and team leaders talking about it?
Well what would you have them say?
I would like to see a pros breakdown of that game from GM level players. Hear people discuss that game, if it was weird, how weird. How often do they lose a MSC to a queen off creep? Why did he only make 1 probe at a time once he was on 3 nexus, w/ only 45 probes?
Also, when the match fixing happened in BW. How did the news start to leak out? Was there an initial backlash? Did Kespa get in trouble, or did only players? People still in SC2 that were around then might have some excellent insights. Is this history repeating itself or not?
Basically, I would have them honestly talk about their experience and give their opinions.
Things that are not permitted if the conclusion is m****f*****.
The only public place this is being discussed is here and its only barely allowed here.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
On January 22 2015 21:03 xuanzue wrote: I like the pattern of posters claiming the total superior authority of pinnacle are accounts with less than 10 posts.
bigger organizations with better reputations (than pinnacle) had acted very bad in the past.
Such as KeSPA's Warcraft 3 league being fixed to give Orcs an edge?
On January 22 2015 19:05 EmoFin wrote: C) Nothing happened - it was all legit / "maybe some drunk rich kid betting for lulz xDDD"/ "rofl some bookie dont want to pay up xDDD" If you think that C) is anything more than 0.001% - its not even worth to be arguing with you.
Sorry, I don't mean to start an argument, but can you explain why this is so unlikely for someone without any experience in betting?
For me, again without any experience, it felt kindof reasonable that in the thousand of sc2 games played, there would be "some drunk rich kid betting for lulz xDDD" in one of the games. It maybe didn't feel super likely, but I'd hesitate to discard such an event in so many sc2 games when so much is on the line for the player.
So well, if you can explain what you base the "below 0.001%", I'd certainly be happy.
One thing people are forgetting is that there was a max bet limit on San-Dark. Reading through the thread I think it was 1k*, which should mean it was impossible for a single yolo-bet to move the line. I don't use Pinnacle though, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume max-bet means you need lots of accounts if you wanted to drop 5 figures on the match. That really gets into the coordinated and deliberate effort territory.
* apparently the normal max bet on SC2 is $100, this one was $1k because of how much action it was getting, which is doubly suspicious.
On January 22 2015 20:55 Ketch wrote: Can someone explain me, or was it already explained, why the betting line would be so obvious if "the bad guys" wanted to cheat the betting system? They should expect Pinnacle to detect it with this betting strategy, or not?
In other news, a Dutch study today revealed that most suspicious betting activities in football (soccer) are detected with matches in upper leagues and also that 90% is betting on total goals or goal difference. Also most of the suspicious bets are upfront and not live. Link
Other than greed, I think the max bet limit is what tripped them up as they had to make more accounts to bet, otherwise how is it worth their money to fix a game? Again I could be wrong with how Pinnacle works though.
Also, going way back to Solar-Vortix, wasn't Vortix favored? He did win the match after all. To reiterate, the way these things usually work is paying the underdog to lose so that a 'good' bet becomes a 'sure' bet and no one's suspicious like the early parts of the thread where people tried to claim Dark was an 85% favorite over San.
The game starting at 9 minutes 30. Watch the +2 attack upgrade, I think it shows San cancelled it.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
all time are VOD times. I don't see any reason this is a UI bug and not just a cancellation and restart of the upgrade.
The game starting at 9 minutes 30. Watch the +2 attack upgrade, I think it shows San cancelled it.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
all time are VOD times. I don't see any reason this is a UI bug and not just a cancellation and restart of the upgrade.
Please remember that people have forgotten to upgrade to Warpgate. Built a infestion pit to build infestors when they already have one from earlier swarm host action and stuff though.
HuK also cancelled his warpgate at like 95% here
But yes I do agree given the circumstances it's more suspicious. Especially since San didn't do any sign of frustration when he cancelled it like HuK did.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
I'll say this, I'm trying to figure out if it was infact a UI glitch or not.
If San did cancel the upgrade Dark's +2 should finish before San's (they were researching at the same time) But it looks like San's finished before Dark's? This is just really weird to me. At 11:00 you can see Dark's and San's upgrades are almost the same level of completion. So, the upgrade went from half complete, to reset, to half complete again in the span of about 20-25 seconds. It might actually be a UI bug? I'm def going to test this out when I get home.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
I'll say this, I'm trying to figure out if it was infact a UI glitch or not.
If San did cancel the upgrade Dark's +2 should finish before San's (they were researching at the same time) But it looks like San's finished before Dark's? This is just really weird to me. At 11:00 you can see Dark's and San's upgrades are almost the same level of completion. So, the upgrade went from half complete, to reset, to half complete again in the span of about 20-25 seconds. It might actually be a UI bug? I'm def going to test this out when I get home.
These are VOD times @9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
You can see a smooth normal progress bar on the restart of the +2 starting at 10:30. The progress appears to move faster during some intervals probably because of chrono.
I think a replay would make it obvious. We've seen many suspicious things from San outside of seeing his actual vision, if he did throw the match, the replay will probably show a good bit more.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
I'll say this, I'm trying to figure out if it was infact a UI glitch or not.
If San did cancel the upgrade Dark's +2 should finish before San's (they were researching at the same time) But it looks like San's finished before Dark's? This is just really weird to me. At 11:00 you can see Dark's and San's upgrades are almost the same level of completion. So, the upgrade went from half complete, to reset, to half complete again in the span of about 20-25 seconds. It might actually be a UI bug? I'm def going to test this out when I get home.
These are VOD times @9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
You can see a smooth normal progress bar on the restart of the +2 starting at 10:30. The progress appears to move faster during some intervals probably because of chrono.
I think a replay would make it obvious. We've seen many suspicious things from San outside of seeing his actual vision, if he did throw the match, the replay will probably show a good bit more.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
I'll say this, I'm trying to figure out if it was infact a UI glitch or not.
If San did cancel the upgrade Dark's +2 should finish before San's (they were researching at the same time) But it looks like San's finished before Dark's? This is just really weird to me. At 11:00 you can see Dark's and San's upgrades are almost the same level of completion. So, the upgrade went from half complete, to reset, to half complete again in the span of about 20-25 seconds. It might actually be a UI bug? I'm def going to test this out when I get home.
These are VOD times @9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
You can see a smooth normal progress bar on the restart of the +2 starting at 10:30. The progress appears to move faster during some intervals probably because of chrono.
You do not need VOD or in-game times to tell that this was a UI glitch. Just the comparison alone between San's and Dark's upgrades is enough evidence that the UI glitched out and incorrectly displayed the progress of the upgrade.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
I'll say this, I'm trying to figure out if it was infact a UI glitch or not.
If San did cancel the upgrade Dark's +2 should finish before San's (they were researching at the same time) But it looks like San's finished before Dark's? This is just really weird to me. At 11:00 you can see Dark's and San's upgrades are almost the same level of completion. So, the upgrade went from half complete, to reset, to half complete again in the span of about 20-25 seconds. It might actually be a UI bug? I'm def going to test this out when I get home.
These are VOD times @9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
You can see a smooth normal progress bar on the restart of the +2 starting at 10:30. The progress appears to move faster during some intervals probably because of chrono.
You do not need VOD or in-game times to tell that this was a UI glitch. Just the comparison alone between San's and Dark's upgrades is enough evidence that the UI glitched out and incorrectly displayed the progress of the upgrade.
Protoss has chronoboost. That's how the upgrade caught up after the 11 minute mark.
The point is, he cancelled the upgrade between 10:25 and 10:35 VOD time.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
I'll say this, I'm trying to figure out if it was infact a UI glitch or not.
If San did cancel the upgrade Dark's +2 should finish before San's (they were researching at the same time) But it looks like San's finished before Dark's? This is just really weird to me. At 11:00 you can see Dark's and San's upgrades are almost the same level of completion. So, the upgrade went from half complete, to reset, to half complete again in the span of about 20-25 seconds. It might actually be a UI bug? I'm def going to test this out when I get home.
These are VOD times @9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
You can see a smooth normal progress bar on the restart of the +2 starting at 10:30. The progress appears to move faster during some intervals probably because of chrono.
You do not need VOD or in-game times to tell that this was a UI glitch. Just the comparison alone between San's and Dark's upgrades is enough evidence that the UI glitched out and incorrectly displayed the progress of the upgrade.
Protoss has chronoboost. That's how the upgrade caught up after the 11 minute mark.
The point is, he cancelled the upgrade between 10:25 and 10:35 VOD time.
Alright fine, lets break it down. At 10:55 the upgrade is started. At 13:45 the upgrade finishes. thats 2mins and 50 seconds. The upgrade takes 190 seconds to complete (or 3 mins and 10 seconds). IF he cancelled it at half way, then proceeded to chrono it (with nexi he doesn't have) until it completes it'd still take 2mins and 5 seconds to complete. The "reset" occurs at 12:04 in game. The upgrade finishes at 13:45. 1 min and 41 seconds later.
On January 23 2015 04:04 iMOOrtal wrote: Anyone watching this game again + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmNAolX4wPw
Aside from the obvious not attacking with immo allin, and losing the MSC at 8:11
Why doesn't San make a sentry at 8:50 to FF out the roaches? He has the gas and minerals but instead warps in 2 zealots and a stalker? I guess he's about to recall back but really, this is very odd to me.
Also something generally strange with the UI I noticed, around 9:55 it shows San's +2 about 30% complete on the production tab, then a couple seconds later its at 0% like he canceled then restarted it. Then a few seconds later its back to normal.
Its not the UI, he cancelled it and then chrono'd. Essentially delaying the upgrade and wasting chrono.
@9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
So that's essentially the most suspicious thing to me then. Considering the background information we now have. *If that's what happened and it wasn't a UI glitch
I agree. I think you found the gaming evidence to warrant speaking that which can not be spoken.
I'll say this, I'm trying to figure out if it was infact a UI glitch or not.
If San did cancel the upgrade Dark's +2 should finish before San's (they were researching at the same time) But it looks like San's finished before Dark's? This is just really weird to me. At 11:00 you can see Dark's and San's upgrades are almost the same level of completion. So, the upgrade went from half complete, to reset, to half complete again in the span of about 20-25 seconds. It might actually be a UI bug? I'm def going to test this out when I get home.
These are VOD times @9:33 in game you can see the start of +2 @10:15 +2 is about 30% @10:25 you can see the restart of it @10:35 you can see +2 ~ 10% @11:00 +2 ~50% @11:30 +2 is almost done.
You can see a smooth normal progress bar on the restart of the +2 starting at 10:30. The progress appears to move faster during some intervals probably because of chrono.
You do not need VOD or in-game times to tell that this was a UI glitch. Just the comparison alone between San's and Dark's upgrades is enough evidence that the UI glitched out and incorrectly displayed the progress of the upgrade.
Protoss has chronoboost. That's how the upgrade caught up after the 11 minute mark.
The point is, he cancelled the upgrade between 10:25 and 10:35 VOD time.
Alright fine, lets break it down. At 10:55 the upgrade is started. At 13:45 the upgrade finishes. thats 2mins and 50 seconds. The upgrade takes 190 seconds to complete (or 3 mins and 10 seconds). IF he cancelled it at half way, then proceeded to chrono it (with nexi he doesn't have) until it completes it'd still take 2mins and 5 seconds to complete. The "reset" occurs at 12:04 in game. The upgrade finishes at 13:45. 1 min and 41 seconds later.
Agreed. Thanks for breaking it down. He couldn't have chrono'd it enough to have restarted it, therefore it must be a UI bug instead of a cancellation. That is if it does take 125 seconds for +2 to finish w/ chrono.
EPT
