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Both suspects, SCgoodman, and Keke, are from NeXT.
SCgoodman, in an astonishing fashion, defeats iAsonu with a score of 2:1. He was on live on DouyuTV while playing against iA. He was suspected cheating on air. When asked by audience and his opponent to authenticate that he did not use a hacker, he closes his stream. He later was accused by forum of using hacker and disguise to establish credibility. NeverSteam, the famous amateur protoss player who is currently on Team LEor and due to join Zenith of Origin, made his observation on tieba, a Chinese forum and said such victory is 'dubious'. http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3513829720?pn=1
Also on tieba, Keke’s victory are also questioned with rep analysis.
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3514439915?pn=1
SCgoodman admitted to me that he used maphacks before, but claimed not this time.
All instances are under investigation conducted by WCS China staff.
On January 08 2015 16:42 FruitsbasketCN wrote:WCS Season 1: Chinese Qualifier. Round 1 "scgoodman" used maphack,and beat iG.IA. Scgoodman in the game did not do any investigation Using his perfect forecast, defend all ia attack. He is lucky? In the past he had because of the use Maphack, was DQ from MCL(Matchday clan league,which is Chinese top amateur league) Today, Blizzard said it did not detect any cheating. This means that Blizzard has been unable to pass a technical inspection maphack. Now, maphack can streaming by OBS. Computer screen and OBS screen are not the same This is really shame. If you can read Chinese, you can find more information in the following pages http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3513829720http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3514279148http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3515602052Replays: http://pan.baidu.com/s/1mg5MY60
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Damn. I hope they resolve things soon.
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That would be really disappointing for iA if he was considering retirement and then got knocked out of the qualifers by someone who maphacked and wasn't caught. Good on WCS china for trying to figure this out
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NA and China both huh? ;~; Players on NA have been mentioning how this season has been the worst yet for hackers and it looks like there are issues elsewhere also  Hope they figure it out~
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On the bright side, now blizzard will FINALLY do something about this.
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Unfortunate fact of life on the CN server...
Great example though of how screwed the community is in terms of playing fair games because anti cheating efforts aren't prioritized on any level (thanks though for making widow mines, fixing them, un-fixing them, re-un-fixing them...)
If this isn't fundamentally resolved it will eventually deter the (dwindling?) remaining players of this game from continuing to play (and even spectate at some point) after the last expansion comes out. It taints all kinds of play on all levels-- though I assume the fanbase (not to alienate the huge number of players who only bought the game and expand for single player) is mostly interested in laddering without needing to deal with the energy drain that this garbage creates.
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On January 08 2015 17:03 phodacbiet wrote:
On the bright side, now blizzard will FINALLY do something about this.
I'd like to believe you but this is Blizzard we are talking about. They don't do anything to counter hacking
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China6329 Posts
Both cases are under investigation from Netease and Blizzard at the moment.
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On January 08 2015 15:06 Shrinkzxo wrote:
Ztsman admitted to me that he used maphacker before, but claimed not this time.
[/QUOTE]
After these words i LOLed and stopped reading. Blizzard has absolutely no detection powers against maphack, so once caught maphackers have to be banned on a very long term, because next time they will learn how to hide better and will be very, very hard to catch them.
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On January 08 2015 17:13 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 17:03 phodacbiet wrote:
On the bright side, now blizzard will FINALLY do something about this. I'd like to believe you but this is Blizzard we are talking about. They don't do anything to counter hacking
True. I mean, it's not like this has happened in WCS before right? amiright??? /endsarcasm
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i can´t dl the replays from baidu.com. another filehost plz.
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On January 08 2015 17:13 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 17:03 phodacbiet wrote:
On the bright side, now blizzard will FINALLY do something about this. I'd like to believe you but this is Blizzard we are talking about. They don't do anything to counter hacking
Yeah I have to agree with this. Unless the community really gets behind a movement on anti-hack as a few NA players have been lobbying for then nothing will really change. It's honestly up to the consumer who drives their expansion rate of return prices that make Blizzard themselves make the investment for this kind of thing.
Lets not forget, if Blizzard didn't want to do this there is always the concept of leaving a 3rd party source to create anti-hack DETECTION (the key word here) for the players. It is up to BLIZZARD to allow these things to be run/used if they themselves do not want to do anything about it but the bottom line is there is so many hackers/discontent with ladder that right now many different levels and regions are being affected by rampant cheating. It's annoying for people who do not have a pro team/good place to practice or even just play the game for fun.
Honestly, some of my best memories of BW, believe it or not, was simply having a launcher to start the game knowing I was for the most part safe against any of this sort of thing as long as the plugin was detected running for the other person.
/plsblizzard ;~;
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As I understand, due to the p2p nature of sc2, it is essentially impossible to completely prevent maphackers in online tournaments. So at best, we can hope for blizzard to put in more effort into catching and banning hackers after they've hacked, but that is already very hard.
I guess you would need a live camera filming you and your screen as you play or something...
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On January 08 2015 17:57 -Kyo- wrote:
Honestly, some of my best memories of BW, believe it or not, was simply having a launcher to start the game knowing I was for the most part safe against any of this sort of thing as long as the plugin was detected running for the other person
That was really nice for the most part yes I agree, but it didn't take too long for people to hack even while running the launchers.
EDIT : I am not surprised by this at all, China is known for hackers. They should hire the Chinese to make a better Anti Hack probably.
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Wow...
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China6329 Posts
It's crazy that someone actually think about cheating in WCS if this is true.
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Tricky situation for blizzard I think. They must be reluctant to disqualify, and even ban, players without more proof than unnatural army movement and a history of hacking. It seems like they have to decide exactly how much proof they need before deciding to ban someone.
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This is not good... I think this could be one of the worst things to happen in the history of the WCS since WCS America Season 1 2013.
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This means that Blizzard has been unable to pass a technical inspection maphack.
What do they mean by 'technical inspection map hack?'. Just that nothing was flagged by warden?
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This game will turn out to be like warcarft 3 were hackers play hackers on ladder
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On January 08 2015 20:57 Rickyvalle21 wrote:
This game will turn out to be like warcarft 3 were hackers play hackers on ladder
Lol i remember hackers on War3 tourney. 90% ppl hack. You get drop off instantly. Thats why i hate blizzard games. They purposely let it die for people to switch to sc2. GL starcraft.
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On January 08 2015 21:43 covetousrat wrote:
Lol i remember hackers on War3 tourney. 90% ppl hack. You get drop off instantly. Thats why i hate blizzard games. They purposely let it die for people to switch to sc2. GL starcraft.
I'm one of the first in line for bashin' blizz, but I think this is a bit harsh. It must be hard to keep these games free from cheats, cheats take step A, anti cheat takes step B - the cheats take step C and so on.. The only way they could really lock things up would be to have dedicated servers hosting all the matches, which would take a shed load of hardware (I guess).
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China6329 Posts
On January 08 2015 21:53 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 21:43 covetousrat wrote:
Lol i remember hackers on War3 tourney. 90% ppl hack. You get drop off instantly. Thats why i hate blizzard games. They purposely let it die for people to switch to sc2. GL starcraft. I'm one of the first in line for bashin' blizz, but I think this is a bit harsh. It must be hard to keep these games free from cheats, cheats take step A, anti cheat takes step B - the cheats take step C and so on.. The only way they could really lock things up would be to have dedicated servers hosting all the matches, which would take a shed load of hardware (I guess).
SC2 does use full dedicated server support. And it doesn't prevent the cheating.
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On January 08 2015 22:09 digmouse wrote:
SC2 does use full dedicated server support. And it doesn't prevent the cheating.
I was under the impression that it was a client > client system, rather than client > server > client. Hence hacks were easy as the info needed about what the other player was up to was sent direct?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 08 2015 22:09 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 21:53 fruity. wrote:On January 08 2015 21:43 covetousrat wrote:
Lol i remember hackers on War3 tourney. 90% ppl hack. You get drop off instantly. Thats why i hate blizzard games. They purposely let it die for people to switch to sc2. GL starcraft. I'm one of the first in line for bashin' blizz, but I think this is a bit harsh. It must be hard to keep these games free from cheats, cheats take step A, anti cheat takes step B - the cheats take step C and so on.. The only way they could really lock things up would be to have dedicated servers hosting all the matches, which would take a shed load of hardware (I guess). SC2 does use full dedicated server support. And it doesn't prevent the cheating.
In fact it doesn't because it sends all the information to the client. That's IMO the solution of Scan lags(when you scan something it would require for your client to download everything at once).
I discovered this when I was playing WoL beta at Athlon 2500+, 1G RAM and 6600 GT, which was the lowest possible setting to play in 16bit :D Whenever my opponent build new building/or unlocked new units/ my game lagged a little. So lag for a rax, lag for a tech lab, then lag again and I knew he had factory, new lag and I knew tech lab is ready, new lag and bam, 1-1-1 was ready  Yup, official client supported this "cheat". But why I was supposed to lag JUST when his building was ready? Because server sent me information that his rax is ready. This is wrong. Once every client knows everything cheating programs are easier to write because all you need is to "turn off" the information barrier.
Edit> small typos and stuff
Also - it was a HW lag, drop in FPS, which I think was buffering of models for new units. Though you notice when it drops from 30(+-) to 4 fps for 1 second or so
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I think it's that time were we need something like iccup for Starcraft 2. Hacking has always been easy in Blizzard games, there is a large Blizzard hacking community. Both warcraft 3 and Brood war used 3rd party client to play competitive matches free from hackers due to the overwhelming hackers on B.net ladder.
Warcraft 3 had garena client, Brood war used Iccup.
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There's really something that blizzard could actually do? SC2 working as client > server > client could lag, would be great if don't but i think that would happen,how iccup deal with hackers (i'm not a bw person) and how blizzard can't do the same?
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This is why online qualifiers for lan events are basically always going to be suspect. We learned this in csgo recently. We also learned that lan cheating isnt even out of the question anymore. There needs to be a 3rd party anti-cheat client required that takes screenshots periodically and uploads them to a server among other things.
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I think it's that time were we need something like iccup for Starcraft 2. Hacking has always been easy in Blizzard games, there is a large Blizzard hacking community. Both warcraft 3 and Brood war used 3rd party client to play competitive matches free from hackers due to the overwhelming hackers on B.net ladder.
Warcraft 3 had garena client, Brood war used Iccup.
Unfortunately this is true....
I feel the only way to solve it is the "anti-hack" clients or special servers such as the ICCUP server.... the bw hacking days were some of the worst for non-hacking players and an extreme hay-day for the hackers...
EDIT: I feel like we should speak of these people as script kiddies atleast most of them because we know that most of them are just downloading the latest form of the module that the true hacker has made and implementing it....
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On January 08 2015 22:56 SpiritSTR wrote:
There's really something that blizzard could actually do? SC2 working as client > server > client could lag, would be great if don't but i think that would happen,how iccup deal with hackers (i'm not a bw person) and how blizzard can't do the same?
Map hacks come in 2 forms, External (does not inject into memory/exe and draws information into overlays) meaning warden can't detected it. (most common public map hack)
2nd one is internal map hack with protection that defeats Blizzards warden program making it undetectable. which gets updated whenever Warden gets updated.
There are ways to detect the external overlay map hacks, but it crosses into some dark waters as far as what is illegal and what is legal, there is only so much a company can do with their anti cheat programs. Certain laws in various countries including the USA have privacy laws, companies are not allowed to monitor your processes ECT.
As for the external map hacks, Blizzard can re do a lot of things on warden to make it harder, such as preventing it alerting the hackers whenever it updates it's scans. Blizzard has had a anti hack security position listed under their career options for years, not sure if they just lack in that department or they don't want to spend the money.
The way Blizzard has been combating hackers is by filing law suits against the creators, which only shut them down temporary. Not a good method IMO on preventing hacks.
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On January 08 2015 23:05 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 22:56 SpiritSTR wrote:
There's really something that blizzard could actually do? SC2 working as client > server > client could lag, would be great if don't but i think that would happen,how iccup deal with hackers (i'm not a bw person) and how blizzard can't do the same? Map hacks come in 2 forms, External (does not inject into memory/exe and draws information into overlays) meaning warden can't detected it. (most common public map hack) 2nd one is internal map hack with protection that defeats Blizzards warden program making it undetectable. which gets updated whenever Warden gets updated. There are ways to detect the external overlay map hacks, but it crosses into some dark waters as far as what is illegal and what is legal, there is only so much a company can do with their anti cheat programs. Certain laws in various countries including the USA have privacy laws, companies are not allowed to monitor your processes ECT. As for the external map hacks, Blizzard can re do a lot of things on warden to make it harder, such as preventing it alerting the hackers whenever it updates it's scans. Blizzard has had a anti hack security position listed under their career options for years, not sure if they just lack in that department or they don't want to spend the money. The way Blizzard has been combating hackers is by filing law suits against the creators, which only shut them down temporary. Not a good method IMO on preventing hacks.
You sir told eveyrthing it was on my mind the main problem is Blizzard vs Laws of certain countries vs. KappaHackers don't care at all about laws.. If Blizzard shoud do law steps vs every hacker creator... Courts would be busy for quite a few years from now 
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I don't know. I have high hopes for Blizzard to do something with LOTV since it'll be a standalone game. Hopefully it'll have the games run on a server instead of client-client. Even then though, I don't know how much that'll change.
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I think , right now , blizzard is starting to think more about the map hacking problem, they already said the they are starting to think in new ways to prevent that in some post on bnet forum and i think they know they only have legacy of the void to fix the mistakes.. at least is what i hope...
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People have said before that the cheat prevention in SC2 will never be as good as LoL's or Dota's, as in these games, with only 10 units being controled, it's easy to send information to the server instead of sending everything to the player's client.
Now with RTS, we have 100+ units being controled all the time, making it unviable to have all this information on the server.
Whatever the solution is, it's certainly not the way it is for mobas.
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'Blizzard doesn't care about hackers' has been a prevalent notion amongst so many people. I don't understand where they get this notion, when Blizzard has done many ban waves and sued the developers of some of these hacks.
There is only so much that Blizzard can do, but to the eyes of some people they don't do enough.
To those that think Blizzard doesn't care, do you understand how difficult it is to combat the hackers? Do you think its easy?
Don't get me wrong, I think Blizzard could do more, but there is absolutely no way to stop it entirely.
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why hasnt this been this big of an issue for NA EU qualifiers these past years?
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China6329 Posts
On January 09 2015 02:57 mikumegurine wrote:
why hasnt this been this big of an issue for NA EU qualifiers these past years?
I think it's a one in one million event that a suspected hacker actually beat a pro (iA), plus China qualifier is a really small one, compared to multiple nassive qualifiers NA/EU typically have, if went unchecked it can escalate very fast.
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What about those that got screwed by NA hackers?
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Changing SC2's engine to client-server would require a massive investment in entirely new netcode, and cause massive issues for players without solid connections (i.e. half the US and everyone on wireless networks). It's not going to happen.
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On January 09 2015 02:14 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
'Blizzard doesn't care about hackers' has been a prevalent notion amongst so many people. I don't understand where they get this notion, when Blizzard has done many ban waves and sued the developers of some of these hacks.
There is only so much that Blizzard can do, but to the eyes of some people they don't do enough.
To those that think Blizzard doesn't care, do you understand how difficult it is to combat the hackers? Do you think its easy?
Don't get me wrong, I think Blizzard could do more, but there is absolutely no way to stop it entirely.
Sorry, but I am getting you wrong. If you think they cannot prevent hackers for 2 whole seasons on NA from destroying the top 50 GM list and you therefore deduce that they definitely care I think your reasoning skills are getting mixed up somewhere. >.>~
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On January 09 2015 03:46 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 02:14 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
'Blizzard doesn't care about hackers' has been a prevalent notion amongst so many people. I don't understand where they get this notion, when Blizzard has done many ban waves and sued the developers of some of these hacks.
There is only so much that Blizzard can do, but to the eyes of some people they don't do enough.
To those that think Blizzard doesn't care, do you understand how difficult it is to combat the hackers? Do you think its easy?
Don't get me wrong, I think Blizzard could do more, but there is absolutely no way to stop it entirely. Sorry, but I am getting you wrong. If you think they cannot prevent hackers for 2 whole seasons on NA from destroying the top 50 GM list and you therefore deduce that they definitely care I think your reasoning skills are getting mixed up somewhere. >.>~
I am saying they do care; they are doing something about it; but I think they could also do more.
I am also saying its not easy what they have to do. They can't be super liberal with bans and lawsuits, because that can backfire very easily.
What I wouldn't mind is to have participants of WCS install an anti-cheat client when playing sanctioned matches like iccup.
To be honest, I don't care about the hackers on ladder. I care about hackers on WCS, so forcing WCS participants to install a program seems like a reasonable solution.
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I am part of the Chinese StarCraft II community and I am sorry to say that the environment in China for Starcraft II is very bad. Not only maphacking is involved, but a war between clans are raging in the forums. If anybody could read Chinese properly you know what I am talking about. This is more than a maphack.
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United States337 Posts
On January 09 2015 04:33 NeverNex wrote:
I am part of the Chinese StarCraft II community and I am sorry to say that the environment in China for Starcraft II is very bad. Not only maphacking is involved, but a war between clans are raging in the forums. If anybody could read Chinese properly you know what I am talking about. This is more than a maphack.
I'm really curious to hear more about this!
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China6329 Posts
On January 09 2015 04:33 NeverNex wrote:
I am part of the Chinese StarCraft II community and I am sorry to say that the environment in China for Starcraft II is very bad. Not only maphacking is involved, but a war between clans are raging in the forums. If anybody could read Chinese properly you know what I am talking about. This is more than a maphack.
But that's not to the point of damaging the health of a scene and potentially further damage the reputation of it.
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Some much broken english... I can't really tell what the bottom portion of the post is saying...
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On January 09 2015 06:57 PROconstantine wrote:
Some much broken english... I can't really tell what the bottom portion of the post is saying...
It is saying you can stream and maphack at the same time. The viewers won't be able to see that you are hacking so streaming your games don't prove that you are not maphacking.
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On January 08 2015 23:05 LingBlingBling wrote:
Blizzard has had a anti hack security position listed under their career options for years, not sure if they just lack in that department or they don't want to spend the money.
Kim Phan held an anti-cheat position previously at blizz.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimphan
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On January 09 2015 09:42 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2015 23:05 LingBlingBling wrote:
Blizzard has had a anti hack security position listed under their career options for years, not sure if they just lack in that department or they don't want to spend the money.
Kim Phan held an anti-cheat position previously at blizz. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimphan
A single guy against an entire community of hackers. :/ I see why he left...
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Kim Phan is a woman  She was promoted to Senior Manager of esports for blizz. I'm thinking you're confuzzling her with someone else
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On January 09 2015 02:14 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
'Blizzard doesn't care about hackers' has been a prevalent notion amongst so many people. I don't understand where they get this notion, when Blizzard has done many ban waves and sued the developers of some of these hacks.
There is only so much that Blizzard can do, but to the eyes of some people they don't do enough.
To those that think Blizzard doesn't care, do you understand how difficult it is to combat the hackers? Do you think its easy?
Don't get me wrong, I think Blizzard could do more, but there is absolutely no way to stop it entirely.
yep,
the R.O.I. just ain't there to support full force anti-cheat measures.
its sucks this is happening. However, Blizzard supports the RTS genre a million times better than any other company..
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On January 09 2015 02:14 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
'Blizzard doesn't care about hackers' has been a prevalent notion amongst so many people. I don't understand where they get this notion, when Blizzard has done many ban waves and sued the developers of some of these hacks.
There is only so much that Blizzard can do, but to the eyes of some people they don't do enough.
To those that think Blizzard doesn't care, do you understand how difficult it is to combat the hackers? Do you think its easy?
Don't get me wrong, I think Blizzard could do more, but there is absolutely no way to stop it entirely.
We get the Blizzard does nothing notion from Brood War and Warcraft 3 where they did nothing!
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On January 11 2015 05:00 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 02:14 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
'Blizzard doesn't care about hackers' has been a prevalent notion amongst so many people. I don't understand where they get this notion, when Blizzard has done many ban waves and sued the developers of some of these hacks.
There is only so much that Blizzard can do, but to the eyes of some people they don't do enough.
To those that think Blizzard doesn't care, do you understand how difficult it is to combat the hackers? Do you think its easy?
Don't get me wrong, I think Blizzard could do more, but there is absolutely no way to stop it entirely. We get the Blizzard does nothing notion from Brood War and Warcraft 3 where they did nothing!
As someone who lived through those days(SCBW, WC3, D2, WoW) I can truthfully say they did do *SOMETHING* as in wait for many months to a year gathering CD Serials and then banning them......was it enough? Nope, but it did get them more money because the people would have to go buy another serial to keep playing...or just steal someone's key.
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United States10654 Posts
On January 09 2015 14:36 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 09:42 fruity. wrote:On January 08 2015 23:05 LingBlingBling wrote:
Blizzard has had a anti hack security position listed under their career options for years, not sure if they just lack in that department or they don't want to spend the money.
Kim Phan held an anti-cheat position previously at blizz. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimphan A single guy against an entire community of hackers. :/ I see why he left...
So you replied to a post that had one line and a link without clicking the link?
Congrats on posting your uneducated opinion.
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update: SCgoodman and keke are dq'd and banned from blizz-sanctioned tournaments until June 30th for using "illegal plug-ins." A pretty light punishment.
http://sc2.163.com/articles/1001/72744
WCS China was delayed for 2 days and resumed. I think Stage 2 (top 16 to 6 qualifying spots) will be casted tomorrow January 11th and Monday January 3:00am PST/6:00am EST/12:00pm CET.
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Its good to hear justice has been delivered.
I disagree it was a light punishment, because this effectively puts them out of any chances for blizzcon, which is ultimately the goal for WCS and WCS sanctioned tournaments. Unless they manage to get into WCS season (insert season # after June 30th) and all other WCS sanctioned tournaments.
Its such a sad state of affairs in China when hacks become prevalent. I really think Blizzard should be a little bit more diligent during WCS and WCS sanctioned tourneys.
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On January 11 2015 05:16 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 14:36 Cascade wrote:On January 09 2015 09:42 fruity. wrote:On January 08 2015 23:05 LingBlingBling wrote:
Blizzard has had a anti hack security position listed under their career options for years, not sure if they just lack in that department or they don't want to spend the money.
Kim Phan held an anti-cheat position previously at blizz. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimphan A single guy against an entire community of hackers. :/ I see why he left... So you replied to a post that had one line and a link without clicking the link? Congrats on posting your uneducated opinion.
Thanks for your constructive post that improves this thread... What I meant is that a single person shouldn't be expected to beat a community of hackers. Although of course one is better than zero. And no I didn't read the link, and yes I managed to get two facts wrong in a line, and yes that was a bit funny, but no that doesn't change the point I was trying to make.
What would you have done if you were the single anti-hack employee on blizzard?
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What would you have done if you were the single anti-hack employee on blizzard?
Where did it state that Kim was the only anti-hack employee? How do you know there wasn't a huge team of them, any evidence to support the single anti-hack employee theory that I missed on linkedin?
I'd imagine if Kim was 'Senior' Manager of a department that looked in part at anti-cheating, that there'd be a team who she managed underneath her, performing the day to day legwork of investigating and implementing anti-cheat systems?
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On January 09 2015 04:33 NeverNex wrote:
Not only maphacking is involved, but a war between clans are raging in the forums.
I realize this is probably less cool and more sad in reality but fuck man a WAR? BETWEEN CLANS?
This shit sounds way more exciting than our boring SC2 drama. I just want to have some blood in the streets of TL City, not this passive aggressive / circlejerk crap :<
;~: i hope the chinese scene comes out of this
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On January 19 2015 16:18 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 04:33 NeverNex wrote:
Not only maphacking is involved, but a war between clans are raging in the forums. I realize this is probably less cool and more sad in reality but fuck man a WAR? BETWEEN CLANS? This shit sounds way more exciting than our boring SC2 drama. I just want to have some blood in the streets of TL City, not this passive aggressive / circlejerk crap :< ;~: i hope the chinese scene comes out of this
There are wars, from time to time.
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EPT
