|
On December 17 2014 18:05 Blargh wrote:Okay guys!! Using all of my e-sports passion, and time-wasting skills (I'm staying up for SSL!!), I have created a Google form which would allow us to input our rankings. This way, we can also look at the "average" rankings (idea from ZigguratOfUr!) Link to ranking formLink to ranking "averages"If everyone uses it, then my time wouldn't have been wasted, too! I think it'd be pretty cool if OP updated with the links, and even cooler if he maintained the statistics on it. Now people don't need to read each response to get an idea of what people think. Obviously, it's still fun to read The_Templar's choices though, just his are so horrible.
Nice! I was just typing things into a spreadsheet. This saves me the trouble of doing so  .
|
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think.
|
On December 18 2014 02:53 SackOfWetMice wrote:
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think.
Their core 4 players literally won them SPL
|
On December 18 2014 02:56 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 02:53 SackOfWetMice wrote:
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think. Their core 4 players literally won them SPL
Absolutely.
2014 SPL is a totally different beast than 2015, though. Gone are the days of SKT never fielding a Terran. Gone are the days of Zest riding his perfect PvP to success. He can't win a PvZ recently, and has always been terrible at PvT. And I think that Stats, TY, and Flash are all slightly overrated. I think KT will be a solid, mid-tier team in 2015 SPL.
|
On December 18 2014 03:00 SackOfWetMice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 02:56 OtherWorld wrote:On December 18 2014 02:53 SackOfWetMice wrote:
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think. Their core 4 players literally won them SPL Absolutely. 2014 SPL is a totally different beast than 2015, though. Gone are the days of SKT never fielding a Terran. Gone are the days of Zest riding his perfect PvP to success. He can't win a PvZ recently, and has always been terrible at PvT. And I think that Stats, TY, and Flash are all slightly overrated. I think KT will be a solid, mid-tier team in 2015 SPL.
If anything, TY is criminally underrated. I'm looking at his TvT (looking like an important MU this year) on aligulac, and since July he probably has the best TvT results on the planet.
He's got one-sided stomps of Hack, Cure, Sorry, sKyHigh, Bbyong, Ryung, and a whopping 5-2 record against Maru. He beat aLive 2-1 and his only losing record is against INno with 1-2. He's got a record of 77% against South Korean Terrans, INno has 68%, Taeja has 63%, Maru has 55%.
Flash has 72%. So... yeah. I fully expect Flash and TY to pick up most of Zest's slack this year.
|
On December 18 2014 03:00 SackOfWetMice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 02:56 OtherWorld wrote:On December 18 2014 02:53 SackOfWetMice wrote:
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think. Their core 4 players literally won them SPL Absolutely. 2014 SPL is a totally different beast than 2015, though. Gone are the days of SKT never fielding a Terran. Gone are the days of Zest riding his perfect PvP to success. He can't win a PvZ recently, and has always been terrible at PvT. And I think that Stats, TY, and Flash are all slightly overrated. I think KT will be a solid, mid-tier team in 2015 SPL.
How are Stats and TY overrated? if anything those two are extremely underrated imo.
Zest will soon bounce back, these two qualifiers were flukes imo.
Flash was a beast in spl, is a beast in spl and will always be a beast in spl, there is NO WAY KT will be mid tier, wtf man^^
The only thing that worries me a bit is the total lack of a solid zerg, but zerg isn't the strongest race right now anyway, so i don't think that will be the biggest problem (obviously this can change with new maps though)
|
On December 18 2014 03:00 SackOfWetMice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 02:56 OtherWorld wrote:On December 18 2014 02:53 SackOfWetMice wrote:
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think. Their core 4 players literally won them SPL Absolutely. 2014 SPL is a totally different beast than 2015, though. Gone are the days of SKT never fielding a Terran. Gone are the days of Zest riding his perfect PvP to success. He can't win a PvZ recently, and has always been terrible at PvT. And I think that Stats, TY, and Flash are all slightly overrated. I think KT will be a solid, mid-tier team in 2015 SPL.
I really don't know why you seem to think Zest is a bad player who somehow won three premier tournaments in a year. Stats and TY are not overrated, they do the job in PL (and are unpredictable, very important for PL) even if their individual league results are not here. Flash is probably wildly overrated when playing in indiv leagues, but in PL you can't say that (look at PL 2014 stats : Flash is the fourth best player and second Terran after Maru, in a year that was characterized by Terran imbalance for the first few months).
I mean sure you can definitely rate KT under JAGW and maybe SKT, but apart from that... Saying it is a "mid-tier" team doesn't feel right.
|
On December 17 2014 18:05 Blargh wrote:Okay guys!! Using all of my e-sports passion, and time-wasting skills (I'm staying up for SSL!!), I have created a Google form which would allow us to input our rankings. This way, we can also look at the "average" rankings (idea from ZigguratOfUr!) Link to ranking formLink to ranking "averages"If everyone uses it, then my time wouldn't have been wasted, too! I think it'd be pretty cool if OP updated with the links, and even cooler if he maintained the statistics on it. Now people don't need to read each response to get an idea of what people think. Obviously, it's still fun to read The_Templar's choices though, just his are so horrible.
Done and done. Those links are getting edited in right now. But I would still encourage people to write up their lists with rationales as to why they choose what they choose and have some discussion on the subject. For instance, I would agree that Flash is criminally overrated in individual leagues, but he still stomps in Proleague.
|
On December 18 2014 03:50 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 03:00 SackOfWetMice wrote:On December 18 2014 02:56 OtherWorld wrote:On December 18 2014 02:53 SackOfWetMice wrote:
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think. Their core 4 players literally won them SPL Absolutely. 2014 SPL is a totally different beast than 2015, though. Gone are the days of SKT never fielding a Terran. Gone are the days of Zest riding his perfect PvP to success. He can't win a PvZ recently, and has always been terrible at PvT. And I think that Stats, TY, and Flash are all slightly overrated. I think KT will be a solid, mid-tier team in 2015 SPL. I really don't know why you seem to think Zest is a bad player who somehow won three premier tournaments in a year. Stats and TY are not overrated, they do the job in PL (and are unpredictable, very important for PL) even if their individual league results are not here. Flash is probably wildly overrated when playing in indiv leagues, but in PL you can't say that (look at PL 2014 stats : Flash is the fourth best player and second Terran after Maru, in a year that was characterized by Terran imbalance for the first few months). I mean sure you can definitely rate KT under JAGW and maybe SKT, but apart from that... Saying it is a "mid-tier" team doesn't feel right.
Zest is far from bad, but it is not a coincidence that he had such fantastic results during a year when 1) Protoss was dominant and 2) Terran was far from dominant.
Just don't field him against any Terrans - not hard to do with Flash, TY, and Stats on the team - and KT is arguably stronger than last year.
|
On December 18 2014 03:00 SackOfWetMice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 02:56 OtherWorld wrote:On December 18 2014 02:53 SackOfWetMice wrote:
People are seriously overrating KT...
I guess we'll see soon enough if I'm wrong. I just don't think their core 4 players are as strong as all the KT fanboys seem to think. Their core 4 players literally won them SPL Absolutely. 2014 SPL is a totally different beast than 2015, though. Gone are the days of SKT never fielding a Terran. Gone are the days of Zest riding his perfect PvP to success. He can't win a PvZ recently, and has always been terrible at PvT. And I think that Stats, TY, and Flash are all slightly overrated. I think KT will be a solid, mid-tier team in 2015 SPL.
There was also the 2012-2013 SPL where they were doing even worse. Flash was literally their only player posting individual league results and even that was mediocre. As far as I can remember they had nobody else but Flash in the the gsl for several months. Yet, they still managed to get 3rd.
Coming into 2014, I'd of ranked them as one of the bottom teams on paper but they went ahead and proved me wrong by winning the thing. So I think KT has earned at a minimum a top 3 ranking. Individual league != Team league.
|
1) KT
2) Jinair
3) SKT
4) CJ
5) Samsung
6) MVP
7) Startale-FlashWolves
8) Prime
|
|
|
1) Startale-FlashWolves
2) MVP
3) Prime
4) other
|
1. KT
2. JinAir
3. SKT
4. CJ
5. MVP
6. Samsung
7. ST-Yoe
8. Prime
Anything but KT in first place is a travesty. They have the same players that won the last season (barring a B-team switch-up that doesn't matter), but now also have Coach Ryu Won. SKT is weaker, JinAir is about the same, and the rest are not contenders.
Weak performances or not in solo player leagues, KT was always a Proleague-first team. They look stronger than last season and will win this time too.
|
I've watched every Proleague and GSL game for the past year and a half. I just don't buy the individual leagues != team leagues argument. It doesn't make logical sense. It seems like that argument is simply what early religion was to early human cultures - an attempt to make sense out of things that are unexplainable. The only possible logical explanation is if KT players are just allowed less time to practice for individual leagues and more for Proleague.
Also, it felt to me like other teams (SKT and JAGW in particular) lost SPL 2014 more than KT won it. I think people will be much more prepared for KT this time around, with specific snipers on each team for the 4 core KT players. Not to mention the fact that you essentially don't have to prepare for vZ against them, that just makes it easier.
I think Zest, Flash, Stats, and TY all had breakout years in 2014. Each saw some of if not all of their best individual league success ever in SC2. I expect at least 2 of them to drop off slightly if not significantly (Zest has already been doing so for the past ~5 months). I'm wary of both Zest and Stats having their "breakout year" during the undisputed year of Protoss. If they can maintain their 2014 level of play throughout all of 2015, then I'd definitely rank them (KT) in the top 3. I just don't expect them to. SC2 is a very volatile game. So I guess "overrated" is not exactly the word I was looking for; rather, I'd say I have tempered expectations for KT's core 4 players in 2015 (in both SPL and individual leagues).
|
To add on to my last post, part of my attitude towards Zest and Stats comes from learning to temper my expectations for players in SC2 that have a "breakout year." And who's to say that Terminator or Yonghwa won't be the next Zest? Or that SalvatioN won't be the next Maru? You never know with KeSPA players; all of them have the potential to break out and become dominant for a while.
|
It's pretty interesting to see KT and SKT go back and forth between 2nd and 3rd place average ranks. In my opinion, they have two different types of teams this season (unlike last season). KT Rolster is pretty much a set 4 players with very little possibility of variation. SKT on the other hand has Innovation, with a few very solid others (Classic, Dark, soO, Dream). If you were to head-to-head compare players, KT Rolster would be the definite favorite, but SKT has the option to use more players, whom can prepare individual sniping builds.
While I consider SKT to be a bit worse than KT this season (hence me putting them as 3rd, and KT as 2nd), it'll be really interesting to see how things pan out. Jin Air still the clear favorite for first though (as most people seem to agree)
|
1. KT - I think their top 4 lineup is the best in proleague (Flash, Zest, TY, Stats). Those four are probably a bit more consistent than Jin Air's lineup. Their weakness is a drop off in talent past the top four.
2. Jin Air - Just a stacked roster -s0s, Maru, Rogue, etc. Will probably challenge KT for the championship. Probably the most amount of talented players in a lineup top to bottom.
3. SKT - Only slightly ahead of Cj's roster, T1 holds onto soO and Classic and crucially adds Innovation after losing Parting and Soulkey. The rest of their lineup has decently solid players like Sora who can contribute.
4. CJ - A solid lineup with players like herO and Bbyong. Their lineup past those top 2 is decent, but falls off a bit and will hurt them against top teams like Kt and Jin Air.
5. MVP - Without Taeja, Gumiho, and HerO I think this team is fighting for the bottom spot. With them, however, I think they could suprise and be a top team. We shall see if they perform though.
6. Startale - Similar to MVP, Startale got a huge boost by non-team participating members.
7. Samsung Khan - The bottom two teams fall off quite a bit after Startale. Samsung has a modest lineup which lacks top end talent and depth.
8. Prime-Easily the weakest team in the league, they should be bottom feeders throughout the year
|
On December 18 2014 08:19 Blargh wrote:
It's pretty interesting to see KT and SKT go back and forth between 2nd and 3rd place average ranks. In my opinion, they have two different types of teams this season (unlike last season). KT Rolster is pretty much a set 4 players with very little possibility of variation. SKT on the other hand has Innovation, with a few very solid others (Classic, Dark, soO, Dream). [v]If you were to head-to-head compare players, KT Rolster would be the definite favorite[/v], but SKT has the option to use more players, whom can prepare individual sniping builds.
In what universe is KT's lineup better head-to-head?
Innovation is just hands down flat out better than Flash, I think soO is likely to have a better 2015 than Zest, and Dark has posted significantly better individual league results than TY but remains untested in PL, so that's harder to call. Classic and Stats were neck-and-neck this year, but I'll have to give Stats the edge for 2015 because Classic's best MU is vZ and Stats's is vT. 'nuff said.
KT has a lot of vT talent which is going to help them rack up points against other teams if Terrans continue to do well. But head to head? Definite favorite? I don't see it.
|
On December 18 2014 09:26 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 08:19 Blargh wrote:
It's pretty interesting to see KT and SKT go back and forth between 2nd and 3rd place average ranks. In my opinion, they have two different types of teams this season (unlike last season). KT Rolster is pretty much a set 4 players with very little possibility of variation. SKT on the other hand has Innovation, with a few very solid others (Classic, Dark, soO, Dream). [v]If you were to head-to-head compare players, KT Rolster would be the definite favorite[/v], but SKT has the option to use more players, whom can prepare individual sniping builds. In what universe is KT's lineup better head-to-head? Innovation is just hands down flat out better than Flash, I think soO is likely to have a better 2015 than Zest, and Dark has posted significantly better individual league results than TY but remains untested in PL, so that's harder to call. Classic and Stats were neck-and-neck this year, but I'll have to give Stats the edge for 2015 because Classic's best MU is vZ and Stats's is vT. 'nuff said. KT has a lot of vT talent which is going to help them rack up points against other teams if Terrans continue to do well. But head to head? Definite favorite? I don't see it.
I dunno man, I see KT as being a fair bit stronger. While recent results (qualifiers from SSL/GSL) may show SKT as the stronger team, I think that's way too limited to get a good idea of how well they will do. In addition, the less those players have to play in individual leagues, the more time they have for Proleague.
While Innovation is (imo) one of the absolute best PL players this next season, and will no doubt be the main ace player, I think Flash, Zest, and TY are better players than Classic, Dark, and soO (judging by his current trend). If SKT can go 2-2 with KT Rolster, I think they are likely to get the victory with an Innovation ace match, but I definitely think it'll be a bit tough to get those two wins.
Of course, there isn't a huge difference between the two teams, and I had a fairly hard time ranking the two, so I could see it going either way in PL, but if you asked me if Zest, TY, Flash, and Stats were overall better than Innovation, soO, Classic, and Dark, I would say definitely.
NOW, if SKT had held onto Rain, Parting, and Soulkey..... It'd be a COMPLETELY different story. It would probably be one of the most dominant teams in SC history. Humorously, SKT was one of the stronger teams on paper last season, and ultimately lost to KT Rolster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
