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On November 22 2014 07:27 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:25 nkr wrote:On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote:
If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality. It's basicly ban the player or give up your tournament, because no sponsor in sweden is going to go anywhere near fragbite again if they don't. This is one of the most touchy subjects in swedish society, and if you do anything that isn't as extreme as this, the sponsors and the organizer will be crucified. I'm sure in a perfect world, fragbite would sacrifice their whole brand to make sure the word rape is used equally for both sexes, but this is far from a perfect world. There are numerous discussions on this term on blogs and stuff on Aftonbladet Esport and how it is a terrible word that we should avoid. And the Starcraft community itself here on TL brings it up every so often. But I'm glad you guys are concerned about the useage of the word! I'm looking forward to seeing more people call out usages of the term wherever it used, whether towards men or women!
I didn't voice my opinion on the word, I'm just saying fragbite had no choice.
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That's absolutely idiotic logic.
Just because statistically the trend is for one group against another group doesn't make it acceptable when said in reverse. With that logic I (a white male) could say, "About to bomb these buildings. lol", but a Muslim couldn't?
Pretty fucking stupid.
Like it or not, that's pretty much the current situation.
I didn't say it was acceptable, I said that chastisement should be less harsh. Which, in the situation you describe, is exactly what tends to happen. Fratboy makes a bomb joke and gets a talking to, Abdullah makes a bomb joke and says goodbye to privacy for the rest of his life, if he avoids prison. The reason for this is, like it or not, the former's comment is going to make a lot less people stressed out and scared than the latter's. That sucks, because Abdullah is probably a cool guy with a dark sense of humor and not a fanatic.
So too in rape culture. Sexual violence surrounds women, every girl I know has stories, is scared to walk around alone after dark etc. It's a meaningful stress on their lives and makes day by day existence noticeably harder. So when guys make light of it (actually, when ANYONE makes light of sexual violence towards women), it hits harder and causes more stress. This is why the response is necessarily harsher. Not because of the actual damage of the act being carried through, which is almost gender neutral in its effect, but because of the incidental stress and hurt it causes to a particular vulnerable group.
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United States23455 Posts
On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote:If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit. if women want equality then give them equality. Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote:
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling. yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard
Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal
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On November 22 2014 07:26 Darkhorse wrote:
Guys just don't use the word rape when talking about a video game. It'll keep you out of situations like this. I don't think Kas meant what he said, but I agree with him being DQ'd under the circumstance.
Bleh I just wish we didn't have this whole section of gamers that thinks the word "rape" is cool to throw around whenever
Follow up:
Yeah, I think this is the saddest thing about this whole drama.
That there are people who actually think using rape in any context is cool/ok...
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On November 22 2014 07:27 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:27 Heartland wrote:On November 22 2014 07:25 nkr wrote:On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote:
If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit.
if women want equality then give them equality. It's basicly ban the player or give up your tournament, because no sponsor in sweden is going to go anywhere near fragbite again if they don't. This is one of the most touchy subjects in swedish society, and if you do anything that isn't as extreme as this, the sponsors and the organizer will be crucified. I'm sure in a perfect world, fragbite would sacrifice their whole brand to make sure the word rape is used equally for both sexes, but this is far from a perfect world. There are numerous discussions on this term on blogs and stuff on Aftonbladet Esport and how it is a terrible word that we should avoid. And the Starcraft community itself here on TL brings it up every so often. But I'm glad you guys are concerned about the useage of the word! I'm looking forward to seeing more people call out usages of the term wherever it used, whether towards men or women! I didn't voice my opinion on the word, I'm just saying fragbite had no choice.
True, business-wise it was the correct choice.
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On November 22 2014 07:28 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote:If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit. if women want equality then give them equality. On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote:
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling. yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal
ok well the historical context thing is your opinion
my opinion is that just because women have been raped more in history isn't going to change the hurtful effect it could have on a man who was raped or has a negative association with rape
nor do I honestly even care, personally - because while I live my life in a way that I try to treat others well, I think the levels of political correctness and 'don't offend this group' 'don't offend that group' that society has gone to is just stupid. people love to be offended. a world full of victims rather than a world full of critical thinkers.
edit for clarity:
I am not against an organization being "anti hurtful words" or however you want to describe this. however, I would rather them allow hurtful words than only disallow them for specific groups.
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Looking at group C, things went as expected anyway. Poor Kas, but probably learned a valuable lesson to be more fake in public.
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On November 22 2014 07:02 Zanzabarr wrote:
Well, Maddelisk has to get wins somehow. In all seriousness though, she would have been "raped" in the series. Men can rape other men. If kas said this about a male opponent, nothing would have come of it.
No, she would have suffered a heavy defeat, stood no chance whatsoever, lost heavily, been completely outmatched, not on the same level etc. There are a lot more appropriate ways to say the above; the verb to rape is used way too liberally in the gaming community.
And frankly, anyone who thinks it is even remotely ok to post things like "I am going to rape a girl tonight" in a public space while referring to someone specific is either socially challenged or an idiot, or both. There is a limit to trash talk.
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On November 22 2014 07:31 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:28 Darkhorse wrote:On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote:If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit. if women want equality then give them equality. On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote:
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling. yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal ok well the historical context thing is your opinion my opinion is that just because women have been raped more in history isn't going to change the hurtful effect it could have on a man who was raped or has a negative association with rape nor do I honestly even care, personally - because while I live my life in a way that I try to treat others well, I think the levels of political correctness and 'don't offend this group' 'don't offend that group' that society has gone to is just stupid. people love to be offended. a world full of victims rather than a world full of critical thinkers.
You're probably just another reactionary PUA guy, but anyway: using the term rape isn't fine whether we're targeting men or women. I think it should be condemned. Will you also aid in doing that in this forum?
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That sort of what I was talking about. Could have been even better, but It is still great to see that Maddelisk does not use this to paint herself as a victim, and instead tries to solve the issue.
Respect +10.
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On November 22 2014 07:34 iloveav wrote:That sort of what I was talking about. Could have been even better, but It is still great to see that Maddelisk does not use this to paint herself as a victim, and instead tries to solve the issue. Respect +10.
Just acting like a rational person.
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On November 22 2014 07:33 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:31 travis wrote:On November 22 2014 07:28 Darkhorse wrote:On November 22 2014 07:21 travis wrote:If they wouldn't have banned him if he had directed it at a male player, for example "im about to rape this dude", then this is a double standard and his disqualification is a load of shit. if women want equality then give them equality. On November 22 2014 07:00 iloveav wrote:
I wonder if Maddelisk would write that sort of tweet refering to a male gamer if she would get disqualified...
Not saying its wrong or right to write something like that, but there is a double standart in male-female interactions that sometimes becomes very unsetteling. yep. i am hoping the rules state that this kind of language isn't allowed in general, rather than this just being a blatant double standard Read the post below on how historical context is important to the use of certain language. Of course I think using the word "rape" referring to anyone should be punishable but I can also see how this is a bit of a bigger deal ok well the historical context thing is your opinion my opinion is that just because women have been raped more in history isn't going to change the hurtful effect it could have on a man who was raped or has a negative association with rape nor do I honestly even care, personally - because while I live my life in a way that I try to treat others well, I think the levels of political correctness and 'don't offend this group' 'don't offend that group' that society has gone to is just stupid. people love to be offended. a world full of victims rather than a world full of critical thinkers. You're probably just another reactionary PUA guy, but anyway: using the term rape isn't fine whether we're targeting men or women. I think it should be condemned. Will you also aid in doing that in this forum?
PUA? pickup artist? that seems like a weird thing to say. I am engaged so no 
but anyways yeah, I try not to say hurtful things! but if someone says a hurtful thing to me I think about it's validity and if there is no validity I don't get offended because there is no reason to. if there is a validity then I try to accept the criticism. I think that is ideal. hard to do but ideal.
I think offending people is bad if you can help it, and so is getting offended. Kas made a mistake.
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On November 22 2014 07:28 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +That's absolutely idiotic logic.
Just because statistically the trend is for one group against another group doesn't make it acceptable when said in reverse. With that logic I (a white male) could say, "About to bomb these buildings. lol", but a Muslim couldn't?
Pretty fucking stupid. Like it or not, that's pretty much the current situation. I didn't say it was acceptable, I said that chastisement should be less harsh. Which, in the situation you describe, is exactly what tends to happen. Fratboy makes a bomb joke and gets a talking to, Abdullah makes a bomb joke and says goodbye to privacy for the rest of his life, if he avoids prison. The reason for this is, like it or not, the former's comment is going to make a lot less people stressed out and scared than the latter's. That sucks, because Abdullah is probably a cool guy with a dark sense of humor and not a fanatic. So too in rape culture. Sexual violence surrounds women, every girl I know has stories, is scared to walk around alone after dark etc. It's a meaningful stress on their lives and makes day by day existence noticeably harder. So when guys make light of it (actually, when ANYONE makes light of sexual violence towards women), it hits harder and causes more stress. This is why the response is necessarily harsher. Not because of the actual damage of the act being carried through, which is almost gender neutral in its effect, but because of the incidental stress and hurt it causes because of the prevalence of the behavior towards a particular group who are consequently impacted more by people treating it like it's not a big deal.
Good points but lets be real here. We are talking about bullshit being written on the internet using language that has other implications in gaming. Imagine how scary it would be if we took everything literally that we read online. Holy fuck I would never leave my house... who am I kidding I don't anyway.
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On November 22 2014 07:26 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:23 Paljas wrote:On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse. But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person. Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important. rape is not exclusive to women, and it's a stupid comparison anyways because this isn't even the context in which rape was being used.
saying that you will rape someone is obviously always inacceptable. but its especially problematic when you make this statement directly to a woman, who are way more often victim of rape and sexual harassment. for a lot of them, the "joke" might be reality.
i dont quite understand what you mean with your second sentecne. you cant just use a word and act like it has no connection to it's acutal use in our society.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
We all post stupid things regardless of age. Nothing controversial though. This is their view and it must be respected.
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Stupid tweet, but not sure how I feel about in-game punishment for something done out of it
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right move. gj fragbite. it's something entirely different to say something like that to a guy you know and wanna get on his nerves or just bust his balls a bit (jesus, see?! :D), because let's face it. we are caveman in this regard.
but to an actual smart girl who is fully commited to esports and does a lot of publicity and good for it that's just not acceptable.
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On November 22 2014 06:58 duckk wrote:
I have practiced with kas since wc3 2008, and he is without a doubt one of the most mannered and respectful players I know. Most likely came off differently than how he intended :/
usually people don't even think of what the word actually means anymore. I mean Original Dota got pretty nasty with how they explained things that happened in the woods.
So some are to innocent to even realize what they actually wrote and some white knights are usually the more perverted ones that instantly think about the bad evil version.
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On November 22 2014 07:38 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 07:26 travis wrote:On November 22 2014 07:23 Paljas wrote:On November 22 2014 07:11 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
So what Kas said was obviously wrong, but I kind of don't like how because he said it to a girl, it makes it suddenly much much worse. But thats how it is. Saying "Nigger" to a black person is much worse than saying it to a white person, and saying that you will "gas someone" is much worse if you say it to a jewish person. Public statements dont just exist in a vacuum, historical and social context is always important. rape is not exclusive to women, and it's a stupid comparison anyways because this isn't even the context in which rape was being used. saying that you will rape someone is obviously always inacceptable. but its especially problematic when you make this statement directly to a woman, who are way more often victim of rape and sexual harassment. for a lot of them, the "joke" might be reality. i dont quite understand what you mean with your second sentecne. you cant just use a word and act like it has no connection to it's acutal use in our society.
what I mean is that when you use the word "nigger" to a person there is only one meaning.
when you say you are going to "rape" someone, in the context of the game, everyone knows you don't mean that you are going to forcibly have your way with them.
so it's not really a good example, because those 2 situations are not the same.
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