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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 10 2014 07:25 Plexa wrote: Indeed, tweets suggest there is another new unit for Protoss in the works that was not at Blizzcon. (Pls Dark Archon) 2nd this, dark archon hypuuuu | ||
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TelecoM
United States10689 Posts
It wouldn't really matter if Protoss got a Dark Archon, Reaver, Dragoon, or Corsair, you would probably find some way to make a balance complaint before the beta starts. ^_^ | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
Siege tank + medivac should be awesome to watch. I don't think every aspect of all races needs to translate linearly from bw to sc2. toss definitely needs something though and I think blizz knows that but I really hope they consider removing colossus and re-working it a bit. The warp gate change is a step in the right direction, for now it's a nerf but once everything balances out I bet it'll make for better game play | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On November 10 2014 07:19 Plexa wrote: Would rather have reaver than disruptor. Although if the tank change remains I might just play Terran because medivac+tank plays very similarly to the reaver+prism. Good question. Functionally, it allows Blizzard to retune the Colossus to fulfill a more specific niche rather than multi-purpose destroy everything unit. Reavers in BW weren't ever something that you could mass to ridiculous numbers except in certain circumstances -- slow fire rate and the slow speed of scarabs meant that too many reavers would fire on the same target and a lot of the extra shots would be wasted. While the Colossus over AoE over time, the Reaver offers large bursts of AoE akin to the disruptor at the moment. However the Reaver also fulfils a siege role and is useful vs ultralisks when defended properly. Disruptors at this point in the game are either effectively mines (detonate and die) or win-more units, I feel the Reaver offers more rich gameplay for those reasons. true, but that doesnt imply that the rvr isn't a crucial unit for big fights in broodwar. If you play PvP, often times 2 reavers and a shuttle are a crucial part of your midgame army composition, giving you an edge versus the pure dragoon army. Of course, this is seldom still done in the lategame where storms are easier to utilize. Then again, any good lategame PvZ army usually includes 2 reavers and a speed shuttle in order to fend of the ultraling composition of Zerg. Archons and HT, Zeals as meatshield offer the same concept basically, but the reavers add a lot to it. Further, in the lategame base defense via reavers becomes crucial once crackling swarm comes into play. To summarize: no you don't mass reavers, but of course they are very important to the army composition in various scenarios. Including the reaver in Lotv would be difficult, the main reason it isnt OP in Broodwar is because it's AI is so bugged, so it's effetciveness would need to be smaller in relation, given Blizz won't screw the reaver AI on purpose ^^ | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On November 10 2014 08:28 Zealously wrote: I think the idea is that the reaver is entertaining to watch rather than just that it was in BW. The thing with all these units is that if they were fun to watch in BW then implementing them might be an attractive option. Brood War itself doesn't have much to do with it, it's just that it's the point of reference given the enormous similarities between the two games. The Reaver was popular because of its RNG though, same reason why people love Hearthstone. Creates excitement because the player can't control the hit and miss. They can use it in the right moment though, to create an awesome play. I would say the Widowmine was pretty much a test if they want to bring RNG into Sc2. And the theme of LotV seems to be Voidzones and giving a race its Colossus back >.< . | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 10 2014 09:15 hitpoint wrote: Wow, why is anyone voting no on this? The reaver was an amazing unit. Because protoss really doesn't need another destroy everything on the ground unit. Unless they remove colossi then I would support it. If they decided to add it along with colossi/templar, yeah screw that. | ||
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
On November 10 2014 09:35 Masada714 wrote: While I understand most peoples concern with the Colossus, if it was removed then what happens to the units made specifically to counter it i.e.(Viking, Corruptor)? Hopefully they'd be changed to become more interesting dynamic units. Corrupters still have a purpose anyway like in pheonix vs muta/corrupter and vikings are used to deal with bl's and toss air which could change in lotv with the new tempest and carrier buffs | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On November 10 2014 09:15 hitpoint wrote: Wow, why is anyone voting no on this? The reaver was an amazing unit. I voted no because protoss doesn't need another powerful splash option. Colossus+storm+disruptor+reaver is overkill. Everything on the ground will die instantly. If colossus or disruptor were removed to put in the reaver, then yes. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On November 10 2014 09:15 hitpoint wrote: Wow, why is anyone voting no on this? The reaver was an amazing unit. every non-BW player and balance complainer votes no I guess. | ||
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L3monsta
New Zealand149 Posts
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Gary Oak
Canada2381 Posts
On November 10 2014 07:41 Musicus wrote: Christ, this exchange makes me feel old; I'm used to everyone knowing about the BW stuff due to when it came out. I was 9 when SC came out, and 10 when BW hit the shelves, so I very much grew up with that game, among others. It's so bizarre to me that there are a bunch of users who weren't born until after Brood War's release.Wait I've never seen a DT and HT morph before, haha holy shit I didn't know that. The concept of Hts and Dts morphing to different archons is awesome, I'd definitely want to see that  . | ||
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Jaded.
United States125 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 10 2014 09:29 FeyFey wrote: The Reaver was popular because of its RNG though, same reason why people love Hearthstone. Creates excitement because the player can't control the hit and miss. They can use it in the right moment though, to create an awesome play. I would say the Widowmine was pretty much a test if they want to bring RNG into Sc2. And the theme of LotV seems to be Voidzones and giving a race its Colossus back >.< . Nah far from true. Reason ppl do found reaver exciting is because when its used to harass, the enemy has a great way to deal with it. There is always uncertainty involved with the reaver, but not from rng but from how the protoss control the reaver and how the enemy control its defence against it. Its probably worth to note here, that its more fun to watch reaverharass vs terran mech than vs zerg. Because usually with zerg - There are alot of hydras everywhere. While vs mech, its more about positioning and tactic. Reaver can be used as a defensive unit vs zerg. Not vs mech(worth to point out i guess) In later stages of the game(big armee vs big armee), zerg has ways to deal with the unit with its core ground units. You dont need a hardcounter unit at all to deal with it. I love the harass with the reaver. I love that reaver can be used as defence on its on or atleast behind a few cannons vs zerg. Some negative parts about the reaver imo is that sometimes, it feels like reaver is the only unit that is microed in fights while the rest is pretty much on autopilot. Might be wrong on this, but i feel its a mandatory lategame unit in pvz in broodwar. Reaver scarab doesnt have any RNG btw, its consistent in the way it works, but i can understand why some ppl believe it is RNG. Before i want the reaver in Lotv i actually want to see this new robo unit in play alot more. The Disruptor. Maybe tweak it, try and make it more interesting? But i rly like the concept atm. Maybe reaver would be more fun. If reaver is introduced in Lotv - I hope colossus gets a completely different role and tweaked tremendously or just removed from the game. Also hope they focus on to do not make it super strong in deathball. Something that might be worth mentioning - There are no scourges in Lotv(atm atleast), this might mean its possible to move out with warpprism+2reavers and a few zealot/archon etc vs zerg. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45248 Posts
On November 10 2014 08:58 FeyFey wrote: Don't forget the ranged pickup of the Warp Prism. Got a Reaver Shuttle without Reaver haha. Most expensive scarab ever x.x | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On November 10 2014 10:55 mishimaBeef wrote: The new self destruct unit seems like a reaver whose scarab you control. How high are you? And why was not this prefaced by a lengthy "maaaaaaaaaan" Maaaaan it's like a reaver who's actually a scarab shot by nothing and it explodes man! Anyhow, the reason why I think the reaver is not likely to happen in SC2 is that it seems to me like what made the BW reaver balanced is the scarab duds which over the years saved millions of drones/probes/scvs. The dumb AI was part of what made SCBW so good. Now with smart AI, the scarab wouldn't glitch on anything, so you can't have it doing 125 dmg or whatever it was... unless you made the reaver difficult to use on purpose, and I have no idea how that would be done if it's even possible. | ||
Falling
Canada11409 Posts
On November 10 2014 10:55 mishimaBeef wrote: The new self destruct unit seems like a reaver whose scarab you control. Therefore not quite as interesting. A lot of the micro came from the pick up and dropping in very precise positions. This is particularly the case when you look at how the damage works in comparison. Disrupter splashes out in all directions, so the goal would be get it into the middle, any middle will do, and destruct. Scarab splashed back, so it was better to pick back targets to splash back to the forward targets. Therefore targetting specific units was a big deal. Also keeping the shuttle moving so that it wouldn't deaccelerate before you pick up your reaver again. In addition, dropping a zealot to absorb the tank shot so the reaver could get its shot off and sniping the tank without dying immediately. Shuttle-reaver is really its own micro game. I wonder with the worker changes, how well a reaver would actually do in practice. On the one hand, there will be less workers at each base? (Reavers work best when units are clumped together- an over-saturated base is a prime target.) But if you bump up the splash to deal with spread out worker lines, military units clump up way more easily. But the damage must be big for a reaver, or reaver equivalent (reaver-analog, if you will) to work. The reason why you don't see collosus-warp-prism micro to the same extent as reaver-shuttle is at least partially because Collosus needs to fire continously for a period of time before killing anything. Whereas a reaver-analog needs to be able to kill small units in one shot burst damage with a slow cool down, and things like tanks in two shots. Otherwise there is little reason to keep on picking up and dropping off the reaver-analog. You would be better off just leaving them on the ground, firing continuously (like the Cyclone.) The playstyle of the reaver-analog is opportunism. Pickup and drop-off where there is an opening, take your pot shot and run. Rarely commit, and usually retreat, loop around, and find a new hole to exploit. But you need that one shot damage to really count for a gamer to sink their apm into it. edit By the way- reaver duds are not as random as people think. The scarab is on a timer, if the scarab does not reach its target before the timer completes, the scarab explodes. SC2 could create a similar weapon if they called it a Time Bomb. That is essentially what a scarab is. What caused scarabs to 'bug' was the scarab takes up space and therefore needs to find a gap for it to go through, if there is no gap, the scarab must go around. A small gap will bug out the scarab for a little until it tries to go around... and then the timer goes off. With building placement, you could actually create anti-scarab gaps, forcing scarabs to go around the long way, and thereby hopefully running out the timer. The same thing with running worker lines away. Run directly away, and you could run out the timer. Run perpindicular, and the scarab will catch up and blow your workers to smithereens. | ||
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Lumi
United States1616 Posts
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