EPTAlso, the warpgate thing is good for Protoss. It isn't a nerf in the long run because it will actually allow Gateway units to get needed buffs. Right now it is just dumb how the warpgate mechanic works, and it hurts protoss because it means that their gateway units always have to be of a certain minimal strength to not be OP with instant warp in. Now all the sudden you get this trade between warpgate or regular, and that is a cool feature. If you have someone on the ropes go warp-gate and get some "instant" reinforcement. It also changes up map design for the better I think too by removing mandatory warp-gate.
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
Also, the warpgate thing is good for Protoss. It isn't a nerf in the long run because it will actually allow Gateway units to get needed buffs. Right now it is just dumb how the warpgate mechanic works, and it hurts protoss because it means that their gateway units always have to be of a certain minimal strength to not be OP with instant warp in. Now all the sudden you get this trade between warpgate or regular, and that is a cool feature. If you have someone on the ropes go warp-gate and get some "instant" reinforcement. It also changes up map design for the better I think too by removing mandatory warp-gate. | ||
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WTCO
United States646 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:26 ZAiNs wrote: As demonstrated in the video, their main attack only hits ground, but their ability hits air units and is good vs Brood Lords. The ability does 500 damage over 50 seconds. The question I have (as a low level player mind you) is that it seems like it deals damage slowly enough that Transfuse from Queens will make it not all that effective. And then you have no other damage dealer that can deal with the Brood Lords if there's a decent ground army to supplement them,. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
I thought Raven redesign was one of the most obvious one along with Swarm Host (and Oracle). Now all the sudden you get this trade between warpgate or regular, and that is a cool feature. No. Warpgate will still be the only way to play as toss. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:27 Hider wrote: Yeh, it will obviously also require huge changes to toss. What makes it obvious to me that the econ-change was a last-minute thing was the 8-second warp time as well. To me that change implies that blizzard wants harass vs toss to be even stronger, which doesn't fit in at all with the econ change. Also for a while in Starbow, we did try to balance the game around this low-saturation econ, but it's just an absolute mess when the defenders advantage is this small. No. It won't require a huge change to toss. It will require a huge change to MAPS and/or toss. Forget everything about bases and economy in HotS, because new a economic setup means new approaches to mapmaking. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:27 Hider wrote: Yeh, it will obviously also require huge changes to toss. What makes it obvious to me that the econ-change was a last-minute thing was the 8-second warp time as well. To me that change implies that blizzard wants harass vs toss to be even stronger, which doesn't fit in at all with the econ change. Also for a while in Starbow, we did try to balance the game around this low-saturation econ, but it's just an absolute mess when the defenders advantage is this small. Yeah banshees OP/overcharge not hitting air -therefore medivacs-/last second warp-ins barely relevant all mean P can't defend harass now, which it was already quite terrible at. So how on Earth would P be supposed to compete if they need >3 bases ? Drop play / Muta / Oracles will be the bane of the existence of every P that doesn't want to just all-in every game. | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1100 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2971 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:29 FLuE wrote: My guess is the end up settling around 8 workers or something like that. It does sorta make sense, is there anything that happens generally in those first 2 worker rounds? Give Blizzard enough credit that they won't do something that removes an entire aspect of the game but it does sorta make sense to adjust a part of the game that happens identical each and every game. As some have mentioned too this might simply be a Blizzcon thing to get people in and out playing faster. The idea of less mineral patches per base and the way saturation works is very good though. Also, the warpgate thing is good for Protoss. It isn't a nerf in the long run because it will actually allow Gateway units to get needed buffs. Right now it is just dumb how the warpgate mechanic works, and it hurts protoss because it means that their gateway units always have to be of a certain minimal strength to not be OP with instant warp in. Now all the sudden you get this trade between warpgate or regular, and that is a cool feature. If you have someone on the ropes go warp-gate and get some "instant" reinforcement. It also changes up map design for the better I think too by removing mandatory warp-gate. Cheese happens in the first 2 worker rounds, except not so much anymore due to the maps that are about these days. That's where you don't want to do too much with changing the balance just because it doesn't work on some maps. Focus on maps as well as balancing units. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:29 WTCO wrote: The question I have (as a low level player mind you) is that it seems like it deals damage slowly enough that Transfuse from Queens will make it not all that effective. And then you have no other damage dealer that can deal with the Brood Lords if there's a decent ground army to supplement them,. It'll take a lot of Queens with a lot of energy to transfuse a few Brood Lords for a while. A Warp Prism with 4 HT with max energy can feedback 16 Queens, so it'll be down to micro I suppose. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:29 Lonyo wrote: There is one KEY KEY KEY thing to remember. They are changing bases, and that means that maps MUST be designed to work with the new base mechanics, as well as the new units. The main problems will come if the maps aren't iterated quickly enough to work with the new play ideas. Maps are crazy important in SC2 (and in SCBW). Units make the game work. Maps make the game work WELL. Hopefully Blizzard will just spam out like 12 different maps with 6 different map ideas (e.g. layout, bases, spawn positions etc) at 2 maps per map idea, and then people can play and work out what works well and what doesn't work well. The maps and iterating the maps will be important when they have made so many changes and hopefully they won't make too many unit changes just because there are problems with certain map types that might just not work. Well, it's kind of a circular argument. We make changes but to test them we need suitable maps, but to know if the maps are suitable we need to test them with the changes, but now if something is broken how do we know if it comes from the map or the change itself ? They're really really making their work harder than they should. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16100 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:32 [PkF] Wire wrote: Well, it's kind of a circular argument. We make changes but to test them we need suitable maps, but to know if the maps are suitable we need to test them with the changes, but now if something is broken how do we know if it comes from the map or the change itself ? They're really really making their work harder than they should. That's why you test your new units on a wide variety of maps... as I said in the post you quoted... | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:30 Lonyo wrote: No. It won't require a huge change to toss. It will require a huge change to MAPS and/or toss. Forget everything about bases and economy in HotS, because new a economic setup means new approaches to mapmaking. The only thing you can do here is to have bases much closer to each other, but what is the point then? Then you don't spread out more. All you do is invest more minerals into bases without spreading more out. But yeh, mapmaking could balance it (theoretically) but then LOTV will just add another constraint on mapmakers, which isn't needed at all. Yeah banshees OP/overcharge not hitting air -therefore medivacs-/last second warp-ins barely relevant all mean P can't defend harass now, which it was already quite terrible at. So how on Earth would P be supposed to compete if they need >3 bases ? Drop play / Muta / Oracles will be the bane of the existence of every P that doesn't want to just all-in every game. Below are some of the larger changes I would implement. - Leave econ where it is (messing with this is much more complicated than 99% of the community realizes, and the benefits are mostly overrated) - Redesign Collosus in order to give it more synergy with Warp Prism, remove AA vulnerability and make a better interaction between bio vs collosus and collosus vs roach/hydra - Get rid of Swarm Host or give the Swarm Host the same role as the Lurker - Make Immortals more like a Dragoon --> A unit that is faster and more responsive. - Give Oracle a better moving shot and nerf damage alot. - Banshee change and Tank change are fine as long as other races gets harass buffs as well. - Overlord drops buffed. - Keep warp-in research time at 4 seconds, but buff Hellion/hellbat as harass units vs zerg and toss in the mid/late game. - Warp Prism. I also disagree with this kind of dropplay micro Blizzard wants to incentivize. I think it removes counterplay if enemy can't target fire warp prism. If Immortal and Collosus are redesigned anyway, then make it possbile for these units to function better with the Warp Prism. The first variable that should be tweaked is the damage point which should be set to 0 so they don't have to stand in place for 0.x seconds before they can attack. This makes them more responsive and they will attack faster after they have been dropped off. Secondly, Immortal could be redesigned with like 7 range or so, which will help its overall mobility a bit + make it better drop/pick-up unit. | ||
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SpunXtain20
Australia554 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:32 Vindicare605 wrote: If the Youtube comments are to be believed Protoss is completely screwed in the next expansion. lol. Confirming those videos are made to please the fans, I know a lot of people full of gall and hatred who don't realize how hard P is to actually play properly and will be happy to say shit like "ha ha, now you get to micro things too" or "feels strange now that overcharge doesn't defend everything huh" (which it already doesn't, but anyway). | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:29 Lonyo wrote: There is one KEY KEY KEY thing to remember. They are changing bases, and that means that maps MUST be designed to work with the new base mechanics, as well as the new units. The main problems will come if the maps aren't iterated quickly enough to work with the new play ideas. Maps are crazy important in SC2 (and in SCBW). Units make the game work. Maps make the game work WELL. Overgrowth = 2 spawn map , perfectly mirrored, with little open space. Do maps have to be Rorschach mirrors? What is wrong with cul-de-sacs and unique areas in only one space? Doesn't it seem like "asymmetry" creates a mix of more random play? | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:33 Hider wrote: The only thing you can do here is to have bases much closer to each other, but what is the point then? Then you don't spread out more. All you do is invest more minerals into bases without spreading more out. But yeh, mapmaking could balance it (theoretically) but then LOTV had just added another constraint on mapmakers, which isn't needed at all. from what I gather the common thought amongst mapmakers is confusion and some slight anger towards lower resource minerals. also we're somewhat confused about blizzard speaking of discussing usage of community maps when not a single mapmaker has heard a word about this before. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24236 Posts
On November 08 2014 06:33 Lonyo wrote: That's why you test your new units on a wide variety of maps... as I said in the post you quoted... I get it but it doesn't change the fact they'll have to have bases closer to each other -which defies the initial idea- and make their work much harder than what could have been achieved by just tweaking the units not working well. | ||
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