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On November 25 2014 17:56 Heartland wrote:
I've been thinking about what sort of mechanics aren't used in sc2. Now they're adding some kind of blind mortar fire with the Ravager and that's cool. What about long range skill shots? Perhaps it's a terrible idea, but I could see it being an interesting ability for some units as it requires specific skills and relates to the game in a new way. Obviously it can't work in the exact same way as it might in a moba (and I am not that familiar with how that works) but it can't be too hard to tweak to not be too strong or too weak.
What other mechanics aren't in sc2 ?
I'm all with you. Though the game utilizes a lot more potential then you'd quickly think off, but most of the interesting attacks are only on one or two units. Most units have very boring attacks:
target unit attack
target unit attack with projectile
but in the game we also have:
target unit splash attacks in various forms (line, 180°, 360°)
area mortar (fungal growth, EMP, ravager thingy*)
area dot creation (psi storm)
direction splash shot (lurker attack)*
what I can think of from the top of my head, that isn't in the game:
direction first impact shot (think DotA pudge)
*LotV content
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im just glad 'they' finally admit that something is wrong with collossus. we all knew it, the denial was epic, but there it is.
'What we see is that pro's protect their collossus and just win games'.
and yes, i realise its a tad more complicated than that. however, the point stands, collossus were too user friendly for the damage they did.
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On November 25 2014 18:47 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 18:36 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 25 2014 17:56 Heartland wrote:
I've been thinking about what sort of mechanics aren't used in sc2. Now they're adding some kind of blind mortar fire with the Ravager and that's cool. What about long range skill shots? Perhaps it's a terrible idea, but I could see it being an interesting ability for some units as it requires specific skills and relates to the game in a new way. Obviously it can't work in the exact same way as it might in a moba (and I am not that familiar with how that works) but it can't be too hard to tweak to not be too strong or too weak.
What other mechanics aren't in sc2 ? How about neutral creatures for hunting like those in War3? It could be a bunch of Primal Zerg, Tal'darim Jihads or Terran Mercenaries or a hybrid or the like scattered at specific positions on a map, somewhere far away from your base. If you go attack them and defeat them, you'll be rewarded with resources pickup - like those in the campaigns, immediate 250 minerals or 150 gas, but the risk is that your base could be in danger of getting harassed without proper defense, and you could lose some of your precious early-game units to the neural creatures during the "hunting". We want players engaging players, not attacking failsafe and more rewarding creeps.
Actually, golden minerals have already played the role of rewarding creeps as whoever occupies it will get more mineral income, but that only rewards aggressive players. However, if there are rewarding creeps, a defensive player can secretly attack them and get extra income to balance the odds of having less bases than his opponent.
Aboyut the long range skillshot;
Storm/Nuke/EMP/Fungal are what you mean, perhaps?
Longer range starts to become too random.
Shorten the channelling time of a nuke drop to 5 seconds or shorter with the big red circle on targeted area being VISIBLE to everyone so to make it escapable.
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On November 25 2014 19:01 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 18:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 25 2014 18:36 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 25 2014 17:56 Heartland wrote:
I've been thinking about what sort of mechanics aren't used in sc2. Now they're adding some kind of blind mortar fire with the Ravager and that's cool. What about long range skill shots? Perhaps it's a terrible idea, but I could see it being an interesting ability for some units as it requires specific skills and relates to the game in a new way. Obviously it can't work in the exact same way as it might in a moba (and I am not that familiar with how that works) but it can't be too hard to tweak to not be too strong or too weak.
What other mechanics aren't in sc2 ? How about neutral creatures for hunting like those in War3? It could be a bunch of Primal Zerg, Tal'darim Jihads or Terran Mercenaries or a hybrid or the like scattered at specific positions on a map, somewhere far away from your base. If you go attack them and defeat them, you'll be rewarded with resources pickup - like those in the campaigns, immediate 250 minerals or 150 gas, but the risk is that your base could be in danger of getting harassed without proper defense, and you could lose some of your precious early-game units to the neural creatures during the "hunting". We want players engaging players, not attacking failsafe and more rewarding creeps. Actually, golden minerals have already played the role of rewarding creeps as whoever occupies it will get more mineral income, but that only rewards aggressive players. However, if there are rewarding creeps, a defensive player can secretly attack them and get extra income to balance the odds of having less bases than his opponent. Show nested quote +Aboyut the long range skillshot;
Storm/Nuke/EMP/Fungal are what you mean, perhaps?
Longer range starts to become too random. Shorten the channelling time of a nuke drop to 5 seconds or shorter with the big red circle on targeted area being VISIBLE to everyone so to make it escapable.
You fail to see how SC2 is not about secretly and luckilly making moves but about decision making. 5 sec Nuke completely WRECKS positioning in the lategame as Terran can pretty much amove straight forwards using a couple of Nukes.
Creeps are bad because they interfere with map design, make reading advantages harder, are encouraging opportunistic play....
The only pro argument is that they add something SC2 doesn't yet have. We don't have FPS mechanics either, let's make it so ytou can control a marine for he heck of it!
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On November 25 2014 18:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 17:56 Heartland wrote:
I've been thinking about what sort of mechanics aren't used in sc2. Now they're adding some kind of blind mortar fire with the Ravager and that's cool. What about long range skill shots? Perhaps it's a terrible idea, but I could see it being an interesting ability for some units as it requires specific skills and relates to the game in a new way. Obviously it can't work in the exact same way as it might in a moba (and I am not that familiar with how that works) but it can't be too hard to tweak to not be too strong or too weak.
What other mechanics aren't in sc2 ? I'm all with you. Though the game utilizes a lot more potential then you'd quickly think off, but most of the interesting attacks are only on one or two units. Most units have very boring attacks: target unit attack target unit attack with projectile but in the game we also have: target unit splash attacks in various forms (line, 180°, 360°) area mortar (fungal growth, EMP, ravager thingy*) area dot creation (psi storm) direction splash shot (lurker attack)* what I can think of from the top of my head, that isn't in the game: direction first impact shot (think DotA pudge) *LotV content
Maybe i misunderstand now but here goes anyway.
Casttime:
On spells
On abilities
Spells could have further range with a casttime.
Cast within 3range, instant. Cast 12range away, 3sec cast.
Channel spells/abilities:
The longer you channel, the greater the radius
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On November 25 2014 19:22 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 18:55 Big J wrote:On November 25 2014 17:56 Heartland wrote:
I've been thinking about what sort of mechanics aren't used in sc2. Now they're adding some kind of blind mortar fire with the Ravager and that's cool. What about long range skill shots? Perhaps it's a terrible idea, but I could see it being an interesting ability for some units as it requires specific skills and relates to the game in a new way. Obviously it can't work in the exact same way as it might in a moba (and I am not that familiar with how that works) but it can't be too hard to tweak to not be too strong or too weak.
What other mechanics aren't in sc2 ? I'm all with you. Though the game utilizes a lot more potential then you'd quickly think off, but most of the interesting attacks are only on one or two units. Most units have very boring attacks: target unit attack target unit attack with projectile but in the game we also have: target unit splash attacks in various forms (line, 180°, 360°) area mortar (fungal growth, EMP, ravager thingy*) area dot creation (psi storm) direction splash shot (lurker attack)* what I can think of from the top of my head, that isn't in the game: direction first impact shot (think DotA pudge) *LotV content Maybe i misunderstand now but here goes anyway. Casttime: On spells On abilities Spells could have further range with a casttime. Cast within 3range, instant. Cast 12range away, 3sec cast. Channel spells/abilities: The longer you channel, the greater the radius
I now have a picture in my head of a Colossus focusing his lasers on the ground to melt it and the molten area expands the longer the Colossus shoots it and the more Colossi focus it. :O (btw such a mechanic is in the game: creep)
Ah god, I need to learn that editor so badly (and I know I will never). Hope someday I'll have enough money to hire someone that creates an RTS game with/for me. 
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In WC3 all catapult units had a bombard ability, where you could select an area and the catapult would just keep on shooting at the area.
If you did that to say the Void Ray, gave it splash and the old Void Ray charge up, where damage would increase over time, you'd have a similar effect.
We have channeling spells in Nukes and soon the Battlecruiser teleport.
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In terms of spell mechanics. Here are some from previous Blizz titles:
Blaze: Activate, a bunch of small psi-storms appear where the unit walks leaving a trail of AoE dmg.
Web: Pull down an air unit and make it ground targettable (unable to move.)
Spiked Barricade: When attacking the unit/building, the attacker takes damage.
Pillage: Damaging buildings will earn the owner of the unit resources.
Now that Neural is gone: any mind control unit, timed/permanent, could be like possess, where your unit gets lost as it takes control of the new unit.
Vortex: It was an awesome mechanic, the fact that you could combine it with AoE, made it also cool. Obviously it didn't pan out great in the late Wings era, but honestly this spell in a smaller form and less devastating would be great.
Consume: The unit eats the other unit, either dissapearing or slowly decaying inside the unit, giving vision over the unit.
I could imagine a new Nydus head where you simply target a small area, earth starts trembling in the area and if the defender of the nydus does not see this and run away the units. they get eaten by the nydus. Nydus then swiftly dissapears.
Chain Lightning: Initital target takes most dmg, all bounces thereafter takes less dmg (bounces hit the closest target.)
Taunt: all nearby enemy units attack this unit
I dno there's a bunch.
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On November 25 2014 20:04 ejozl wrote:
In terms of spell mechanics. Here are some from previous Blizz titles:
Blaze: Activate, a bunch of small psi-storms appear where the unit walks leaving a trail of AoE dmg.
too easy to nullify, and if not, needs to deal friendly fire
Web: Pull down an air unit and make it ground targettable (unable to move.)
Overlaps with Graviton which does the same
Spiked Barricade: When attacking the unit/building, the attacker takes damage.
In SC2 we have way more units, so those can deal the damage. Same principle, different process
Pillage: Damaging buildings will earn the owner of the unit resources.
We mine money, we don't get it out of thin air. That ability allows for massive massive turtling
Now that Neural is gone: any mind control unit, timed/permanent, could be like possess, where your unit gets lost as it takes control of the new unit.
Neural didn't work because in whatever situation you used it, it was either OP or not worth it. It got nerfed. Now it was never worth it. Bye Neural. Taking over a unit akin to the Replicator is terrible as well. There's a reason that didn't go through
Vortex: It was an awesome mechanic, the fact that you could combine it with AoE, made it also cool. Obviously it didn't pan out great in the late Wings era, but honestly this spell in a smaller form and less devastating would be great.
Vortix messes with positioning just like forcefield and time warp do. We don't want your opponent to decide what units you can now all of a sudden not control anymore. It's coming back in the form of Stasis Ward, doing the same thing except making AoE op.
Consume: The unit eats the other unit, either dissapearing or slowly decaying inside the unit, giving vision over the unit.
I could imagine a new Nydus head where you simply target a small area, earth starts trembling in the area and if the defender of the nydus does not see this and run away the units. they get eaten by the nydus. Nydus then swiftly dissapears.Vipers consume. It is not needed anywhere else in the game
Chain Lightning: Initital target takes most dmg, all bounces thereafter takes less dmg (bounces hit the closest target.)
Taunt: all nearby enemy units attack this unit
Muta Bounce
I dno there's a bunch.
You guys need to understand there's a lot of shit we can add just to add shit. We (and Blizzard) shouldn't want that. We can come up with 40 units per race ezpz, no problem. Why would we though? We need to fill gaps and make the game fun, designed around the basis of starcraft.
Also, I'm fairly certain you copied all those ideas from WC/SC, so Blizzard is undoubtedly aware of those.
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On November 25 2014 20:12 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 20:04 ejozl wrote:
In terms of spell mechanics. Here are some from previous Blizz titles:
Blaze: Activate, a bunch of small psi-storms appear where the unit walks leaving a trail of AoE dmg.
too easy to nullify, and if not, needs to deal friendly fire
Web: Pull down an air unit and make it ground targettable (unable to move.)
Overlaps with Graviton which does the same
Spiked Barricade: When attacking the unit/building, the attacker takes damage.
In SC2 we have way more units, so those can deal the damage. Same principle, different process
Pillage: Damaging buildings will earn the owner of the unit resources.
We mine money, we don't get it out of thin air. That ability allows for massive massive turtling
Now that Neural is gone: any mind control unit, timed/permanent, could be like possess, where your unit gets lost as it takes control of the new unit.
Neural didn't work because in whatever situation you used it, it was either OP or not worth it. It got nerfed. Now it was never worth it. Bye Neural. Taking over a unit akin to the Replicator is terrible as well. There's a reason that didn't go through
Vortex: It was an awesome mechanic, the fact that you could combine it with AoE, made it also cool. Obviously it didn't pan out great in the late Wings era, but honestly this spell in a smaller form and less devastating would be great.
Vortix messes with positioning just like forcefield and time warp do. We don't want your opponent to decide what units you can now all of a sudden not control anymore. It's coming back in the form of Stasis Ward, doing the same thing except making AoE op.
Consume: The unit eats the other unit, either dissapearing or slowly decaying inside the unit, giving vision over the unit.
I could imagine a new Nydus head where you simply target a small area, earth starts trembling in the area and if the defender of the nydus does not see this and run away the units. they get eaten by the nydus. Nydus then swiftly dissapears.Vipers consume. It is not needed anywhere else in the game
Chain Lightning: Initital target takes most dmg, all bounces thereafter takes less dmg (bounces hit the closest target.)
Taunt: all nearby enemy units attack this unit
Muta Bounce
I dno there's a bunch. You guys need to understand there's a lot of shit we can add just to add shit. We (and Blizzard) shouldn't want that. We can come up with 40 units per race ezpz, no problem. Why would we though? We need to fill gaps and make the game fun, designed around the basis of starcraft. Also, I'm fairly certain you copied all those ideas from WC/SC, so Blizzard is undoubtedly aware of those.
But you could easily improve existing units with old ideas. And I don't mean in the form of another ability button, but with regular attacks that have such effects.
Take the lurker: the attack of the lurker is awesome because it isn't targetseeking. You can micro against it. Why can't I micro against a regular marauder shot too?
Why don't more projectiles behave like the old seeker missile? If I run far enough, it doesn't hit!
If we want more micro, attacks and how they interact with movement/positioning are the coolest way to go, imo.
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On November 25 2014 19:17 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 19:01 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 25 2014 18:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 25 2014 18:36 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 25 2014 17:56 Heartland wrote:
I've been thinking about what sort of mechanics aren't used in sc2. Now they're adding some kind of blind mortar fire with the Ravager and that's cool. What about long range skill shots? Perhaps it's a terrible idea, but I could see it being an interesting ability for some units as it requires specific skills and relates to the game in a new way. Obviously it can't work in the exact same way as it might in a moba (and I am not that familiar with how that works) but it can't be too hard to tweak to not be too strong or too weak.
What other mechanics aren't in sc2 ? How about neutral creatures for hunting like those in War3? It could be a bunch of Primal Zerg, Tal'darim Jihads or Terran Mercenaries or a hybrid or the like scattered at specific positions on a map, somewhere far away from your base. If you go attack them and defeat them, you'll be rewarded with resources pickup - like those in the campaigns, immediate 250 minerals or 150 gas, but the risk is that your base could be in danger of getting harassed without proper defense, and you could lose some of your precious early-game units to the neural creatures during the "hunting". We want players engaging players, not attacking failsafe and more rewarding creeps. Actually, golden minerals have already played the role of rewarding creeps as whoever occupies it will get more mineral income, but that only rewards aggressive players. However, if there are rewarding creeps, a defensive player can secretly attack them and get extra income to balance the odds of having less bases than his opponent. Aboyut the long range skillshot;
Storm/Nuke/EMP/Fungal are what you mean, perhaps?
Longer range starts to become too random. Shorten the channelling time of a nuke drop to 5 seconds or shorter with the big red circle on targeted area being VISIBLE to everyone so to make it escapable. You fail to see how SC2 is not about secretly and luckilly making moves but about decision making. 5 sec Nuke completely WRECKS positioning in the lategame as Terran can pretty much amove straight forwards using a couple of Nukes.
If that's the case, then just limit the amount of nuke that one player can have at a time to ONE and shorten the nuke's build time.
Creeps are bad because they interfere with map design, make reading advantages harder, are encouraging opportunistic play....
How about a "looting" mechanic? Destroy an enemy building and get a small amount of resources. That would be fun. 
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On November 25 2014 19:38 ejozl wrote:
In WC3 all catapult units had a bombard ability, where you could select an area and the catapult would just keep on shooting at the area.
That might be cool: units fire some splash attack and aside from dealing damage it leaves behind fire in that area for 10 seconds which deals 10 dps or something.
Another fun ability that's missing from sc2 is firewall from diablo, i.e. targetable line splash. And hellions could get blaze from diablo as well.
In a fantasy themed game that would be fun with units immune to fire that can get some buff while standing in fire or that can teleport from and to fireplaces.
(nonsensical, I know)
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lol i just realized that the swarmhost with the flying locust is just a ground broodlord. if funny cause there talking about trying to not have unit over lap but this is whats going to happen.also i wonder if you can shoot locust out the sky or not.
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On November 25 2014 22:19 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2014 19:38 ejozl wrote:
In WC3 all catapult units had a bombard ability, where you could select an area and the catapult would just keep on shooting at the area.
That might be cool: units fire some splash attack and aside from dealing damage it leaves behind fire in that area for 10 seconds which deals 10 dps or something. Another fun ability that's missing from sc2 is firewall from diablo, i.e. targetable line splash. And hellions could get blaze from diablo as well. In a fantasy themed game that would be fun with units immune to fire that can get some buff while standing in fire or that can teleport from and to fireplaces. (nonsensical, I know)
Doesn't have to be fire, could be bio-hazard on the ground even. Or some Zerg acid.
I'd love to see a retreating army and then just one super mobile unit had just blazed up the entire area and there's only an escape through this.
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On November 25 2014 22:28 starslayer wrote:
lol i just realized that the swarmhost with the flying locust is just a ground broodlord. if funny cause there talking about trying to not have unit over lap but this is whats going to happen.also i wonder if you can shoot locust out the sky or not.
See, its role is overlapping with both broodlord and lurker! It should be removed from the game. Free unit is terrible.
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On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote:Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay. 
No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units.
There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now.
PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection.
Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them.
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Well, if ghost's EMP were replaced with SC1's lockdown - which would be a hard counter of colossus but no more counters of templars, would you have a lot of templar (and archons after Psi Storms are cast) instead?
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I wonder how many Protoss players would be happy if their highly mobile siege unit is replaced with a unit that takes positioning or a bit more skill to use.. Also replacing it may not be the most straight forward of tasks with the design of Protoss and with bio balls/swarm hosts in the game. I have a feeling this unit will still be present in LotV somehow
edit: I do hope they can find a way to replace it though. Both from a spectator view and playing wise the unit is not want I want to see in an RTS. It looks ridiculous and the unit is not rewarding to use when accompanied with a doom ball of other toss units smashing their way through some opponent microing his/hers ass off.
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If colossus was removed for a unit that takes more positioning or skill (riiibbbaaaaaa) I might actually buy the expansion. But they're so good and so important that theres no way to protoss players to not use them. But with out that big aoe seige unit, be it collosus, reaver or something else, terran bio or zerg bs will just over run toss with out khadarian. Maybe bring back KA, but only on templars coming out of regular gate ways, aka no warp in insta storm. That would let toss have defensive storms, but not be able to warp in templars from a prism to destroy a entire mineral line anywhere with 0 effort.
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I doubt if colossus will be removed or have some drastic redesign, but T and Z will definitely have more options to deal with P's deathball.
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EPT
