On November 26 2014 00:14 -Celestial- wrote: There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine.
And hydra. Aaaaand Swarmhost.
On November 26 2014 00:41 KrOmander wrote: I wonder how many Protoss players would be happy if their highly mobile siege unit is replaced with a unit that takes positioning or a bit more skill to use..
I can't speak for all the Protoss players, but I would be delighted. Collosus is incredibly boring and dumb unit to use. Sadly we have no choice...
On November 26 2014 00:34 TedCruz2016 wrote: Well, if ghost's EMP were replaced with SC1's lockdown - which would be a hard counter of colossus but no more counters of templars, would you have a lot of templar (and archons after Psi Storms are cast) instead?
The current issue with Templars is that with the buffs to Widow Mines you can't open with them and hope to survive in any ways reliably. If you nerf the Colossus as well expect winrates to take a severe dip because Protoss will just flat out not be able to have the AoE needed to deal with mass swarms of small, effective units.
Again, in theory a Reaver as an option would be great. But personally I fear its a unit thats inherently either all-or-nothing in design for SC2. Either its going to be OP as hell or so weak its not worth using.
On November 26 2014 00:14 -Celestial- wrote: There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine.
And hydra. Aaaaand Swarmhost.
I skipped Swarmhost because they're changing it for LotV tbh. Not sure how its going to effect Colossi responses.
Hydras I thought about mentioning. Agreed, but they're not as ubiquitous as the Marine.
On November 26 2014 00:41 KrOmander wrote: I wonder how many Protoss players would be happy if their highly mobile siege unit is replaced with a unit that takes positioning or a bit more skill to use..
I can't speak for all the Protoss players, but I would be delighted. Collosus is incredibly boring and dumb unit to use. Sadly we have no choice...
I used to be a huge fan of Templar openings. Especially in WoL days when few people at my scrub tier level expected it because it was Colossus 24/7.
On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote: Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay.
No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units.
There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now.
PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection.
Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them.
ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly
On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote: Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay.
No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units.
There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now.
PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection.
Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them.
ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly
Hmm, how about tempest being redesigned into colossus's replacement with massive AoE damage against clumps of low-HP ground units like marine? You see, both tempest and carrier have shown up in the demo video and the pvz showmatch, but apparently one of them has to go, otherwise one of them has to be redesigned, so it's possible.
On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote: Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay.
No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units.
There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now.
PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection.
Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them.
ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly
The problem was never the marine, marines are quite awful and useless in TvP, the problem is marauders, it doesn't matter how much counters to the marine you make because the marauder would destroy them, colossus, stalkers and archons are the way they are because the marauders, so it doesn't matter how many unit interactions you make with the marine because the marauder would just break it
On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote: Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay.
No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units.
There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now.
PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection.
Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them.
ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly
The problem was never the marine, marines are quite awful and useless in TvP, the problem is marauders, it doesn't matter how much counters to the marine you make because the marauder would destroy them, colossus, stalkers and archons are the way they are because the marauders, so it doesn't matter how many unit interactions you make with the marine because the marauder would just break it
No the problem isn't Marauder either. The problem is MMM. You can counter Marine np (hell, even stalker counters marine until stim is done, and even after that it's decent). And you can counter Marauder too (Zealot, Immortall). What you cannot counter, without Collosi or HTs, are Marines Marauders and Medivacs combined. Those units just complement each other too well. That's the issue here, IMO.
On November 26 2014 10:27 TedCruz2016 wrote: But P's ultimate 200 supply deathball is still overwhelming. If it has both HT and colossus, 150 supply is basically GG for T.
Not with the new units - both counter Colossi in a very effective way
The herc gives a new "front" melee line to the Terran army, and the Cyclone is basically designed to take out Colossi with relative ease and rather fast (or that's should be opted for however)
On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote: Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay.
No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units.
There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now.
PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection.
Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them.
ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly
The problem was never the marine, marines are quite awful and useless in TvP, the problem is marauders, it doesn't matter how much counters to the marine you make because the marauder would destroy them, colossus, stalkers and archons are the way they are because the marauders, so it doesn't matter how many unit interactions you make with the marine because the marauder would just break it
No the problem isn't Marauder either. The problem is MMM. You can counter Marine np (hell, even stalker counters marine until stim is done, and even after that it's decent). And you can counter Marauder too (Zealot, Immortall). What you cannot counter, without Collosi or HTs, are Marines Marauders and Medivacs combined. Those units just complement each other too well. That's the issue here, IMO.
It's mostly the medivac. Marines and marauders can be dealt with carefully with just gateway units, but the medivac breaks that interaction and forces AoE. Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries can handle pure marine/marauder okay, but a few medivacs and suddenly the protoss gateway army becomes useless.
On November 26 2014 10:27 TedCruz2016 wrote: But P's ultimate 200 supply deathball is still overwhelming. If it has both HT and colossus, 150 supply is basically GG for T.
Not with the new units - both counter Colossi in a very effective way
The herc gives a new "front" melee line to the Terran army, and the Cyclone is basically designed to take out Colossi with relative ease and rather fast (or that's should be opted for however)
That we'll have to wait and see. I think the biggest problem is Immortal, not colossus. Had it removed, T could've been able to easily defeat a deathball with its current mech and air units.
And speaking of a drastic redesign for P, my idea is that warp-in mechanic be applied to all units - which means robotic facility and stargate units can be warped in, but the CD is equivalent to the warped unit's original build time (warp a colossus and get a 75 second CD; warp an observer and get a 30 second CD, etc), meanwhile:
- chronoboost removed and replaced with a probe warp-in spell: warp in a FREE probe within a pylon's power field, also 25 mana, no mineral cost, 1 supply but you can still cast it even when you "need to build more pylons". - mothership core removed; photon overcharge and mass recall given to nexus as spells. - time warp given to another unit. HT, perhaps.
I believe such a universal warp-in mechanic will give P the chance to fight back with the ability to instantly build an army like Z!
I have high hopes for LOTV, but I fear that they are going to have a hard time balancing the game with the proposed economy changes. I fear for Protoss the most, as they are going to have one hell of a time defending the 4-5 bases they need at a game time where they'd normally have at most 3 in HOTS.
Due to the warpgate mechanic removing defender's advantage, an army of warpgate units was made strictly weaker than an army of equal tier units from the other races in the mid and late game. Protoss compensated for this by only every fighting part of an army at a time (splitting up with forcefields), and by teching quickly to T3 splash (colossus mainly). Due to the extreme gas cost of getting lots of sentries // teching up and getting colossi (not to mention their lack of mobility), Protoss is more or less forced to keep all of their units in a deathball in order to protect these gas heavy units. This has always been quite bad for the game, as having an army that doubles in strength with the addition of a couple T3 units is bad game design (Needing T3 units to combat T1-T2 units is also bad game design). With this need for a deathball, Protoss has always been the weakest at being able to split their army into multiple chunks while remaining cost effective.
The Mothership core was introduced in HOTS to help Protoss with the issue of their immobile deathball, by enabling early access to both recall and photon overcharge for defense against multi-pronged harass. Recall also enabled Protoss to be out on the map with their expensive immobile army more aggressively (previously in WOL, moving out on the map generally either meant winning a fight, or losing everything, and most often the game afterwards). The problem with the Mothership core, is that it only ever really was a band-aid over more deep and fundamental design problems with the Protoss race. These fundamental problems being:
1) the inability to fight tech for tech and cost for cost over many small and spread out engagements. 2) mobility.
Through careful map design and the MSC band-aid (or through just all-inning) Protoss has been able to be successful despite these weaknesses, but the band-aid like the MSC will no longer be sufficient for a 4-5 base Toss at the same game time of a 3 base toss in HOTS. When you add into consideration the mobility of the speed medi-vac for Terran and the ability to break forcefields at Lair tech with the Ravager for Zerg, I can't see Protoss being anything other than "FUCKED" unless they get some heavy changes to their race. Protoss will need to be able to actually fight tech for tech and cost for cost in small engagements to have any chance of keeping up to the other races in expansions in LOTV. For this to happen, Protoss will need:
1) a T1.5 or T2 splash option 2) stronger gateway units 3) both.
Such changes will not only allow, but probably require Blizzard to change / nerf warp-gate, force-fields, and the colossus to compensate for the increased strength of T1-2 Protoss. While I feel the community would rejoice over such changes, I fear Blizzard will be unwilling to make them.
I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard overcomes these challenges in a clunky, round-a-bout way by either having very regimented maps with easily accessible 4-5 bases covered in ramps / choke points galore, or by giving Protoss a gas-heavy, tech-heavy option for defending locations from small attacks, that also happens to be completely hit or miss. (Makes me think of the disruptor... 300 gas... also robo bay tech... can blow up an entire 1-2 medi-vac force or miss everything). Imagine a world in which Protoss needs to tech up to disruptors fast at like the 10 minute mark so they can put them at all of their outlying bases for defense. Sounds... sooooo... terrible.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard doesn't even recognize the need for any changes until they are well into LOTV beta and Protoss is forced to 1-3 base all-in every game in order to win...........with people complaining like mad for something to be done........ and with Blizzard eyeing the win rate percentages on Beta ladder thinking to themselves "Well the numbers are balanced from Bronze to Gold league in these match-ups. Things seem to be ok for now."
Oh the fear. I want the more spread out, more action packed, more enjoyable game LOTV aims to be.... I just fear Blizzard will be too incompetent to implement the necessary changes correctly.
On November 26 2014 11:51 Zanzabarr wrote: I have high hopes for LOTV, but I fear that they are going to have a hard time balancing the game with the proposed economy changes. I fear for Protoss the most, as they are going to have one hell of a time defending the 4-5 bases they need at a game time where they'd normally have at most 3 in HOTS.
Due to the warpgate mechanic removing defender's advantage, an army of warpgate units was made strictly weaker than an army of equal tier units from the other races in the mid and late game. Protoss compensated for this by only every fighting part of an army at a time (splitting up with forcefields), and by teching quickly to T3 splash (colossus mainly). Due to the extreme gas cost of getting lots of sentries // teching up and getting colossi (not to mention their lack of mobility), Protoss is more or less forced to keep all of their units in a deathball in order to protect these gas heavy units. This has always been quite bad for the game, as having an army that doubles in strength with the addition of a couple T3 units is bad game design (Needing T3 units to combat T1-T2 units is also bad game design). With this need for a deathball, Protoss has always been the weakest at being able to split their army into multiple chunks while remaining cost effective.
The Mothership core was introduced in HOTS to help Protoss with the issue of their immobile deathball, by enabling early access to both recall and photon overcharge for defense against multi-pronged harass. Recall also enabled Protoss to be out on the map with their expensive immobile army more aggressively (previously in WOL, moving out on the map generally either meant winning a fight, or losing everything, and most often the game afterwards). The problem with the Mothership core, is that it only ever really was a band-aid over more deep and fundamental design problems with the Protoss race. These fundamental problems being:
1) the inability to fight tech for tech and cost for cost over many small and spread out engagements. 2) mobility.
Through careful map design and the MSC band-aid (or through just all-inning) Protoss has been able to be successful despite these weaknesses, but the band-aid like the MSC will no longer be sufficient for a 4-5 base Toss at the same game time of a 3 base toss in HOTS. When you add into consideration the mobility of the speed medi-vac for Terran and the ability to break forcefields at Lair tech with the Ravager for Zerg, I can't see Protoss being anything other than "FUCKED" unless they get some heavy changes to their race. Protoss will need to be able to actually fight tech for tech and cost for cost in small engagements to have any chance of keeping up to the other races in expansions in LOTV. For this to happen, Protoss will need a T2 splash option, stronger gateway units, or both. Such changes will not only allow, but probably require Blizzard to change / nerf warp-gate, force-fields, and the colossus to compensate for the increased strength of T1-2 Protoss. While I feel the community would rejoice over such changes, I fear Blizzard will be unwilling to make them.
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager.
I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt.
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager.
I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt.
Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts:
- remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank.
Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway?
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager.
I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt.
Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts:
- remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank.
Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway?
Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game.
And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager.
I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt.
Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts:
- remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank.
Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway?
Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game.
And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\
I think alot of ppl would accept it. Perfect time in lotv to not make it OP. New units, tweaked existing units.
And who knows, maybe differente economy. Blink-stalker wouldnt even be this strong if an early threat of oracle was this strong.
I am gonna take a chance here and say, its probably easy in lotv to not make stuff like this OP. Which it shouldnt be in the first place, bo wins, bo lose, and to strong all-ins are anyway very dull and most likely bad for the game.
Earler upgrades overall would be fine, even stimpack, maybe something for hydralisk etc.
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager.
I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt.
Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts:
- remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank.
Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway?
Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game.
And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\
I think alot of ppl would accept it. Perfect time in lotv to not make it OP. New units, tweaked existing units.
And who knows, maybe differente economy. Blink-stalker wouldnt even be this strong if an early threat of oracle was this strong.
I am gonna take a chance here and say, its probably easy in lotv to not make stuff like this OP. Which it shouldnt be in the first place, bo wins, bo lose, and to strong all-ins are anyway very dull and most likely bad for the game.
Earler upgrades overall would be fine, even stimpack, maybe something for hydralisk etc.
Upgrades have a reason for existence you need to think about: Upgrades delay units/abilities and allow the opponent/force the user time to transition. This makes it so the game happens in phases.
Now, it is impossible to say what would happen with faster blink and stimpack are to a large extend dependent on map design. Will it be easy to forcefield bio out/in? How vulnerable are mains to Blink? Will we rebalance the Stalkers fighting capabilities because a new gateway unit (Dragoon pl0x) takes over it's role in the late game? Will Marines be less of a powerful choice because Zerg and their Ravager can hold on against them well? Are Lurkers fast enough to deal with stim? Do we need Stim to take LONGER because of the Lurker timing? What happens to collosi? Will Protoss Air be more powerful and require additional upgrades?
So much we cannot conclude anything about as long as balance and map design are complete unknown factors.
That being said; I would -LOVE- to have a video release akin to the battle reports we received in HOTS. A scripted 1v1 of two different races. We can glean a lot of information about maps and initial balance from that.
To come back to your point; A lot of people would accept changes to upgrades. We should be open to anything. As long as there is a clear explanation for it. We shouldn't change stuff because we want to change stuff, we need a direction to go in.
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager.
I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt.
Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts:
- remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank.
Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway?
Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game.
And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\
Were Twilight Council removed, longer research time on psi storm won't be longer, but anyway, I admit that simplifying the templar tech branch and earlier blink research are bad ideas, but there must be some other way to make HT better as to diversify P's strategies.
EPT
