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On November 26 2014 22:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 21:16 -Celestial- wrote:On November 26 2014 13:08 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 12:34 Zanzabarr wrote:On November 26 2014 12:22 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager. I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt. Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts: - remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank. Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway? Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game. And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\ Were Twilight Council removed, longer research time on psi storm won't be longer, but anyway, I admit that simplifying the templar tech branch and earlier blink research are bad ideas, but there must be some other way to make HT better as to diversify P's strategies.
Mines to 80HP
OR
Psionic Storm buffed to deal + 10/20 vs Mechanical (Better vs Protoss as well, no change vs Z, but this has to come with a health buff to Vikings)
Would go a long way.
I want Templar viable in PvP tho :D
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On November 26 2014 22:12 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 22:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 21:16 -Celestial- wrote:On November 26 2014 13:08 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 12:34 Zanzabarr wrote:On November 26 2014 12:22 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager. I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt. Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts: - remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank. Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway? Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game. And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\ Were Twilight Council removed, longer research time on psi storm won't be longer, but anyway, I admit that simplifying the templar tech branch and earlier blink research are bad ideas, but there must be some other way to make HT better as to diversify P's strategies. Mines to 90HP OR Psionic Storm buffed to deal + 10/20 vs Mechanical (Better vs Protoss as well, no change vs Z, but this has to come with a health buff to Vikings) Would go a long way. I want Templar viable in PvP tho :D
I think buffing storm vs mech is a bad idea because it would hard counter the light units of mech and would force players to build to stronger ones, hellions and cyclones should be able to move around without being 1 shoted by a storm/force fields combo, for templars to become a more viable strategy in LotV they should be a more mobile force and a less deathball-y one, back in the time when kaydaryn amulet still existed the strenght of templar wasn't the storm itself but the fact that they could come anywhere at any time, with the new warp prism I think 2 changes would help storm greatly:
1.- faster templar, flanking templar are already a very strong tactic, if the templar were to be faster good templar control would make templar strats really strong, plus the combo with warp prism
2.- Templar should have an upgrade so they don't get affected by the warpgate nerf, that way protoss players would rather warp templars around the map an use them to harras/drop/flank instead of simply warp them with their deathball
Other viable solution that I've thinking for point 2 is to make an upgrade so that warp prism could warp units faster that you would with pylons, that way the protoss army would have an easier time being spread out instead of in a deathball and it would make warp prism more useful and would give incentive for protoss players to have more warp prism to micro their units.
After all I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't make things stronger but more mobile, the solution to the fast units shouldn't be able to make everything 1 shot everything
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On November 26 2014 22:12 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 22:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 21:16 -Celestial- wrote:On November 26 2014 13:08 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 12:34 Zanzabarr wrote:On November 26 2014 12:22 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager. I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt. Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts: - remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank. Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway? Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game. And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\ Were Twilight Council removed, longer research time on psi storm won't be longer, but anyway, I admit that simplifying the templar tech branch and earlier blink research are bad ideas, but there must be some other way to make HT better as to diversify P's strategies. Mines to 90HPOR Psionic Storm buffed to deal + 10/20 vs Mechanical (Better vs Protoss as well, no change vs Z, but this has to come with a health buff to Vikings) Would go a long way. I want Templar viable in PvP tho :D
Mines already got 90 HP.
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PvT is already cool in it's lategame, with HT's vs Ghosts and defensive structures.
Would love it, if it was the same in the mid game with HT's/Zealots vs WidowMine+Bio
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On November 26 2014 22:55 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 22:12 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 26 2014 22:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 21:16 -Celestial- wrote:On November 26 2014 13:08 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 12:34 Zanzabarr wrote:On November 26 2014 12:22 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager. I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt. Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts: - remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank. Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway? Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game. And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\ Were Twilight Council removed, longer research time on psi storm won't be longer, but anyway, I admit that simplifying the templar tech branch and earlier blink research are bad ideas, but there must be some other way to make HT better as to diversify P's strategies. Mines to 90HPOR Psionic Storm buffed to deal + 10/20 vs Mechanical (Better vs Protoss as well, no change vs Z, but this has to come with a health buff to Vikings) Would go a long way. I want Templar viable in PvP tho :D Mines already got 90 HP.
80 ofc T_T
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On November 26 2014 22:48 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 22:12 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 26 2014 22:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 21:16 -Celestial- wrote:On November 26 2014 13:08 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 12:34 Zanzabarr wrote:On November 26 2014 12:22 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager. I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt. Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts: - remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank. Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway? Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game. And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\ Were Twilight Council removed, longer research time on psi storm won't be longer, but anyway, I admit that simplifying the templar tech branch and earlier blink research are bad ideas, but there must be some other way to make HT better as to diversify P's strategies. Mines to 90HP OR Psionic Storm buffed to deal + 10/20 vs Mechanical (Better vs Protoss as well, no change vs Z, but this has to come with a health buff to Vikings) Would go a long way. I want Templar viable in PvP tho :D I think buffing storm vs mech is a bad idea because it would hard counter the light units of mech and would force players to build to stronger ones, hellions and cyclones should be able to move around without being 1 shoted by a storm/force fields combo, for templars to become a more viable strategy in LotV they should be a more mobile force and a less deathball-y one, back in the time when kaydaryn amulet still existed the strenght of templar wasn't the storm itself but the fact that they could come anywhere at any time, with the new warp prism I think 2 changes would help storm greatly: Hellions and Cyclones should NEVER take full damage from a storm. And if you manage to get forcefielded and stormed and not trade efficiently, shame on you ^_^1.- faster templar, flanking templar are already a very strong tactic, if the templar were to be faster good templar control would make templar strats really strong, plus the combo with warp prism I prefer the positional handicaps. Templar are the only thing slowing the deathball down. Despite what Protoss players seem to say a lot, the upgraded deathball moves at a pretty large speed (collosi cliffwalk, the rest has high base speed). IU'd rather have stronger, more immobile. 2.- Templar should have an upgrade so they don't get affected by the warpgate nerf, that way protoss players would rather warp templars around the map an use them to harras/drop/flank instead of simply warp them with their deathball Err... It doesn't matter whether a templar is warped in with 8 sec+double damage or with 5 sec, if you warp in templar and they're under attack, they'll die. Don't exaggerate the WG nerfOther viable solution that I've thinking for point 2 is to make an upgrade so that warp prism could warp units faster that you would with pylons, that way the protoss army would have an easier time being spread out instead of in a deathball and it would make warp prism more useful and would give incentive for protoss players to have more warp prism to micro their units. What.Have you ever had a warp prism warp zealots into your base? That shit's ridiculous. After all I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't make things stronger but more mobile, the solution to the fast units shouldn't be able to make everything 1 shot everything
We clearly have differing opinions on this. I'll explain why I prefer mine of yours  .
There's different forms of mobility. For example: Zerg is superbly fast. Because Speedlings move at something like 6 speed, the Zerg army has an easy time moving around and using mobility to gain a favorable position. Terran can split the army up into small segments and go for a guerilla like fighting style. The army is efficient enough in small numbers that it forces the opponent to react with usually more supply than Terran used.
Then comes Protoss. Protoss can amove their army from base 1 to base 3. Possibly leave HT/Stalker to defend the main. But once Terran unloads, Protoss needs a far superior force to clean it up. Protoss is immobile because it needs spells and good positioning to fight.
Your solution to this immobility factor is buffing warpgate and making Templar faster. What you are in fact doing, is making the army faster and much easier to keep together. This can only result in TvP becoming much harder as Terran loses some of it's core advantages if the Protoss army moves faster (unstimmed Terran is already slower than Protoss!).
Instead, what we should want (especially with the more bases ideology, given Protoss will now be more spread out) is to allow Protoss to pose a threat on multiple fronts, but also be capable of holding their own. Making the deathball faster doesn't do that. The deathball needs to be very weak to new toys that are introduced in the game (Ravager, Lurker, BlinkCruiser). Protoss deathballs clump, but the opposing races don't have the AoE to punish.
We need A) options for Protoss to dedicate a small chunk of supply to agression (under 20 supply harassment hardly ever does anything), B) be capable of defending multiple, spread out bases, and C) make the deathball harder to assemble and control.
This might be a bit of an unstructured ramble.
TL;DR
Protoss design sucks. Need changes.
As a sidenote, the whole post you wrote came across to me as Protoss going deathball because they're lazy (warp templar on location instead of at one spot and spread, buffing against lazyness is the last thing we should ever do).
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On November 26 2014 23:04 ejozl wrote:
PvT is already cool in it's lategame, with HT's vs Ghosts and defensive structures.
Would love it, if it was the same in the mid game with HT's/Zealots vs WidowMine+Bio
Defensive structures? Terran defense costs supply.
I don't like the situation that can occur where Protoss defends bases with cannons and templar for and almost set and forget defense while Terran needs to relocate the army constantly which is very taxing on multitask and very hard to properly control as amove v amove, Protoss wins the ZealotDTvsBio trade every day.
The HTZealot vs BioMine doesn't occur because Zealots are SO weak to Mines and Protoss has no 25 mineral fodder to throw in there. A Mine that fires against Protoss is ALWAYS cost effective. Add to that that the Protoss army has no range (Storm is 150 mana per mine, good deal if you ask the Terran guy) and Mines become nigh impossible to deal with.
I've seen Immortal Zealot Templar work to some extend, but it is much harder to acquire.
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On November 26 2014 03:29 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 02:30 SuperYo1000 wrote:On November 26 2014 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote:Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay.  No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units. There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now. PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection. Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them. ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly Hmm, how about tempest being redesigned into colossus's replacement with massive AoE damage against clumps of low-HP ground units like marine? You see, both tempest and carrier have shown up in the demo video and the pvz showmatch, but apparently one of them has to go, otherwise one of them has to be redesigned, so it's possible.
Flying siege tanks with 20+ range and no deployment time? That'd be absolutely ridiculous. It would single-handedly hard-counter everything terran has except siege tanks, which already get hard-countered by the immortal.
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Sorry, I didn't read through this entire thread but does anyone know why this game will be stand alone?
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On November 27 2014 00:13 c0ldfusion wrote:
Sorry, I didn't read through this entire thread but does anyone know why this game will be stand alone?
So new players don't have to buy 3 titles would be my guess
I just hope they won't sell it for 60 bucks then -.-
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On November 27 2014 00:04 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 03:29 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 02:30 SuperYo1000 wrote:On November 26 2014 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote:Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay. No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units. There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now. PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection. Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them. ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly Hmm, how about tempest being redesigned into colossus's replacement with massive AoE damage against clumps of low-HP ground units like marine? You see, both tempest and carrier have shown up in the demo video and the pvz showmatch, but apparently one of them has to go, otherwise one of them has to be redesigned, so it's possible. Flying siege tanks with 20+ range? That'd be absolutely ridiculous. It would single-handedly hard-counter everything terran has except siege tanks, which already get hard-countered by the immortal.
Would it? New Tempests cannot shoot up.
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On November 27 2014 00:23 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 00:04 maartendq wrote:On November 26 2014 03:29 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 02:30 SuperYo1000 wrote:On November 26 2014 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote:Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay. No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units. There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now. PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection. Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them. ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly Hmm, how about tempest being redesigned into colossus's replacement with massive AoE damage against clumps of low-HP ground units like marine? You see, both tempest and carrier have shown up in the demo video and the pvz showmatch, but apparently one of them has to go, otherwise one of them has to be redesigned, so it's possible. Flying siege tanks with 20+ range? That'd be absolutely ridiculous. It would single-handedly hard-counter everything terran has except siege tanks, which already get hard-countered by the immortal. Would it? New Tempests cannot shoot up.
Tempests would become just as problematic as colossi then: just two or three of them would already force terran into building vikings, which are dead weight as soon as the Tempests are cleared. Considering the huge range on the tempests, they would arguably be even harder to deal with than colossi already are, while remaining equally boring and one-dimensional.
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On November 27 2014 00:29 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 00:23 -Archangel- wrote:On November 27 2014 00:04 maartendq wrote:On November 26 2014 03:29 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 02:30 SuperYo1000 wrote:On November 26 2014 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On November 24 2014 04:58 TedCruz2016 wrote:Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay. No. The reason why the "world of multiplayer games" significantly involves the Colossus is because if you don't get Colossi you get absolutely massacred by Marines. The Colossus is only necessary because Marines are as they are compared with gateway units. There's a few secondary points to be made about other units that would be cripplingly painful to deal with without Colossi but the key culprit is the Marine. High level players don't make Colossi because they're cool or "under the spotlight". They make them because they die otherwise, especially with how weak Templar are right now. PvT essentially revolves around Marine interactions and whether or not the Marine ball survives or not. Protoss builds Marine counters and tries to protect them. Terran tries to prevent those counters being built and builds counter-Marine counters and then tries to either get past or bully through the layers of protection. Reavers would make an interesting alternative but I fear that it'd either end up way OP or just nowhere near enough to deal with Marines. Very hard to balance such an extreme unit with SC2's engine. Nice as they would be to see...I foresee a lot of rage in the balancing process for them. ya, very true. Its all in response the jack of all trade unit the marine. Maybe bringing back dragoon could soft counter marines if micro'd correctly Hmm, how about tempest being redesigned into colossus's replacement with massive AoE damage against clumps of low-HP ground units like marine? You see, both tempest and carrier have shown up in the demo video and the pvz showmatch, but apparently one of them has to go, otherwise one of them has to be redesigned, so it's possible. Flying siege tanks with 20+ range? That'd be absolutely ridiculous. It would single-handedly hard-counter everything terran has except siege tanks, which already get hard-countered by the immortal. Would it? New Tempests cannot shoot up. Tempests would become just as problematic as colossi then: just two or three of them would already force terran into building vikings, which are dead weight as soon as the Tempests are cleared. Considering the huge range on the tempests, they would arguably be even harder to deal with than colossi already are, while remaining equally boring and one-dimensional.
Lotv will change things. Cyclone might get a 12range versus air or more for example. No reason to conclude things.
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Just because people have complained about how Protoss can/can't defend bases with Blizz's new idea--that is false.
Blizz's new Econ only shortens the timeline, it does not increase the number of needed bases. So you still defend 3 bases, but your third moves constantly and your army has to reposition accordingly. It is only if we go back to a BW style system that the game gets broken because Protoss can't defend more than 3 bases adequately.
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On November 27 2014 00:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Just because people have complained about how Protoss can/can't defend bases with Blizz's new idea--that is false.
Blizz's new Econ only shortens the timeline, it does not increase the number of needed bases. So you still defend 3 bases, but your third moves constantly and your army has to reposition accordingly. It is only if we go back to a BW style system that the game gets broken because Protoss can't defend more than 3 bases adequately.
Still need to defend infrastructure and gas mining in the main/natural though. And for zerg the additional bases might also be difficult to defend due to lack of creep spread(?).
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On November 27 2014 00:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Just because people have complained about how Protoss can/can't defend bases with Blizz's new idea--that is false.
Blizz's new Econ only shortens the timeline, it does not increase the number of needed bases. So you still defend 3 bases, but your third moves constantly and your army has to reposition accordingly. It is only if we go back to a BW style system that the game gets broken because Protoss can't defend more than 3 bases adequately.
Well, you cannot give up the main and natural base ever with all the setup there. So you have to defend those 2bases + any amount of mining bases. In a 5base scenario this means your main+natural have to be defended, but they don't mine. The other 3bases have to be defended because they mine.
The game will change a lot - but I fully agree with everyone that the game has to change a lot to allow Protoss to defend that many bases that early (bases also have to be taken earlier to keep on mining from 2-3bases)
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On November 26 2014 23:45 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 22:48 Lexender wrote:On November 26 2014 22:12 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 26 2014 22:10 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 21:16 -Celestial- wrote:On November 26 2014 13:08 TedCruz2016 wrote:On November 26 2014 12:34 Zanzabarr wrote:On November 26 2014 12:22 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Blink stalkers, chargelots and sentries have no problem to handle T's and Z's T1 units. The problem is the poor design of P's T2 units - immortal is highly immobile and very expensive, void ray is also very slow and useless after the significant nerf on its ability, and pheonix can't attack ground unit. All of them heavily counter specific units, but that makes them weak in general and limits their use, that's why P has to jump to T3 units.
Blink and charge are both T2 upgrades, are quite long research, and you'll only going to have time to get one of them before mid-late game generally. Pure gateway has a hell of a time against T1-1.5 Terran and Zerg units with some minor upgrades (stim / speed). Outside of hard all-ins, these units aren't going to compete outside of the aforementioned situations where you only fight a small portion of an army due to good forcefield placement. Such situations aren't going to be nearly as common with split armies across more bases, and the dreaded ravager. I'm all for stronger T2 options to compensate, even if it means nerfs in other areas. As it stands now though, without better T2 // stronger gateway units // a new gateway unit altogether, Toss is going to be in for a world of hurt. Then the solution is earlier blink and charge upgrade and redesigned T2 units from stargate and robotic facility. My thoughts: - remove twilight council from the templar tech branch; put blink and charge upgrades in cybernetics core with longer research time; - longer build time of templar archive and dark shrine; longer research time of psi storm; - give back void ray's orginal prismatic beam (passive skill, increasing damage when continuously attack one single unit over a period of time); - immortal's hardened shield is replaced with a new skill that you need to manually activate, but according to some feedbacks, it makes immortal even stronger against tanks and some other units, so there's more works to do. It could become a high-mobile short-range siege unit, good at defense and map control like tank. Stay positive and optimistic. Nonetheless, P is the thematic race of LotV! How worse could it be anyway? Nobody is going to accept an earlier Blink upgrade because it just leads to absurdly strong Blink all-ins every game. And longer research on Psi Storm would potentially just make Templar openings even more unviable and railroad the "Colossi first" mindset even more. :-\ Were Twilight Council removed, longer research time on psi storm won't be longer, but anyway, I admit that simplifying the templar tech branch and earlier blink research are bad ideas, but there must be some other way to make HT better as to diversify P's strategies. Mines to 90HP OR Psionic Storm buffed to deal + 10/20 vs Mechanical (Better vs Protoss as well, no change vs Z, but this has to come with a health buff to Vikings) Would go a long way. I want Templar viable in PvP tho :D I think buffing storm vs mech is a bad idea because it would hard counter the light units of mech and would force players to build to stronger ones, hellions and cyclones should be able to move around without being 1 shoted by a storm/force fields combo, for templars to become a more viable strategy in LotV they should be a more mobile force and a less deathball-y one, back in the time when kaydaryn amulet still existed the strenght of templar wasn't the storm itself but the fact that they could come anywhere at any time, with the new warp prism I think 2 changes would help storm greatly: Hellions and Cyclones should NEVER take full damage from a storm. And if you manage to get forcefielded and stormed and not trade efficiently, shame on you ^_^1.- faster templar, flanking templar are already a very strong tactic, if the templar were to be faster good templar control would make templar strats really strong, plus the combo with warp prism I prefer the positional handicaps. Templar are the only thing slowing the deathball down. Despite what Protoss players seem to say a lot, the upgraded deathball moves at a pretty large speed (collosi cliffwalk, the rest has high base speed). IU'd rather have stronger, more immobile. 2.- Templar should have an upgrade so they don't get affected by the warpgate nerf, that way protoss players would rather warp templars around the map an use them to harras/drop/flank instead of simply warp them with their deathball Err... It doesn't matter whether a templar is warped in with 8 sec+double damage or with 5 sec, if you warp in templar and they're under attack, they'll die. Don't exaggerate the WG nerfOther viable solution that I've thinking for point 2 is to make an upgrade so that warp prism could warp units faster that you would with pylons, that way the protoss army would have an easier time being spread out instead of in a deathball and it would make warp prism more useful and would give incentive for protoss players to have more warp prism to micro their units. What.Have you ever had a warp prism warp zealots into your base? That shit's ridiculous. After all I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't make things stronger but more mobile, the solution to the fast units shouldn't be able to make everything 1 shot everything We clearly have differing opinions on this. I'll explain why I prefer mine of yours . There's different forms of mobility. For example: Zerg is superbly fast. Because Speedlings move at something like 6 speed, the Zerg army has an easy time moving around and using mobility to gain a favorable position. Terran can split the army up into small segments and go for a guerilla like fighting style. The army is efficient enough in small numbers that it forces the opponent to react with usually more supply than Terran used. Then comes Protoss. Protoss can amove their army from base 1 to base 3. Possibly leave HT/Stalker to defend the main. But once Terran unloads, Protoss needs a far superior force to clean it up. Protoss is immobile because it needs spells and good positioning to fight. Your solution to this immobility factor is buffing warpgate and making Templar faster. What you are in fact doing, is making the army faster and much easier to keep together. This can only result in TvP becoming much harder as Terran loses some of it's core advantages if the Protoss army moves faster (unstimmed Terran is already slower than Protoss!). Instead, what we should want (especially with the more bases ideology, given Protoss will now be more spread out) is to allow Protoss to pose a threat on multiple fronts, but also be capable of holding their own. Making the deathball faster doesn't do that. The deathball needs to be very weak to new toys that are introduced in the game (Ravager, Lurker, BlinkCruiser). Protoss deathballs clump, but the opposing races don't have the AoE to punish. We need A) options for Protoss to dedicate a small chunk of supply to agression (under 20 supply harassment hardly ever does anything), B) be capable of defending multiple, spread out bases, and C) make the deathball harder to assemble and control. This might be a bit of an unstructured ramble. TL;DR Protoss design sucks. Need changes. As a sidenote, the whole post you wrote came across to me as Protoss going deathball because they're lazy (warp templar on location instead of at one spot and spread, buffing against lazyness is the last thing we should ever do).
Your entire argument rest in the fact that protoss is going to work in the same way that it does now, I based in the fact that it would not, it all depends, I gave my idea in the fact that protoss is not going to work in the same way, I said the thing about templars addresing only templars, but with nerfed collossi, disruptor and whatever new unit they end up coming with, I just think HT drops are cool and that there should be a good reason to make more warp prism, specially because right now both medivacs w/ mech and warp prism altough good ideas might become ultimate useless because players would just want to make more units instead of wasting supply and resources on units that don't attack.
Also I think air toss needs some work, I have no idea what they intended to do with tempest ._. I think a lot of what comes will depend in what is the new unit, if the unit allows protoss to not depend so much in their AoE and instead use these units to hold their ground, but that would first need some work on the disruptor, the collosus and maybe the marauder (as a terran I really hate what marauders did to variety of the game, but I doubt this will happen), as right now we could add a lot of cool stuff but if the current interactions exist as they are everything else would just become gimmicky shit
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On November 27 2014 00:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 00:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Just because people have complained about how Protoss can/can't defend bases with Blizz's new idea--that is false.
Blizz's new Econ only shortens the timeline, it does not increase the number of needed bases. So you still defend 3 bases, but your third moves constantly and your army has to reposition accordingly. It is only if we go back to a BW style system that the game gets broken because Protoss can't defend more than 3 bases adequately. Well, you cannot give up the main and natural base ever with all the setup there. So you have to defend those 2bases + any amount of mining bases. In a 5base scenario this means your main+natural have to be defended, but they don't mine. The other 3bases have to be defended because they mine. The game will change a lot - but I fully agree with everyone that the game has to change a lot to allow Protoss to defend that many bases that early (bases also have to be taken earlier to keep on mining from 2-3bases)
No disagreement from me, just want to point out that that is what is happening in HotS right now, just slower. In that environment Protoss has a slight advantage in that they can build cannons plus mothership to return to their main in case if a doom drop. Changing mining time so that it's more efficient to mine 4+ bases than 3 bases is what fucks Protoss.
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On November 27 2014 00:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 00:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Just because people have complained about how Protoss can/can't defend bases with Blizz's new idea--that is false.
Blizz's new Econ only shortens the timeline, it does not increase the number of needed bases. So you still defend 3 bases, but your third moves constantly and your army has to reposition accordingly. It is only if we go back to a BW style system that the game gets broken because Protoss can't defend more than 3 bases adequately. Well, you cannot give up the main and natural base ever with all the setup there. So you have to defend those 2bases + any amount of mining bases. In a 5base scenario this means your main+natural have to be defended, but they don't mine. The other 3bases have to be defended because they mine. The game will change a lot - but I fully agree with everyone that the game has to change a lot to allow Protoss to defend that many bases that early (bases also have to be taken earlier to keep on mining from 2-3bases)
How are Cannons and a Mothership Core not enough for that? Protoss arguably has the best static defense in the game already.
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Herc looks fucking dumb... Looks heavier than a reaper/zergling shitty design why not a moving land transport that lets infantry shoot and move while loaded onto it? Kinda like a weakened mobile bunker
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EPT
