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On November 21 2014 01:46 Salteador Neo wrote:
^ But Reaver AOE damage (potential) is much greater than the sc2 tank, isn't it?
I'm still not sure the proposed buff to tanks, as in being able to be dropped in siege, makes them more interesting as harass than just a bunch of stim marines. Those things have beast DPS and are fast to chase some workers down, when they get pulled.
With that said, I'm also sure there will be some form of slight delay added.
It's a bad idea to harass with tanks when marines are better. But it's very much cool to bring 1-2 tanks with your bio ball and be able to siege as needed.
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Guys, this is LotV. The era of BW is long gone. Reaver's role has been replaced with colossus and the latter is not bad. Among all the LotV changes, P's drop has got a tremendous buff. It is almost impossible to defend a prism drop without air units, so why can't T have one? Picking up units from a distance is not an accommodation for low-level players. It makes a huge difference. It allows prism to pick up units at a safe position out of spores, queens, marines and turrets' reach and taking no or little damage, which wouldn't be possible in WoL and HotS.
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On November 21 2014 06:11 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 01:46 Salteador Neo wrote:
^ But Reaver AOE damage (potential) is much greater than the sc2 tank, isn't it?
I'm still not sure the proposed buff to tanks, as in being able to be dropped in siege, makes them more interesting as harass than just a bunch of stim marines. Those things have beast DPS and are fast to chase some workers down, when they get pulled.
With that said, I'm also sure there will be some form of slight delay added. It's a bad idea to harass with tanks when marines are better. But it's very much cool to bring 1-2 tanks with your bio ball and be able to siege as needed.
Really? Splash + Instant DMG + Medivac boost. Marines might have more DPS, but those are just numbers, Medivac Tank harass has alot more potential to do significant dmg since you pretty much have to respond to it with Anti Air units rather then ground units. Especially in TvT, where a medivac and Tank Harass pretty much would destroy any Bio Response to stop the harass.
Now if you just want to drop and not look at your crap, then yeah Marines.
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That's the direction. A transition from bio to mech, or at least bio+tank.
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On November 21 2014 11:42 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Guys, this is LotV. The era of BW is long gone. Reaver's role has been replaced with colossus and the latter is not bad. Among all the LotV changes, P's drop has got a tremendous buff. It is almost impossible to defend a prism drop without air units, so why can't T have one? Picking up units from a distance is not an accommodation for low-level players. It makes a huge difference. It allows prism to pick up units at a safe position out of spores, queens, marines and turrets' reach and taking no or little damage, which wouldn't be possible in WoL and HotS.
The biggest problem with the colossus is mobility. Having a long range AoE unit that moves the same speed as the rest of your army doesn't fit into the Starcraft philosophy of big-impact units requiring better control to use well. The reaver fit this design because you had to put it in a shuttle, you couldn't just group your reavers with the rest of your army. The colossus is more mobile and easier to micro than similar units like the siege tank, the lurker, and the reaver.
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On November 21 2014 12:17 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 11:42 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Guys, this is LotV. The era of BW is long gone. Reaver's role has been replaced with colossus and the latter is not bad. Among all the LotV changes, P's drop has got a tremendous buff. It is almost impossible to defend a prism drop without air units, so why can't T have one? Picking up units from a distance is not an accommodation for low-level players. It makes a huge difference. It allows prism to pick up units at a safe position out of spores, queens, marines and turrets' reach and taking no or little damage, which wouldn't be possible in WoL and HotS. The biggest problem with the colossus is mobility. Having a long range AoE unit that moves the same speed as the rest of your army doesn't fit into the Starcraft philosophy of big-impact units requiring better control to use well. The reaver fit this design because you had to put it in a shuttle, you couldn't just group your reavers with the rest of your army. The colossus is more mobile and easier to micro than similar units like the siege tank, the lurker, and the reaver.
That's why T really needs a major buff on tanks' mobility such as the pickup. Z has viper to deal with colossus, while T has to pop a lot of vikings. That shouldn't be the only solution.
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On November 21 2014 12:09 TedCruz2016 wrote:
That's the direction. A transition from bio to mech, or at least bio+tank.
Its not about potential damage, its about cost effective damage.
Its about the difference between spending 100 gas worth of harass vs 225 gas worth of harass.
I can see it as a late game harass transition, harass with 3+2 supply worth of units instead of 8+2 supply worth of units. But that's a different discussion.
Early game? Too gas heavy.
Midgame? Maybe--but upgrades are a priority.
Late game? Hellz yeahz.
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According to an analysis of all the LotV changes on Youtube, the change is definitely positive in TvP and TvZ matches. The only concern is TvT in which this tank drop will be abused as it spares you the effort to deploy tanks at strategic positions. You can just drop them at anywhere. I think it will probably be balanced by a viking or a raven buff.
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On November 21 2014 13:20 TedCruz2016 wrote:
According to an analysis of all the LotV changes on Youtube, the change is definitely positive in TvP and TvZ matches. The only concern is TvT in which this tank drop will be abused as it spares you the effort to deploy tanks at strategic positions. You can just drop them at anywhere. I think it will probably be balanced by a viking or a raven buff.
The biggest problem in tvt is already doom dropping that makes many games just end because you missed that drop.
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On November 22 2014 22:07 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 13:20 TedCruz2016 wrote:
According to an analysis of all the LotV changes on Youtube, the change is definitely positive in TvP and TvZ matches. The only concern is TvT in which this tank drop will be abused as it spares you the effort to deploy tanks at strategic positions. You can just drop them at anywhere. I think it will probably be balanced by a viking or a raven buff. The biggest problem in tvt is already doom dropping that makes many games just end because you missed that drop.
There's really no incentive for T to normalize other strategies as long as marines and marauders can be quickly healed by medivac while other units are slow and unable to heal themselves.
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On November 21 2014 13:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 12:09 TedCruz2016 wrote:
That's the direction. A transition from bio to mech, or at least bio+tank. Its not about potential damage, its about cost effective damage. Its about the difference between spending 100 gas worth of harass vs 225 gas worth of harass. I can see it as a late game harass transition, harass with 3+2 supply worth of units instead of 8+2 supply worth of units. But that's a different discussion. Early game? Too gas heavy. Midgame? Maybe--but upgrades are a priority. Late game? Hellz yeahz.
Not at all - you're missing the point that these units are already being built regardless. So it's hard to say it's too gas heavy when you're already popping out medivacs and tanks, or at the very least have the ability to do so without requiring extra research.
TvP is a current exception to that, but there's always potential to do other things, such as forgo stim for a longer period of time.
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On November 22 2014 22:07 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 13:20 TedCruz2016 wrote:
According to an analysis of all the LotV changes on Youtube, the change is definitely positive in TvP and TvZ matches. The only concern is TvT in which this tank drop will be abused as it spares you the effort to deploy tanks at strategic positions. You can just drop them at anywhere. I think it will probably be balanced by a viking or a raven buff. The biggest problem in tvt is already doom dropping that makes many games just end because you missed that drop.
What's funny is TvT was all about drops. You left an absolute minimal amount of tanks on the front line, and all your other units were just loaded into medivacs at all times. You'd rush an area, drop everything out, and siege.
It was countered by the fact that the opponent could do the exact same thing over your army (bum rush with mass dropship). You needed turrets to weaken the incoming force before they dropped, but other than that, it was pretty sick imo.
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On November 23 2014 04:23 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 13:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 21 2014 12:09 TedCruz2016 wrote:
That's the direction. A transition from bio to mech, or at least bio+tank. Its not about potential damage, its about cost effective damage. Its about the difference between spending 100 gas worth of harass vs 225 gas worth of harass. I can see it as a late game harass transition, harass with 3+2 supply worth of units instead of 8+2 supply worth of units. But that's a different discussion. Early game? Too gas heavy. Midgame? Maybe--but upgrades are a priority. Late game? Hellz yeahz. Not at all - you're missing the point that these units are already being built regardless. So it's hard to say it's too gas heavy when you're already popping out medivacs and tanks, or at the very least have the ability to do so without requiring extra research. TvP is a current exception to that, but there's always potential to do other things, such as forgo stim for a longer period of time.
No, you're misunderstanding me.
At 225 gas you can't really do it as an early game tactic since you'll end up doing 35 damage to some scvs and die from lack of any units to defend yourself with.
You can technically do it during the midgame transition by delaying stim/shields/upgrades/etc... but that's a personal choice and you *are* losing out on something.
Once you get to the late game 3-4 base scenarios where you can start being more flexible with your production choices, then I say Hellz yeahz.
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On November 23 2014 07:56 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 04:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 21 2014 13:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 21 2014 12:09 TedCruz2016 wrote:
That's the direction. A transition from bio to mech, or at least bio+tank. Its not about potential damage, its about cost effective damage. Its about the difference between spending 100 gas worth of harass vs 225 gas worth of harass. I can see it as a late game harass transition, harass with 3+2 supply worth of units instead of 8+2 supply worth of units. But that's a different discussion. Early game? Too gas heavy. Midgame? Maybe--but upgrades are a priority. Late game? Hellz yeahz. Not at all - you're missing the point that these units are already being built regardless. So it's hard to say it's too gas heavy when you're already popping out medivacs and tanks, or at the very least have the ability to do so without requiring extra research. TvP is a current exception to that, but there's always potential to do other things, such as forgo stim for a longer period of time. No, you're misunderstanding me. At 225 gas you can't really do it as an early game tactic since you'll end up doing 35 damage to some scvs and die from lack of any units to defend yourself with. You can technically do it during the midgame transition by delaying stim/shields/upgrades/etc... but that's a personal choice and you *are* losing out on something. Once you get to the late game 3-4 base scenarios where you can start being more flexible with your production choices, then I say Hellz yeahz.
That depends on the goal of a drop harassment. If the goal is to destroy a base or snipe a forge/engineering bay/evolution chamber, a 4-marauder drop would do a better job than a 8-marine drop, and the cost of that is 200 gas, which is not much cheaper. Apparently, two sieged tanks cannot destroy a base quicker than 8 marauders, but the purpose of sieged tank drop is to increase tank's mobility, not just giving a new option of drop harassment. On large maps, tanks won't slow down the whole army anymore. They can be dropped at strategic positions (highgrounds/lowgrounds) in a frontal assault against P's deathball or Z's lings+muta; when retreating, they can also be picked up while stimmed marines run away on the ground. It allows both medivac and tank to outrun muta, speedlings and other high-speed units.
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On November 22 2014 22:07 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 13:20 TedCruz2016 wrote:
According to an analysis of all the LotV changes on Youtube, the change is definitely positive in TvP and TvZ matches. The only concern is TvT in which this tank drop will be abused as it spares you the effort to deploy tanks at strategic positions. You can just drop them at anywhere. I think it will probably be balanced by a viking or a raven buff. The biggest problem in tvt is already doom dropping that makes many games just end because you missed that drop.
people need to start putting a couple mines in the main :D
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4713 Posts
On November 21 2014 12:27 TedCruz2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 12:17 Cheren wrote:On November 21 2014 11:42 TedCruz2016 wrote:
Guys, this is LotV. The era of BW is long gone. Reaver's role has been replaced with colossus and the latter is not bad. Among all the LotV changes, P's drop has got a tremendous buff. It is almost impossible to defend a prism drop without air units, so why can't T have one? Picking up units from a distance is not an accommodation for low-level players. It makes a huge difference. It allows prism to pick up units at a safe position out of spores, queens, marines and turrets' reach and taking no or little damage, which wouldn't be possible in WoL and HotS. The biggest problem with the colossus is mobility. Having a long range AoE unit that moves the same speed as the rest of your army doesn't fit into the Starcraft philosophy of big-impact units requiring better control to use well. The reaver fit this design because you had to put it in a shuttle, you couldn't just group your reavers with the rest of your army. The colossus is more mobile and easier to micro than similar units like the siege tank, the lurker, and the reaver. That's why T really needs a major buff on tanks' mobility such as the pickup. Z has viper to deal with colossus, while T has to pop a lot of vikings. That shouldn't be the only solution.
No, we don't need more mobility buffs for everything. We need more well designed units with clear strengths and weaknesses. The colossus is a terribly designed unit. Moves at the same speed as the rest of the army, has great mobility due to unit and cliffwalking, has long range and aoe damage. Its only weakness is that Blizzard added an artificial exception to the unit so air to air attacks work against it, however this had the detrimental side effect of forcing a particular kind of design on most air units and removing almost all meaningful air to air interactions.
The colossus is a terrible unit in every way, its one of the most boring and nearly universally hated and not only is it in itself terrible but it forced some awful design upon most air units.
The siege tank is awesome because its a positional unit, it has clear strengths, awesome aoe damage at long range but clear weaknesses, low mobility. The only reason they suck now is because Blizzard sort of designed everything to counter them. Though I must admit tanks getting the reaver treatment is sort of funny and ironic and I won't ever let protosses forget what awesomeness they turned in for a pile of crap.
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Well said. The terrible side effect that you've just mentioned is the biggest problem. Colossus' long range, splash damage and relatively high moving speed have made it a dominating ground unit, far more powerful than its 6-supply counterparts in T and Z (thor and ultralisk). However, notwithstanding the colossus's poor design, it could be crashed by well-positioned tanks, but since tanks are countered by everything, as you said, there's nothing else that T can do but mass vikings. It really needs to have some other great weaknesses so it can be countered by T and Z's GROUND units.
Air units, on the other hand, are heavily affected by the maps. Just imagine what viking, phoenix and corrupters can do on a map that has a thousand small islands and four large ones as the starting spots that are completely isolated. Blizzard should make a couple of maps like that if it wants some awesome air-to-air interactions.
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Yeah seriously, since beta the colossus was one of the most hated units, besides force fields and fungals (anti micro units) and against a colossus not much micro potential exists as well. They just outrange you.
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Sadly, half of SC2's promotional pictures feature a couple of colossi with two laser beams annihilating an enemy base. This damn unit stands under the spotlight to attract new players. That's probably why the world of multiplayer games revolves around it in actual gameplay. 
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
Simple change to Colossus:
- Make it slower and/or unable to kite units (like Thor)
- +20-40 HP
- Range 9 -> 8 (optional)
Then it will make sense.
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EPT
