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On November 15 2014 08:37 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 08:28 Maniak_ wrote:Whining, shouting and throwing tantrums over the current state of LotV, whatever it is, is however simply idiotic. And it's been mostly idiotic for more than 130 pages here already, so I don't even know why I'm wasting time writing this  You have hope for the human race, you optimist, you.
Really, really not
But maybe I still have hope for SC2. Well I mostly hope that *this time* the design team has grown enough balls to go through with their changes, ignoring whiners such as those infesting this topic, and don't go back on everything like they did for HotS.
I don't care if they break things initially. I care that they're willing to try (relatively) big changes to make the game more fun, interesting and action-packed, long term. To hell with balance, standard play, BW economy, ... Bring on the crazy and balance it later in the beta, once it's fun.
I don't have the crystal ball that some game design experts here seem to have, and the only farseers I know are in the Robin Hobb books. I'm more than willing to watch Blizzard break down the economy and the balance of SC2, *for now*, and wait for the start (and even more so the end) of the beta to see if the gamble actually paid off.
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On November 15 2014 07:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 04:59 VArsovskiSC wrote:On November 15 2014 04:54 SC2Toastie wrote:VArsovskiSC, you're flat out balance whining over a pre-alpha. Stop it. On November 15 2014 03:47 DinoMight wrote:On November 15 2014 03:41 Foxxan wrote:On November 15 2014 03:10 DoubleReed wrote:On November 15 2014 02:02 Hider wrote:I don't understand the Cyclone's role in Terran (except to be a Mech Marauder), and I think they should consider giving it to Protoss instead Initally I didn't either, but if this unit along with the Hellion can give terarn mech some harass potential vs armored units/static defense + it's stats can be tweaed somewhat so it interacts better --> This could be really awesome. You're supposed to be able harass armored units and static defense??? So how are you supposed to defend against them harassing you? Blink stalkers can still be good against cyclone. Immortals can to. Zealots can be good. I see lots of things for toss here. No, just no. You shouldn't be able to "harass" static D. Thats the POINT of static D, is to defend harass. Also, Zealots are melee, I'm not sure how you expect them so be useful against something that moves and shoots at the same time. I want to disagree with that. There is nothing wrong with Static D that can be destroyed in harassment. The worst thing I could think of is Static Defense that completely shuts down harassment without any attention required whatsoever (see: Photon Cannon vs Hellion, Mine; TurretS(!) vs Oracle) with a one-time investment of a couple of minerals you secure your mineral line with SD? There's 2 better options: a) Oracle vs one Turret: with good micro and enough attention, the Turret limits damage, but does not nullify the Oracle. Same happens with Banshee vs Turret. These are interesting interactions because SD limits the amount of damage dealt, but doesn't block it. b) 12 Mutalisk vs one Turret: with a quick repair the Mutalisk will have to commit to the harassment. They can kill the Turret, but it'll be expensive. Bad interactions: c) DT vs Defense. If there is SD, DT's will not deal any reasonable damage. d) Photon/Spine vs Hellions: if there is 2 or 3 defenses, you can throw any number of Hellions in there, it'll never be even remotely cost effective. The last 2 situations are bad. SD should either limit damage dealt OR buy time for additional defense. Because of that, it is no problem if the Cyclone can kill a cannon - as long as the Cannon buys Protoss the time to warp in or get defenses in place. First of all - NO - I'm not Second of all - I'm sick and tired of Terran f*cks telling me things "words of wisdom" cause I KNOW what I'm talking about If you wanna "check" what I'm talking about - consider for a second the following option About your a) - Consider Oracle with a range of 7 ? - how you like that Terran f*cker ? Seriously stop doing that sh*t of "wisening everyone else" cause it's downright outright ignorrant and dreadful Imagine the Oracle having a range of 7 and then having Protosses telling you - relax - it's pre-alpha, it's gonna get better, you can't be sure with 4 games in a showmatch series - YES YOU CAN Sick and tired of Terran apathy jerkness accross the board.. And that Mr. Kim himself having the worst thought process EVER and having his ridiculous sh*t justified by "cool to watch" No offense - only a sick mental Terran mindset can defend a cause that a "harassment unit should kill static D as well", every other "sane" person outright KNOWS that there should be a different unit for each of those two causes.. That's just outright ignorrant and jerk thought process to defend upon Take a chill pill bro. I agree that the direction the game is going is a bit Terran favored and I even wrote a blog about how I think Protoss is being neglected in LotV, but these kind of responses are a bit extreme and frankly no one will listen to what you have to say. I think that Banshees outranging static D will be a bit ridiculous. The point of static D is that you simply accept the COST of it up front to prevent eventual harassment LATER. Everyone knows that minerals are worth more if they're spent now vs. later.. So for example, if I make 3 cannons at the 10 minute mark they need to prevent way more than 450 minerals at the 15 minute mark to be worth it. Because those minerals could have been an extra base that would have yielded way more in the next 3-4 minutes. So you SHOULD be able to just throw down a whole bunch of cannons/turrets if you don't want to get harassed. A turret in each mineral line (200 mins) effectively shuts down an Oracle as it is right now. Sure you may be able to get 1 SCV building something away from the turrets but it doesn't justify the 300/300 investment. In that sense I think 7 range Banshees are a bit broken. And I don't think it's too early to discuss that. There are no new unit interactions that will change how a 7 range Banshee kills workers. Dino, might I ask your opinion on this:On November 15 2014 04:54 SC2Toastie wrote:VArsovskiSC, you're flat out balance whining over a pre-alpha. Stop it. Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 03:47 DinoMight wrote:On November 15 2014 03:41 Foxxan wrote:On November 15 2014 03:10 DoubleReed wrote:On November 15 2014 02:02 Hider wrote:I don't understand the Cyclone's role in Terran (except to be a Mech Marauder), and I think they should consider giving it to Protoss instead Initally I didn't either, but if this unit along with the Hellion can give terarn mech some harass potential vs armored units/static defense + it's stats can be tweaed somewhat so it interacts better --> This could be really awesome. You're supposed to be able harass armored units and static defense??? So how are you supposed to defend against them harassing you? Blink stalkers can still be good against cyclone. Immortals can to. Zealots can be good. I see lots of things for toss here. No, just no. You shouldn't be able to "harass" static D. Thats the POINT of static D, is to defend harass. Also, Zealots are melee, I'm not sure how you expect them so be useful against something that moves and shoots at the same time. I want to disagree with that. There is nothing wrong with Static D that can be destroyed in harassment. The worst thing I could think of is Static Defense that completely shuts down harassment without any attention required whatsoever (see: Photon Cannon vs Hellion, Mine; TurretS(!) vs Oracle) with a one-time investment of a couple of minerals you secure your mineral line with SD? There's 2 better options: a) Oracle vs one Turret: with good micro and enough attention, the Turret limits damage, but does not nullify the Oracle. Same happens with Banshee vs Turret. These are interesting interactions because SD limits the amount of damage dealt, but doesn't block it. b) 12 Mutalisk vs one Turret: with a quick repair the Mutalisk will have to commit to the harassment. They can kill the Turret, but it'll be expensive. Bad interactions: c) DT vs Defense. If there is SD, DT's will not deal any reasonable damage. d) Photon/Spine vs Hellions: if there is 2 or 3 defenses, you can throw any number of Hellions in there, it'll never be even remotely cost effective. The last 2 situations are bad. SD should either limit damage dealt OR buy time for additional defense. Because of that, it is no problem if the Cyclone can kill a cannon - as long as the Cannon buys Protoss the time to warp in or get defenses in place.
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Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged)
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On November 15 2014 21:29 ciox wrote:
Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged)
Point is that Banshees are not made for attacking static defense, but for attacking workers. Even now players find a hole in defense from where Banshees can attack and kill workers without them being in danger, and with 7 range it will be really hard to defend from Banshees as you will have to have more turrets/spores/cannons per base to cover every angle from which Banshees can attack.
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If you think about it, the banshee and the oracle fulfill the same role as a flying raider unit. Except the oracle has more dps, more hit points, a lot more speed, and is useful outside of raiding with spells like revelation. Between this and the BC warp drive, sky terran is getting buffed in LOTV. So is mech, with the changes to the immortal. It looks like LOTV is going to give terran some more diverse playstyle options and I like it.
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On November 15 2014 15:45 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 12:59 FabledIntegral wrote:
These are just random suggestions off the top of my head, and not implying they should all be made, just pick a few and do some tweaks. These would all make Protoss less colossi dependent (or maybe just remove them and replace??). If I'm not mistaken, that's what the Disruptor is supposed to be. It's basically a Reaver that is its own Scarab.
But that's exactly what we want to avoid, complete dependence on a single high tech unit as opposed to having stable units with the high tech to support. Maybe not as extreme as bio efficiency, but more than there is now.
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On November 15 2014 21:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 21:29 ciox wrote:
Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged) Point is that Banshees are not made for attacking static defense, but for attacking workers. Even now players find a hole in defense from where Banshees can attack and kill workers without them being in danger, and with 7 range it will be really hard to defend from Banshees as you will have to have more turrets/spores/cannons per base to cover every angle from which Banshees can attack.
The range upgrade is a late-game upgrade. Banshees don't start with it. It's true that TvZ and TvT mid-game doesn't need the upgrade, but late-game Banshee viability would be great to see, and TvP, well, what's there to say about TvP except that we don't see Banshees and seeing Banshees would be nice?
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On November 16 2014 11:57 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 21:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 15 2014 21:29 ciox wrote:
Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged) Point is that Banshees are not made for attacking static defense, but for attacking workers. Even now players find a hole in defense from where Banshees can attack and kill workers without them being in danger, and with 7 range it will be really hard to defend from Banshees as you will have to have more turrets/spores/cannons per base to cover every angle from which Banshees can attack. The range upgrade is a late-game upgrade. Banshees don't start with it. It's true that TvZ and TvT mid-game doesn't need the upgrade, but late-game Banshee viability would be great to see, and TvP, well, what's there to say about TvP except that we don't see Banshees and seeing Banshees would be nice?
I thought the speed increase was the upgrade, not the range increase? The range increase comes standard according to the OP. I might need to watch the video again to double check.
Banshees: now range increased. Cloak comes default. Upgrade (available once fusion core is built) to make it move faster than any detection possible
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On November 16 2014 12:21 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 11:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 15 2014 21:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 15 2014 21:29 ciox wrote:
Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged) Point is that Banshees are not made for attacking static defense, but for attacking workers. Even now players find a hole in defense from where Banshees can attack and kill workers without them being in danger, and with 7 range it will be really hard to defend from Banshees as you will have to have more turrets/spores/cannons per base to cover every angle from which Banshees can attack. The range upgrade is a late-game upgrade. Banshees don't start with it. It's true that TvZ and TvT mid-game doesn't need the upgrade, but late-game Banshee viability would be great to see, and TvP, well, what's there to say about TvP except that we don't see Banshees and seeing Banshees would be nice? I thought the speed increase was the upgrade, not the range increase? The range increase comes standard according to the OP. I might need to watch the video again to double check. Show nested quote +Banshees: now range increased. Cloak comes default. Upgrade (available once fusion core is built) to make it move faster than any detection possible
Hmm, so I might have been wrong. Obviously I still think this is a great change for lategame and for TvP in general, but it'll have to be looked at for the other two MUs to make sure defending them isn't unreasonably tough. But that sounds like something that should become very clear either way once beta hits.
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On November 16 2014 12:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 12:21 eviltomahawk wrote:On November 16 2014 11:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 15 2014 21:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 15 2014 21:29 ciox wrote:
Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged) Point is that Banshees are not made for attacking static defense, but for attacking workers. Even now players find a hole in defense from where Banshees can attack and kill workers without them being in danger, and with 7 range it will be really hard to defend from Banshees as you will have to have more turrets/spores/cannons per base to cover every angle from which Banshees can attack. The range upgrade is a late-game upgrade. Banshees don't start with it. It's true that TvZ and TvT mid-game doesn't need the upgrade, but late-game Banshee viability would be great to see, and TvP, well, what's there to say about TvP except that we don't see Banshees and seeing Banshees would be nice? I thought the speed increase was the upgrade, not the range increase? The range increase comes standard according to the OP. I might need to watch the video again to double check. Banshees: now range increased. Cloak comes default. Upgrade (available once fusion core is built) to make it move faster than any detection possible Hmm, so I might have been wrong. Obviously I still think this is a great change for lategame and for TvP in general, but it'll have to be looked at for the other two MUs to make sure defending them isn't unreasonably tough. But that sounds like something that should become very clear either way once beta hits.
Fortunately, the fan-made extension mod emulating the Blizzcon build should help us check the concept once its released. I'd love to see more late-game Banshee use outside of Mech.
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On November 16 2014 12:38 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 12:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 16 2014 12:21 eviltomahawk wrote:On November 16 2014 11:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 15 2014 21:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 15 2014 21:29 ciox wrote:
Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged) Point is that Banshees are not made for attacking static defense, but for attacking workers. Even now players find a hole in defense from where Banshees can attack and kill workers without them being in danger, and with 7 range it will be really hard to defend from Banshees as you will have to have more turrets/spores/cannons per base to cover every angle from which Banshees can attack. The range upgrade is a late-game upgrade. Banshees don't start with it. It's true that TvZ and TvT mid-game doesn't need the upgrade, but late-game Banshee viability would be great to see, and TvP, well, what's there to say about TvP except that we don't see Banshees and seeing Banshees would be nice? I thought the speed increase was the upgrade, not the range increase? The range increase comes standard according to the OP. I might need to watch the video again to double check. Banshees: now range increased. Cloak comes default. Upgrade (available once fusion core is built) to make it move faster than any detection possible Hmm, so I might have been wrong. Obviously I still think this is a great change for lategame and for TvP in general, but it'll have to be looked at for the other two MUs to make sure defending them isn't unreasonably tough. But that sounds like something that should become very clear either way once beta hits. Fortunately, the fan-made extension mod emulating the Blizzcon build should help us check the concept once its released. I'd love to see more late-game Banshee use outside of Mech.
Range and speed upgrades for banshees are already used in Starbow and it works quite well, they have a different kind of cloack but I think its really good like a lot of stuff in starbow they are strong if microed well without being too IMBA
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On November 16 2014 12:46 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 12:38 eviltomahawk wrote:On November 16 2014 12:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 16 2014 12:21 eviltomahawk wrote:On November 16 2014 11:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 15 2014 21:55 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 15 2014 21:29 ciox wrote:
Why do you think that a range 7 unit will outrange static defense? The only thing it outranges is bunkers with marines in them. (bunkers with ghosts are not outranged) Point is that Banshees are not made for attacking static defense, but for attacking workers. Even now players find a hole in defense from where Banshees can attack and kill workers without them being in danger, and with 7 range it will be really hard to defend from Banshees as you will have to have more turrets/spores/cannons per base to cover every angle from which Banshees can attack. The range upgrade is a late-game upgrade. Banshees don't start with it. It's true that TvZ and TvT mid-game doesn't need the upgrade, but late-game Banshee viability would be great to see, and TvP, well, what's there to say about TvP except that we don't see Banshees and seeing Banshees would be nice? I thought the speed increase was the upgrade, not the range increase? The range increase comes standard according to the OP. I might need to watch the video again to double check. Banshees: now range increased. Cloak comes default. Upgrade (available once fusion core is built) to make it move faster than any detection possible Hmm, so I might have been wrong. Obviously I still think this is a great change for lategame and for TvP in general, but it'll have to be looked at for the other two MUs to make sure defending them isn't unreasonably tough. But that sounds like something that should become very clear either way once beta hits. Fortunately, the fan-made extension mod emulating the Blizzcon build should help us check the concept once its released. I'd love to see more late-game Banshee use outside of Mech. Range and speed upgrades for banshees are already used in Starbow and it works quite well, they have a different kind of cloack but I think its really good like a lot of stuff in starbow they are strong if microed well without being too IMBA
They don't two shot shit though, and cloak is temporary (which makes all the difference, i know you mention)
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So speaking of damage points, I was wondering if there was a good justification for the thor's 0.831 value and maybe I found one: if you have a medivac with 8 marines ready to unload then there's is a significant delay before you deal full dps as the marines unload one by one. A medivac with a single thor has access to its full power instantly and if you could fire with no delay perhaps this recreates the BW situation where they had to add a delay to the reaver shot because reaver-shuttle micro was too broken.
Anyway. I did a quick test in the editor with a Thor with zero damage point and it seems overly powerful. However, it's actually compensated for because the thor ground cannon is a double attack, which I initially forgot about. So if you land the thor and immediately pick it back up it will deal only half damage. In my opinion, if the delay between the two attacks was a bit higher then Blizzard could normalize the thor damage point to the default value of 0.167 and create an interesting incentive for drop micro. Actually, microing the thor with the current damage point feels overly clumsy and it makes me wonder how pro players put up with the unit.
+ Show Spoiler +Values to try out for yourself in the editor:
Weapons - Thor - Thor's Hammer - Stats: Damage Point: 0.266
Weapons - Thor - Thor's Hammer - (Basic) Stats: Period: 1.536
Effects - Thor - Arm Cannons (persistent): (Basic) Effect: Period Durations: 0.00 | 0.45
I think with these values the Thor has a lot of potential in combination with the medivac. Motivation for each value: Damage point is lowered significantly, but is still higher than the default. Bringing it all the way down to zero makes the thor extremely powerful in conjunction with expert medivac use. Attack cooldown (Period) is raised a bit as a straight-up nerf to the unit. By reducing the damage point you also increase the dps of the Thor, especially in short fights, so it seemed prudent to combine the changes with a small nerf. The delay in between the Thor's double attack (Period Duration) is raised slightly to emphasize the concept of firing either once or twice when unloading and picking it up, which I think allows for higher stratification in outcome of harassment.
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On November 15 2014 22:43 BaronVonOwn wrote:
If you think about it, the banshee and the oracle fulfill the same role as a flying raider unit. Except the oracle has more dps, more hit points, a lot more speed, and is useful outside of raiding with spells like revelation. Between this and the BC warp drive, sky terran is getting buffed in LOTV. So is mech, with the changes to the immortal. It looks like LOTV is going to give terran some more diverse playstyle options and I like it.
Everything you said here about the Oracle is entirely wrong.. Except the movement speed part, but - won't matter cause now Banshees will have same movement speed (after the upgrade) as the Oracle
There's not a single reason to support your statement, lol
Sky Terran will still not be viable, in fact - much less viable, but mech (with the addition of Cyclone) will be a lot more mobile and strong
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Warp Prism pick-up range increase seems like an interesting idea, but I'm worried it's going to force vikings or mutalisks. Immortals will be more powerful too, you can keep flying around until the cooldown is up and then have a period of temporary immunity while they shoot down some roaches. The new zerg units don't address this, the ravager won't ever hit the warp prism and the lurker comes too late. Infestors won't be adequate either because the warp prism can always stay at a distance. The increased range makes spore crawlers less effective as well.
I tried it out in the editor and I can see that in the hands of a solid player the warp prism should never die to ground units. Colossus harassment versus terran seemed quite powerful in case the terran wasn't defending with vikings and immortal harassment versus zerg seemed unstoppable again assuming there weren't any mutalisks. I know I haven't tested it very thoroughly and obviously it's difficult to say much without beta testing, but there are some indications it will be problematic. (points to watch out for once beta hits)
I read that with the new economy system tech options are a bit less powerful as they come later, so it might be the case that you can simply outlast this sort of harassment by producing additional workers and wearing the warp prism down through attrition. I think a better solution for Blizzard is to not take absurdly high values like going from 1 to 6 pick-up range and to take the warp prism shield amount to a more reasonable value. It's currently very high to strengthen warp prism harassment, but with additional survivability in LotV its other assets should be compromised.
I do like the concept though. The warp prism suffers from being essentially too easy to shut down, as you always only have one of them. Unless Blizzard finds ways to encourage use of multiple warp prisms, which will probably require removal of the phase mode and which therefore won't happen, the warp prism could benefit from an added escape mechanism. Medivacs already have ignite afterburners and overlords come in high numbers. It would balance out. But Blizzard has to be especially careful to not create a unit that's never at risk unless you utilize some hard counter like the viking.
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On November 17 2014 03:00 Grumbels wrote:
Warp Prism pick-up range increase seems like an interesting idea, but I'm worried it's going to force vikings or mutalisks. Immortals will be more powerful too, you can keep flying around until the cooldown is up and then have a period of temporary immunity while they shoot down some roaches. The new zerg units don't address this, the ravager won't ever hit the warp prism and the lurker comes too late. Infestors won't be adequate either because the warp prism can always stay at a distance. The increased range makes spore crawlers less effective as well.
I tried it out in the editor and I can see that in the hands of a solid player the warp prism should never die to ground units. Colossus harassment versus terran seemed quite powerful in case the terran wasn't defending with vikings and immortal harassment versus zerg seemed unstoppable again assuming there weren't any mutalisks. I know I haven't tested it very thoroughly and obviously it's difficult to say much without beta testing, but there are some indications it will be problematic. (points to watch out for once beta hits)
I read that with the new economy system tech options are a bit less powerful as they come later, so it might be the case that you can simply outlast this sort of harassment by producing additional workers and wearing the warp prism down through attrition. I think a better solution for Blizzard is to not take absurdly high values like going from 1 to 6 pick-up range and to take the warp prism shield amount to a more reasonable value. It's currently very high to strengthen warp prism harassment, but with additional survivability in LotV its other assets should be compromised.
I do like the concept though. The warp prism suffers from being essentially too easy to shut down, as you always only have one of them. Unless Blizzard finds ways to encourage use of multiple warp prisms, which will probably require removal of the phase mode and which therefore won't happen, the warp prism could benefit from an added escape mechanism. Medivacs already have ignite afterburners and overlords come in high numbers. It would balance out. But Blizzard has to be especially careful to not create a unit that's never at risk unless you utilize some hard counter like the viking.
Hey, actual Protoss harassment would be cool. Gotta deal with the balance, but if a superior shuttle balances it against the Terran's superior droppables, that'd be cool.
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On November 16 2014 21:54 Grumbels wrote:So speaking of damage points, I was wondering if there was a good justification for the thor's 0.831 value and maybe I found one: if you have a medivac with 8 marines ready to unload then there's is a significant delay before you deal full dps as the marines unload one by one. A medivac with a single thor has access to its full power instantly and if you could fire with no delay perhaps this recreates the BW situation where they had to add a delay to the reaver shot because reaver-shuttle micro was too broken. Anyway. I did a quick test in the editor with a Thor with zero damage point and it seems overly powerful. However, it's actually compensated for because the thor ground cannon is a double attack, which I initially forgot about. So if you land the thor and immediately pick it back up it will deal only half damage. In my opinion, if the delay between the two attacks was a bit higher then Blizzard could normalize the thor damage point to the default value of 0.167 and create an interesting incentive for drop micro. Actually, microing the thor with the current damage point feels overly clumsy and it makes me wonder how pro players put up with the unit. + Show Spoiler +Values to try out for yourself in the editor:
Weapons - Thor - Thor's Hammer - Stats: Damage Point: 0.266
Weapons - Thor - Thor's Hammer - (Basic) Stats: Period: 1.536
Effects - Thor - Arm Cannons (persistent): (Basic) Effect: Period Durations: 0.00 | 0.45
I think with these values the Thor has a lot of potential in combination with the medivac. Motivation for each value: Damage point is lowered significantly, but is still higher than the default. Bringing it all the way down to zero makes the thor extremely powerful in conjunction with expert medivac use. Attack cooldown (Period) is raised a bit as a straight-up nerf to the unit. By reducing the damage point you also increase the dps of the Thor, especially in short fights, so it seemed prudent to combine the changes with a small nerf. The delay in between the Thor's double attack (Period Duration) is raised slightly to emphasize the concept of firing either once or twice when unloading and picking it up, which I think allows for higher stratification in outcome of harassment.
I don't think they were thinking balance at all. If you recall the original Thor design pre-beta for WoL was seriously that of "you can micro fast units around it before you can attack." They simply never changed it.
On November 17 2014 03:00 Grumbels wrote:
Warp Prism pick-up range increase seems like an interesting idea, but I'm worried it's going to force vikings or mutalisks. Immortals will be more powerful too, you can keep flying around until the cooldown is up and then have a period of temporary immunity while they shoot down some roaches. The new zerg units don't address this, the ravager won't ever hit the warp prism and the lurker comes too late. Infestors won't be adequate either because the warp prism can always stay at a distance. The increased range makes spore crawlers less effective as well.
I tried it out in the editor and I can see that in the hands of a solid player the warp prism should never die to ground units. Colossus harassment versus terran seemed quite powerful in case the terran wasn't defending with vikings and immortal harassment versus zerg seemed unstoppable again assuming there weren't any mutalisks. I know I haven't tested it very thoroughly and obviously it's difficult to say much without beta testing, but there are some indications it will be problematic. (points to watch out for once beta hits)
I read that with the new economy system tech options are a bit less powerful as they come later, so it might be the case that you can simply outlast this sort of harassment by producing additional workers and wearing the warp prism down through attrition. I think a better solution for Blizzard is to not take absurdly high values like going from 1 to 6 pick-up range and to take the warp prism shield amount to a more reasonable value. It's currently very high to strengthen warp prism harassment, but with additional survivability in LotV its other assets should be compromised.
I do like the concept though. The warp prism suffers from being essentially too easy to shut down, as you always only have one of them. Unless Blizzard finds ways to encourage use of multiple warp prisms, which will probably require removal of the phase mode and which therefore won't happen, the warp prism could benefit from an added escape mechanism. Medivacs already have ignite afterburners and overlords come in high numbers. It would balance out. But Blizzard has to be especially careful to not create a unit that's never at risk unless you utilize some hard counter like the viking.
Flying around until the cooldown is done? This buys so much insane time... so what if everytime their cooldown comes back they can kill another 5 zerglings, won't make a difference. if anything, the immortal has clearly been nerfed quite heavily in larger scale engagements.
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I can't wait for the fan made mod. I'm itching to play around with siege tank drops.
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On November 15 2014 16:22 L3monsta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 11:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 13 2014 08:08 Hider wrote:Why do thors have an absurd 0.831 damage point for their ground attack, but not their air attack? Why favor bio so much?
0.831 damage point lol. I didn't know it was that bad, and it wouldn't surprise me if this was an area where Blizzard is trying to make the casuals happy as a big mechanical unit like the Thor (lore-wise) is "supposed" to be slow and unresposnsive. That's my biggest wish for LOTV: Rework the stats of all of the units with the intention on improving micro-interactions while giving zero shi.t about "lore". Yes, the unit forces the terran to play differently. That's exactly what we want units to do. Impact the way we micro and play. Otherwise, you wouldn't get the unit in the first place. Yeh, but it shouldn't impact the interaction for the worse. Instead, it should make the overall game-dynamic different (allow zerg to attack into different locations than prevoiusly, and rewarding a mech transition is fine). But it should never make engagements less likely to occur, that's just a bad thing in itself. What's a 'damage point'? 0.831 oO I thoroughly recommend you watch depth of micro! + Show Spoiler +
Just a review of the first 8 minutes, I strongly suspect that this is intentional, that Blizzard wants individual air units to be very microable/responsive to allow good players to harass well, but doesn't want air deathballs that can destroy a ground army while barely being touched.
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Isn't the new Tempest ability exactly the same as irradiate without all the cool aspects? It's just a damage over time spell that slowly kills a unit.
+ Show Spoiler +There's the need to split units, trying to create backfires using friendly damage, the eraser trick.
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EPT
