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I don't think they were thinking balance at all. If you recall the original Thor design pre-beta for WoL was seriously that of "you can micro fast units around it before you can attack." They simply never changed it.
I think this is probably true.The Thor used to have a very slow turn rate and combined with a high damage point, enemy could run circles around it to take less damage. When it got into beta, however, they removed the slow turnrate, but "forgot" about adjusting the damage point as well.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
I had a dream tonight and i played LotV campaign in it. And there was Reaver on one of the missions, it was beutiful!
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On November 20 2014 00:51 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think they were thinking balance at all. If you recall the original Thor design pre-beta for WoL was seriously that of "you can micro fast units around it before you can attack." They simply never changed it. I think this is probably true.The Thor used to have a very slow turn rate and combined with a high damage point, enemy could run circles around it to take less damage. When it got into beta, however, they removed the slow turnrate, but "forgot" about adjusting the damage point as well.
Does it really work like that? I thought if you get into field of vision and then disappear from it the Thor still fires even though the damage point-induced delay made the initial attack condition false. I could have been mistaken in testing this, or maybe Blizzard changed this globally after moving the Thor towards the current design. The slow turn rate designs never quite work out in practice because this is an army vs army game while e.g. the design focuses too much on engaging a single Thor. I had a similar idea for slowly rotating missile turrets to enable mutalisk/phoenix vs turret micro, but I don't think it works out in practice.
On November 20 2014 01:08 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Does it really work like that? I thought if you get into field of vision and then disappear from it the Thor still fires even though the damage point-induced delay made the initial attack condition false. If a unit has a very high damage point, the enemy unit has time to get out of the critical range. But the critical range is not just the normal range of the unit, but should instead be seen as "normal range" + "range slop". With a low range slop and a high damage point, it's very easy for units to "miss attacks" against enemy units that run away. I don't know how it works for units that turns extremely slow though. Regardless, it's clear that if the unit has a high damage point, it gives the enemy units a headstart when they are running circles around the Thor as it can not rotate for 0.8 seconds. So when it is not attacking, it is slowly catching up to the enemy units that are running circles around it. Once it has catched up, it attacks one unit, while the other units can continue to run around it, and force the Thor to spend time on catching up.
Right. I only tested with units trying to move to the back of the Thor because that's the scenario that applies. And meh, I missed that effect but you're right: even if you can't avoid the first shot you can get in a better position for the second shot, so the high damage point could still be intended for this interaction. I didn't think about it because I tested the interaction with zerglings that would always die in one shot anyway.
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Does it really work like that? I thought if you get into field of vision and then disappear from it the Thor still fires even though the damage point-induced delay made the initial attack condition false.
If a unit has a very high damage point, the enemy unit has time to get out of the critical range. But the critical range is not just the normal range of the unit, but should instead be seen as "normal range" + "range slop". With a low range slop and a high damage point, it's very easy for units to "miss attacks" against enemy units that run away.
I don't know how it works for units that turns extremely slow though.
Regardless, it's clear that if the unit has a high damage point, it gives the enemy units a headstart when they are running circles around the Thor as it can not rotate for 0.8 seconds. So when it is not attacking, it is slowly catching up to the enemy units that are running circles around it. Once it has catched up, it attacks one unit, while the other units can continue to run around it, and force the Thor to spend time on catching up.
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I believe a unit still fires even if its turn radius stops it from aiming directly at the unit.
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On November 20 2014 08:27 DoubleReed wrote:
I believe a unit still fires even if its turn radius stops it from aiming directly at the unit.
There is an arc value in which it can fire even if not directly facing the target. For most smaller units that insta turn it is 0 and the unit just turns to the target.
For bigger units like the Thor it is a little bit bigger, but still very small as far as I recall. So the Thor more than less has to aim at its target.
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On November 20 2014 00:54 Jenia6109 wrote:
I had a dream tonight and i played LotV campaign in it. And there was Reaver on one of the missions, it was beutiful!
Give Mass Recall a try in the meanwhile!
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My favorite change is the sieged tank pickup! It makes it possible for T to go mech tech against P's deathball, which I think must be Blizzard's intention. Mech has never been very practical because of tank and Thor's lack of mobility, so bioball is like the only option. In TvP T is forced to waste resources on Vikings to snipe colossi and sometimes when facing blink stalkers, ten vikings can hardly take one colossus down. Generally it's a huge disadvantage for T when P and Z already have midgame and lategame units while T's still using 4M, but that's about to change. With the tank pickup and the immortal's nerf, tanks will be able to fill vikings' shoes to attack colossus and cover for marines and mauraders! T could also build a full mech army of tank/cyclone/hellbat/thor to deal with P's deathball.
And nonetheless, tank drop harassment has a huge potential, maybe even more threatening than traditional MM drop. I'm looking forward to see more of that!
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Tank pickup is actually the thing that worries me the most... TvX matchups have relied on the siege/unsiege time as a key balancing factor for a decade and a half now. It really feels to me like that distinctive feel and playstyle is taken away if T doesn't have to have that moment of vulnerability while moving tanks. I guess it'll be kept in check by the viking threat in TVT, but in other matchups it'll be a lot harder to snipe the medivacs, meaning T can advance the tanks really, really quickly now.
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On November 20 2014 19:16 Yoav wrote:
Tank pickup is actually the thing that worries me the most... TvX matchups have relied on the siege/unsiege time as a key balancing factor for a decade and a half now. It really feels to me like that distinctive feel and playstyle is taken away if T doesn't have to have that moment of vulnerability while moving tanks. I guess it'll be kept in check by the viking threat in TVT, but in other matchups it'll be a lot harder to snipe the medivacs, meaning T can advance the tanks really, really quickly now.
Don't forget that in BW P doesn't have colossus, period. Immortal, blink stalkers, phoenix even zealots with charge can easily crash sieged tanks in a good position, so tank is basically out of play in TvP, and in HotS it's no longer practical to protect marines from rolling banelings as well because of viper. This is really unfair to T. Compared to tank's siege/unsiege time, colossus's vulnerability to air units is a much smaller vulnerability when it's protected by blink stalkers.
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On November 20 2014 19:16 Yoav wrote:
Tank pickup is actually the thing that worries me the most... TvX matchups have relied on the siege/unsiege time as a key balancing factor for a decade and a half now. It really feels to me like that distinctive feel and playstyle is taken away if T doesn't have to have that moment of vulnerability while moving tanks. I guess it'll be kept in check by the viking threat in TVT, but in other matchups it'll be a lot harder to snipe the medivacs, meaning T can advance the tanks really, really quickly now.
When protoss did the same thing with a unit that deals 125 splash damage that cost less gas no one batted an eye.
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On November 21 2014 00:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 19:16 Yoav wrote:
Tank pickup is actually the thing that worries me the most... TvX matchups have relied on the siege/unsiege time as a key balancing factor for a decade and a half now. It really feels to me like that distinctive feel and playstyle is taken away if T doesn't have to have that moment of vulnerability while moving tanks. I guess it'll be kept in check by the viking threat in TVT, but in other matchups it'll be a lot harder to snipe the medivacs, meaning T can advance the tanks really, really quickly now. When protoss did the same thing with a unit that deals 125 splash damage that cost less gas no one batted an eye.
It wasn't the same thing. Several differences:
(i) The shuttle - when not upgraded - had a relative slowly movement speed and no speed-boost.
(ii) Reaver has 9 range
(iii) Reaver had roughly a 0.5 second delay before they would attack after getting dropped off.
(iii) Enemy could micro against the projectile, and thus a good player would take less damage from Reaver drops.
Tank siege drops can work, but it cannot drop off instantly and attack. There needs to be roughly a 1 second delay (at least).
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^ But Reaver AOE damage (potential) is much greater than the sc2 tank, isn't it?
I'm still not sure the proposed buff to tanks, as in being able to be dropped in siege, makes them more interesting as harass than just a bunch of stim marines. Those things have beast DPS and are fast to chase some workers down, when they get pulled.
With that said, I'm also sure there will be some form of slight delay added.
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From the first tank drop video it looks like there is a slight delay already.
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I think we can all agree Tank drop needs either;
1) delay before firing
2) drop in unsieged mode
I'd prefer option 2. That still keeps the punishing cooldown time to attack in while Tanks move.
I'd prefer that over Tanks that leapfrog without siege time and at 4 speed 0_0
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On November 21 2014 02:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think we can all agree Tank drop needs either;
1) delay before firing
2) drop in unsieged mode
I'd prefer option 2. That still keeps the punishing cooldown time to attack in while Tanks move.
I'd prefer that over Tanks that leapfrog without siege time and at 4 speed 0_0
Dude, that would b fucking awesome. Even more awesome is someone who starts kiting with tanks using 3-5 medivacs moving back and forth non-stop
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On November 21 2014 02:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think we can all agree Tank drop needs either;
1) delay before firing
2) drop in unsieged mode
I'd prefer option 2. That still keeps the punishing cooldown time to attack in while Tanks move.
I'd prefer that over Tanks that leapfrog without siege time and at 4 speed 0_0
Yeh, the 2nd option was me two years ago.
Give the starport a late game upgrade to pick up sieged tanks, so you don't have to unsiege them and then put then in the dropship. However when tanks gets unloaded they come out in nonsiege mode (even if they were loaded in siege mode).
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow?page=218
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On November 21 2014 03:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 02:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think we can all agree Tank drop needs either;
1) delay before firing
2) drop in unsieged mode
I'd prefer option 2. That still keeps the punishing cooldown time to attack in while Tanks move.
I'd prefer that over Tanks that leapfrog without siege time and at 4 speed 0_0 Dude, that would b fucking awesome. Even more awesome is someone who starts kiting with tanks using 3-5 medivacs moving back and forth non-stop
I think in that situation you'd be better off investing those 500/500 in more units... 
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On November 21 2014 04:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 02:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think we can all agree Tank drop needs either;
1) delay before firing
2) drop in unsieged mode
I'd prefer option 2. That still keeps the punishing cooldown time to attack in while Tanks move.
I'd prefer that over Tanks that leapfrog without siege time and at 4 speed 0_0 Yeh, the 2nd option was me two years ago. Show nested quote +Give the starport a late game upgrade to pick up sieged tanks, so you don't have to unsiege them and then put then in the dropship. However when tanks gets unloaded they come out in nonsiege mode (even if they were loaded in siege mode). Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow?page=218
Haha, Awesome!
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On November 21 2014 04:17 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 03:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 21 2014 02:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think we can all agree Tank drop needs either;
1) delay before firing
2) drop in unsieged mode
I'd prefer option 2. That still keeps the punishing cooldown time to attack in while Tanks move.
I'd prefer that over Tanks that leapfrog without siege time and at 4 speed 0_0 Dude, that would b fucking awesome. Even more awesome is someone who starts kiting with tanks using 3-5 medivacs moving back and forth non-stop I think in that situation you'd be better off investing those 500/500 in more units...
Shush you! Plat league here I come!
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EPT
