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On November 12 2014 23:52 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2014 23:28 Big J wrote:On November 12 2014 22:32 ejozl wrote:On November 12 2014 22:03 TheDwf wrote:On November 12 2014 21:41 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 12 2014 18:40 TheDwf wrote:
Another thing we should push forward is a better highground advantage; in conjunction with a modification of the economy implementing major diminishing returns beyond the 8th worker (instead of the 16th as of now), this would further turn away the game from massive blobs of units ramming into each other. Of course it should only be done if the economy is reworked in this precise way, because 2b/3b camping does not need to become stronger without a significant compensation for the opposing side. What sort of highground advantage do you have in mind? % damage debuff? Yeah, something like 20-30% chances for ranged attacks to miss. That's how SC1 and WC3 worked, but honestly, we have no RNG in this game, seems silly to suddenly incorperate it in. I'd much rather prefer a range increase/decrease, depending on if your shooting down cliffs or up cliffs. This doesn't always make sense though, ex: a Spine Crawler can suddenly reach farther? doesn't add up. You can also give a -1 dmg for shooting up, as there's a cover, same reason to have the miss chance. This'll hurt Marines the most, but probably also the unit that would miss the most in real life. I dno, but the miss chance is the weaker option IMO. I'm with you, no RNG! a) moderate range buff for ranged units (it works on every cliff) b) strong damage buff for melee units attacking up vs down (it only works around ramps) a) could be realized with ~15-20% rounded, i.e. +1 for marine/marauder/roach/hydraliks/stalker/VR/...; +2-3 tanks/carriers/tempest/Broodlord... b) could just take 1-2 upgrade values and add them, i.e. a zergling further up a ramp has +1-2damage; a Dark Templar up gets +5-10damage One could make special cases for an Archon to be put into the melee category if wanted. Why not just go for simplicity and add +2 range when you're on a cliff? It would be a real defenders advantage, not complicated to understand for new players and if you're worried about spines looking silly, don't apply it to them.
Whats a cliff, though? Does it count as a cliff if there's space(for doodads) between two ground positions but the target position is still lower than the source position?
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On November 12 2014 23:52 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2014 23:28 Big J wrote:On November 12 2014 22:32 ejozl wrote:On November 12 2014 22:03 TheDwf wrote:On November 12 2014 21:41 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 12 2014 18:40 TheDwf wrote:
Another thing we should push forward is a better highground advantage; in conjunction with a modification of the economy implementing major diminishing returns beyond the 8th worker (instead of the 16th as of now), this would further turn away the game from massive blobs of units ramming into each other. Of course it should only be done if the economy is reworked in this precise way, because 2b/3b camping does not need to become stronger without a significant compensation for the opposing side. What sort of highground advantage do you have in mind? % damage debuff? Yeah, something like 20-30% chances for ranged attacks to miss. That's how SC1 and WC3 worked, but honestly, we have no RNG in this game, seems silly to suddenly incorperate it in. I'd much rather prefer a range increase/decrease, depending on if your shooting down cliffs or up cliffs. This doesn't always make sense though, ex: a Spine Crawler can suddenly reach farther? doesn't add up. You can also give a -1 dmg for shooting up, as there's a cover, same reason to have the miss chance. This'll hurt Marines the most, but probably also the unit that would miss the most in real life. I dno, but the miss chance is the weaker option IMO. I'm with you, no RNG! a) moderate range buff for ranged units (it works on every cliff) b) strong damage buff for melee units attacking up vs down (it only works around ramps) a) could be realized with ~15-20% rounded, i.e. +1 for marine/marauder/roach/hydraliks/stalker/VR/...; +2-3 tanks/carriers/tempest/Broodlord... b) could just take 1-2 upgrade values and add them, i.e. a zergling further up a ramp has +1-2damage; a Dark Templar up gets +5-10damage One could make special cases for an Archon to be put into the melee category if wanted. Why not just go for simplicity and add +2 range when you're on a cliff? It would be a real defenders advantage, not complicated to understand for new players and if you're worried about spines looking silly, don't apply it to them.
because it's very strong for basic units if you give them +2 and doesn't help melee units at all.
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On November 12 2014 23:38 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2014 23:34 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 12 2014 23:17 Hider wrote:I think you underestimate the difference SH not spawning locusts manually will make. At minimum, they become a form of offensive macro (aka micro). Offensive "macro" (?) =/ micro. Noone cares about who is good at pressing one butting, but rather "real" micro is how you position your units during an engagement relative to what your enemy is doing. That's why marine vs baneling is enjoyable as the terran player reacts to banelings coming in. No one cares about who is good at pressing one button? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misspoke, because you cannot have implied that creep spread, larva management, and resource management in general are skills we don't value. I certainly value them. The new SH is basically a mobile offensive Hatchery. Every 50 seconds you have to build units with it and tell those units where to go. But they're vulnerable now. They don't get to hide underground. So you have to move them around to keep them out of harm's way. If you want to argue that free units are inherently bad, that's one thing. But arguing that macro units are inherently bad? What, you want us to do away with Queens, next? I agree. There is more to the game than flashy marine splits and basic kiting. Maybe beginners don't see the beauty in good positional play, but I certainly do. These Swarm Host look like a very, VERY large threat that can work exellently in place of or in combination with mutalisk. You can use them as an offensive hatchery and attack the same location all the time, but that'd be a waste of resources and the fastest way to get rid of them as well. They require a ton of attention and planning to use well.
Someone in some other thread suggested to change swarm host in literal moving hatchery:
SH would be spawning larvas with some cooldown or even carry hatching eggs - a form of proxy reinforcements.
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On November 12 2014 23:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2014 23:38 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 12 2014 23:34 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 12 2014 23:17 Hider wrote:I think you underestimate the difference SH not spawning locusts manually will make. At minimum, they become a form of offensive macro (aka micro). Offensive "macro" (?) =/ micro. Noone cares about who is good at pressing one butting, but rather "real" micro is how you position your units during an engagement relative to what your enemy is doing. That's why marine vs baneling is enjoyable as the terran player reacts to banelings coming in. No one cares about who is good at pressing one button? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misspoke, because you cannot have implied that creep spread, larva management, and resource management in general are skills we don't value. I certainly value them. The new SH is basically a mobile offensive Hatchery. Every 50 seconds you have to build units with it and tell those units where to go. But they're vulnerable now. They don't get to hide underground. So you have to move them around to keep them out of harm's way. If you want to argue that free units are inherently bad, that's one thing. But arguing that macro units are inherently bad? What, you want us to do away with Queens, next? I agree. There is more to the game than flashy marine splits and basic kiting. Maybe beginners don't see the beauty in good positional play, but I certainly do. These Swarm Host look like a very, VERY large threat that can work exellently in place of or in combination with mutalisk. You can use them as an offensive hatchery and attack the same location all the time, but that'd be a waste of resources and the fastest way to get rid of them as well. They require a ton of attention and planning to use well. I'm with Dwf who said that they are either still a siege weapon or a crap unit that releases locusts and from there on are just wasted useless supply for a long time. (or something along those lines) Maybe they will tune down the supply a lot so that you can have them besides a standing army, but if they stay at 3supply I can't see me running around with 30+ supply that can only fight every 50seconds and is supposed to be bad at it (according to bliz)
Why is it OK for an Infestor with less than 75 mana to be useless, but not OK for a recharging SH to be useless? I can't speak to the supply thing, that'll depend on what their stats end up being. But I see nothing wrong with the concept.
On November 12 2014 23:47 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +No one cares about who is good at pressing one button? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misspoke, because you cannot have implied that creep spread, larva management, and resource management in general are skills we don't value. I certainly value them.
I wouldn't compare unit-design that should be about encouraging micro to macro-abilities. What the majority of viewers want to see more of is micro. So yeh, people who are good at pressing one button every 60th second isn't an exciting way of increasing the skill-cap. '
Not every unit has to be designed around encouraging micro from the player who builds it. And that's coming from someone who thinks that half of the units in the game ought to be redesigned.
Queens and Observers are excellent macro units. WM have good micro potential, but they're even better at forcing the enemy to micro to minimize losses, which makes them one of the best designed units in TvZ in my opinion. Without them, Zerg can A-move to victory. With them, they can't.
So I don't agree with your blanket suggestions that a unit like the SH can't possibly be good for the game. There's room for all kinds of units in SC2. That doesn't mean the new SH is perfect. If you've got a better idea about how it could be a more fun unit, you have my attention.
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Not every unit has to be designed around encouraging micro from the player who builds it. And that's coming from someone who thinks that half of the units in the game ought to be redesigned.
WM have good micro potential, but they're even better at forcing the enemy to micro to minimize losses, which makes them one of the best designed units in TvZ in my opinion. Without them, Zerg can A-move to victory. With them, they can't.
First of all, it's not true that Widow Mines are easy to micro. Ideally you position them indiviudally prior to an engagement, which is pretty hard and most pro's aren't consistently good at this.
Secondly, as you point out, they reward the enemy for microing.
Swarm Hosts, doesn't do that. It's simply a "cheap" way of encouaring more aggression, but what I think Blizzard fails to understand is that aggression isn't a good thing in it self. What the majority actually want is more unit vs unit interaction. Sure if you only turtle, then we will never see unit vs unit interactions, but if you just replace the turtling with unmicroable free units, we won't see more of it either.
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On November 13 2014 00:04 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2014 23:42 Big J wrote:On November 12 2014 23:38 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 12 2014 23:34 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 12 2014 23:17 Hider wrote:I think you underestimate the difference SH not spawning locusts manually will make. At minimum, they become a form of offensive macro (aka micro). Offensive "macro" (?) =/ micro. Noone cares about who is good at pressing one butting, but rather "real" micro is how you position your units during an engagement relative to what your enemy is doing. That's why marine vs baneling is enjoyable as the terran player reacts to banelings coming in. No one cares about who is good at pressing one button? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misspoke, because you cannot have implied that creep spread, larva management, and resource management in general are skills we don't value. I certainly value them. The new SH is basically a mobile offensive Hatchery. Every 50 seconds you have to build units with it and tell those units where to go. But they're vulnerable now. They don't get to hide underground. So you have to move them around to keep them out of harm's way. If you want to argue that free units are inherently bad, that's one thing. But arguing that macro units are inherently bad? What, you want us to do away with Queens, next? I agree. There is more to the game than flashy marine splits and basic kiting. Maybe beginners don't see the beauty in good positional play, but I certainly do. These Swarm Host look like a very, VERY large threat that can work exellently in place of or in combination with mutalisk. You can use them as an offensive hatchery and attack the same location all the time, but that'd be a waste of resources and the fastest way to get rid of them as well. They require a ton of attention and planning to use well. I'm with Dwf who said that they are either still a siege weapon or a crap unit that releases locusts and from there on are just wasted useless supply for a long time. (or something along those lines) Maybe they will tune down the supply a lot so that you can have them besides a standing army, but if they stay at 3supply I can't see me running around with 30+ supply that can only fight every 50seconds and is supposed to be bad at it (according to bliz) Why is it OK for an Infestor with less than 75 mana to be useless, but not OK for a recharging SH to be useless? I can't speak to the supply thing, that'll depend on what their stats end up being. But I see nothing wrong with the concept.
Because the Infestor is a strong combat unit and you manage its ability in a way that it isn't useless when you need it.
That's why I think the SH will still mainly be used as Siege Weapon/Combat Unit or not at all. If you manage it the way blizzard intends, it's always useless when you actually need it and bad in combat to begin with (blizzards words).
Also I do not quite understand how blizzard wants them to be bad in combat while buffing locusts. I imagine that you'd just do what you do now with your hosts, just that you do not rally locusts at all in case the opponent wants to move forward. When he does, you release them cast your fungals and blinding clouds, run in with the rest of your army and you are even more powerful than you are now. I guess the more mobile the enemy army is, the less useful this is going to be because he can retreat after baiting the locusts. But in case of Mech and you sieging him on locations that he can't retreat from this could be even better than now.
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On November 12 2014 09:26 DoubleReed wrote:
When I first saw the Disruptor I thought it was basically a Scarab without the Reaver. I realize now that I don't understand it at all.
It's so slow. The invincibility lasts so long (it has to because it's so slow). They need to make that unit way faster (maybe immobilize before it detonates or something to give you a chance to run). Hell, maybe just make it invincible anytime it's moving and it has to stop to detonate. Maybe they can keep it the way it is now, but give it a much larger speed boost while it's invincible.
But it should like zip around like the Oracle. Then it would be way more exciting. I don't even understand how the unit is supposed to work the way it is right now. No wonder the Protoss are bitching.
yeah on top of that you have to wait 4 seconds before it can do any damage. There is no detonate button like with banelings. So it looks not very useful unless time warps or force fields are helping.
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@swarm host
To encourage more decision behind the use.
Perhaps have the locust within 15-20range of the swarmhost. This way, there are some decisions for the zerg:
-Stay within 20range and risk beeing backstabbed?
@Lurker with 9range
Something i thought was cool was the micro interaction between:
Lurker, ling ,hydra vs dragoon ,zealot, templar
Dragoon hits the burrowed lurkers while having zealots at the back and storm ready.
Lings/hydras attack the dragoons to support the lurkers. Toss storms and kite. Ling/hydra backs off. Repeat.
Goons and lurkers had same range btw.
David kim mentioned that in their internal testing, protoss fought vs lurkers by spreading out and attack at different locations.
So something i really want is for protoss is to be able to fight vs lurkers with the same type of micro as in broodwar.
And i do not want the colossus to be that unit involved in this micro interaction.
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I don't play protoss, i hate protoss but if i were P i would find this a little underwhelming.
I mean their new stuff is just not fun ._.
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I think they should make some changes to the warp prism possibly in LotV. If Blizz wants to go with the theme of making warpgate less important I think that they could consider removing the warp capability from the WP and instead increasing size capacity and possibly moving Guardian Shield to the prism.
Imagine if you could use your warp prism to protect flanks of your army in combination with drop micro instead of relying on sentries that are slow and get stuck behind other units.
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@Warp prism
Since they increased the pickup radius by a very big margin which kinda removes the counterplay and risk.
Maybe have the warpprism would be able to go into a mode with bigger radius pickup but gets very slow or immobile while doing it.
I could see alot of scenarios this would still be worth using it.
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On November 13 2014 00:12 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Not every unit has to be designed around encouraging micro from the player who builds it. And that's coming from someone who thinks that half of the units in the game ought to be redesigned.
Show nested quote +WM have good micro potential, but they're even better at forcing the enemy to micro to minimize losses, which makes them one of the best designed units in TvZ in my opinion. Without them, Zerg can A-move to victory. With them, they can't. First of all, it's not true that Widow Mines are easy to micro. Ideally you position them indiviudally prior to an engagement, which is pretty hard and most pro's aren't consistently good at this. Secondly, as you point out, they reward the enemy for microing. Swarm Hosts, doesn't do that a lot. It's simply a "cheap" way of encouaring more aggression, but why I think Blizzard fails to understand is that aggression isn't a good thing in it self. What the majority actually want is more unit vs unit interaction. Sure if you only turtle, then we will never see unit vs unit interactions, but if just replace the turtling with unmicroable free units, we won't see more of it either.
I don't think the LOTV SH is perfect. I'm not even sure it's good, I'll need to see more games with it before I can make up my mind one way or the other. But a lot of the problems people have with the SH aren't fundamental problems with the unit. They're contextual problemes. HOTS SH could have been the Zerg's version of a BW Siege Tank... the problem is there's no Zerg version of the Vulture to be the one-two punch. And there's no way to punish SH clumping.
Both of these are not inherently faults with the SH. If there was another unit that had more micro potential, which synergized well with the SH, then SH+something would be a fun composition to watch. If there was a WM-like unit for T/P that forced the SH to spread out, they would have to be more positional. Think about bio vs bane/ling/muta engagements, you'll often see a Terran spread out across an entire screen before a battle takes place, to minimize Bane splash and minimize WM friendly fire. It's not actually an efficient position for bio units to take, they'd much rather all be clumped up and attacking at the same time, but they can't because of Banelings. Banelings and WMs make Marines more interesting units. It helps that Marines are very interesting to begin with, but not every unit can be as glorious as master race Marine.
There are many things that determine whether a unit is interesting to watch in a MU or not. I feel that people mistake the incidental for the fundamental far too often, and end up writing off units like SH wholesale when they could be salvaged and made to enrich the game.
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It helps that Marines are very interesting to begin with
Not sure in what way marines are interesting to begin with?
The interaction for the marine vs other units arent great. I cant think of any other unit which interacts with the marine other than the baneling vs marine.
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Are there any LotV Vods out there?
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On November 13 2014 00:48 Foxxan wrote:Not sure in what way marines are interesting to begin with? The interaction for the marine vs other units arent great. I cant think of any other unit which interacts with the marine other than the baneling vs marine.
Unlike other units they don't have a stupid damage point.
Also their early game vs units like stalkers or banshees that barely outrange marines is quite interesting.
And then medivacs are very interesting which just makes for a great combination with all bio, so marine play becomes cool.
I think you could make units like roaches as interesting as marines and stalkers just superior by removing damage point and fiddling with the one or other interaction. But given that this isn't the case I think marines are often just more interesting to watch.
Also they are way cooler to watch because they are guys and not some forms of monsters. People love their zealot/marine type of humanly looking units. You can connect to them much easier than to a roach, zergling or stalker.
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On November 13 2014 00:48 Foxxan wrote:Not sure in what way marines are interesting to begin with? The interaction for the marine vs other units arent great. I cant think of any other unit which interacts with the marine other than the baneling vs marine.
I'd say almost every unit interacts well with the Marine because of the Marine's insane microability, which is what makes them interesting units. Melee units encourage kiting or positional play (defensive chokes in minerals), banes/WM/Storm encourage splitting and different positional play (spread out engagements), Mutalisks encourage hot dropping Marines one by one to maximize damage output/save Medivacs. Enemy Tank splash encourages dropping suicide Marine bombs. (Hellbats have supplanted this role in HOTS because they don't die when they do it, but this used to be a thing)
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On November 13 2014 00:57 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 00:48 Foxxan wrote:It helps that Marines are very interesting to begin with Not sure in what way marines are interesting to begin with? The interaction for the marine vs other units arent great. I cant think of any other unit which interacts with the marine other than the baneling vs marine. I'd say almost every unit interacts well with the Marine because of the Marine's insane microability, which is what makes them interesting units. Melee units encourage kiting or positional play (defensive chokes in minerals), banes/WM/Storm encourage splitting and different positional play (spread out engagements), Mutalisks encourage hot dropping Marines one by one to maximize damage output/save Medivacs.
The interaction is pretty one-sided though. There's little to none counter-micro apart from fungal growth and forcefields. Otherwise it's just hoping that the marine-controlling player makes micro mistakes. Even flanking is most of the time just crossing fingers, if a terran is stutter-stepping well there's no micro that solves the situation for you, and even pulling back results in a hit for you due to stim. If a terran is splitting well againts your banelings they're gone and you can't do anything to recover apart from bringing in more units.
You win vs marines by taking the right engagement and having more/better units, not via micro.
[No critique at the marine, I'm not saying it's too strong - it's definitely not. Just want to say that the micro possibilities AGAINST them are minimal]
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On November 13 2014 01:03 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2014 00:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On November 13 2014 00:48 Foxxan wrote:It helps that Marines are very interesting to begin with Not sure in what way marines are interesting to begin with? The interaction for the marine vs other units arent great. I cant think of any other unit which interacts with the marine other than the baneling vs marine. I'd say almost every unit interacts well with the Marine because of the Marine's insane microability, which is what makes them interesting units. Melee units encourage kiting or positional play (defensive chokes in minerals), banes/WM/Storm encourage splitting and different positional play (spread out engagements), Mutalisks encourage hot dropping Marines one by one to maximize damage output/save Medivacs. The interaction is pretty one-sided though. There's little to none counter-micro apart from fungal growth. Otherwise it's just hoping that the marine-controlling player makes micro mistakes. Even flanking is most of the time just crossing fingers, if a terran is stutter-stepping well there's no micro that solves the situation for you, and even pulling back results in a hit for you due to stim.
Lurker vs Marine was one-sided in BW, you just crossed your fingers that the guy you were playing wasn't Boxer and so couldn't run circles around your Lurkers. Doesn't stop everyone from reminiscing about those days with great nostalgia.
Not that I'm against more dynamic unit relationships, but I'd settle for every unit being interesting in a one-sided way first, which still seems an impossibly distant goal on the cusp of 2015.
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On November 12 2014 08:59 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2014 07:11 GDI wrote:
I don't like the changes to the corrupter. I think the corrupter should stay the same as is but also give it an ability to sacrifice itself as a zerg drop pod.
Corrupters look exactly like zerg drop ships anyway and add value to the corrupter when all air targets are finished. It will also compliment the sc2 3D engine.
this is a cool idea, but speaking as a protoss the problem is still that there is no punishment for overmaking corruptors vs colossus. Zerg could make 25 corruptors, totally wreck the few colossus on the field and then suicide all the corruptors into ground army.
Yeah but terran isn't punished greatly for making too many vikings that they can land right? At least terran can redeploy them into the air.
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I think you could make units like roaches as interesting as marines and stalkers just superior by removing damage point and fiddling with the one or other interaction.
Hmm, while I think you can make the Roach feel a bit better without any damage point - as there will be more scenarios where you can attack and then move to the right, left or back while attacking - I still don't think it would feel as good as the Marine. I believe movement speed and range are also variables that are important for the micro, and it's why I would also prefer a slightly less cost-efficient Roach, but make both it and the Zealot faster. In general, if a unit has less range, it needs faster movement speed in order to encourage the same amount of micro. Marine has 3.5 movement speed and 5 range when stimmed, while Speed Roaches off creep only has 3 movement speed and 4 range (I think).
In my opinion, Sc2 would benefit w/ multiple units being both faster and more responsive. Ideally, speed Roaches would have a movement speed of around 3.5 off-creep with a lower boost on creep (maybe down to 15% from 30%). Burrow/unburrow duration can be even faster as well. Blizzard has a a 1-second delay, which makes burrow-based micro less practical during engagement.
If we look at the Zealot, I think charge should either be removed or it should be made a lot more powerful in the hands of a good player. If it's removed, speed-Zealots could move at around 3.75
With such a high movement speed, infinite kiting won't be as strong vs Zealots, while a good protoss player has more opportunities for moving around with the Zealot. Same concept can be applied to the Ultralisk. Either give it an ability that encourages actual micro (thus not auto-cast and a spam-based ability) or increase its movement speed and balance it based on that.
Almost every unit in Sc2 (except for the Marine) has many ways where you can adjust the stats of the unit to encourage alot more micro without any cheap "click a button and X happens".
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EPT
