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SoleSteeler
Canada5472 Posts
On November 12 2014 18:41 Ramiz1989 wrote: In one of those exhibition matches, 2 Disruptors killed 19 workers, workers are just slow and you can't escape from them, only thing you can do is split. Which game was this? I didn't see anyone build a disruptor in a game... was it JD Zest vs. Polt Soo? | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3544 Posts
On November 12 2014 22:03 TheDwf wrote: Yeah, something like 20-30% chances for ranged attacks to miss. That's how SC1 and WC3 worked, but honestly, we have no RNG in this game, seems silly to suddenly incorperate it in. I'd much rather prefer a range increase/decrease, depending on if your shooting down cliffs or up cliffs. This doesn't always make sense though, ex: a Spine Crawler can suddenly reach farther? doesn't add up. You can also give a -1 dmg for shooting up, as there's a cover, same reason to have the miss chance. This'll hurt Marines the most, but probably also the unit that would miss the most in real life. I dno, but the miss chance is the weaker option IMO. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
I perhaps agree, but in my opinion Swarm Host has always been a garbage unit. At least this way they're trying something a bit different. It still seems like a dumb unit though, without any significant difference. The real issue with the Swarm Host has always been that it discouraged player vs player interaction, and instead made it about unmicrable free units vs one player running away. I honestly don't think anything is really different here. Sure, it won't be used to turtle, but it won't reward any micro from the zerg player and the enemy will steel feel dumb if he ever loses units to the Locusts. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 12 2014 22:32 ejozl wrote: That's how SC1 and WC3 worked, but honestly, we have no RNG in this game, seems silly to suddenly incorperate it in. I'd much rather prefer a range increase/decrease, depending on if your shooting down cliffs or up cliffs. This doesn't always make sense though, ex: a Spine Crawler can suddenly reach farther? doesn't add up. You can also give a -1 dmg for shooting up, as there's a cover, same reason to have the miss chance. This'll hurt Marines the most, but probably also the unit that would miss the most in real life. I dno, but the miss chance is the weaker option IMO. I'm with ezojl. I don't like throwing RNG into the game if it can be avoided. Even the WM isn't truly RNG, it just appears that way because we can't calculate who it will target within the split-second timeframe we have to act on that calculation. Ideal solution would be something like -25% damage for units on low ground shooting on high ground, but I remember reading a long time ago that SC2 can't do those sort of calculations on the fly fast enough. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 12 2014 22:38 Hider wrote: The real issue with the Swarm Host has always been that it discouraged player vs player interaction, and instead made it about unmicrable free units vs one player running away. I honestly don't think anything is really different here. Sure, it won't be used to turtle, but it won't reward any micro from the zerg player and the enemy will steel feel dumb if he ever loses units to the Locusts. I think you underestimate the difference SH not spawning locusts manually will make. At minimum, they become a form of offensive macro (aka micro). Precisely how much micro is required depends on whether they can still set waypoints, or if the locusts have to be targeted manually every time. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 12 2014 22:32 ejozl wrote: That's how SC1 and WC3 worked, but honestly, we have no RNG in this game, seems silly to suddenly incorperate it in. I'd much rather prefer a range increase/decrease, depending on if your shooting down cliffs or up cliffs. This doesn't always make sense though, ex: a Spine Crawler can suddenly reach farther? doesn't add up. You can also give a -1 dmg for shooting up, as there's a cover, same reason to have the miss chance. This'll hurt Marines the most, but probably also the unit that would miss the most in real life. I dno, but the miss chance is the weaker option IMO. Agree. Miss chance shouldnt be here. Perhaps make the buffs different deponding which type of unit: Range, melee, immobile? Something which could be really cool is that abilities could become a bit stronger: Zealot charge, the autoattack after using the ability could perhaps become stronger. Ravager fire ball: The projectile could perhaps land faster. And so on. The higher the cliff(the more effect), example: A really high cliff, the projectile is really fast from the ravager. While a short cliff, the projectile is only tiny faster. Something else to perhaps consider: Units that face units up the cliff could get a debuff? Maybe not. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
I think you underestimate the difference SH not spawning locusts manually will make. At minimum, they become a form of offensive macro (aka micro). Offensive "macro" (?) =/ micro. Noone cares about who is good at pressing one butting, but rather "real" micro is how you position your units during an engagement relative to what your enemy is doing. That's why marine vs baneling is enjoyable as the terran player reacts to banelings coming in. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:17 Hider wrote: Offensive "macro" (?) =/ micro. Noone cares about who is good at pressing one butting, but rather "real" micro is how you position your units during an engagement relative to what your enemy is doing. That's why marine vs baneling is enjoyable as the terran player reacts to banelings coming in. Personally it feels zerg doesnt have much micro with banelings. Perhaps change this in lotv? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 12 2014 22:32 ejozl wrote: That's how SC1 and WC3 worked, but honestly, we have no RNG in this game, seems silly to suddenly incorperate it in. I'd much rather prefer a range increase/decrease, depending on if your shooting down cliffs or up cliffs. This doesn't always make sense though, ex: a Spine Crawler can suddenly reach farther? doesn't add up. You can also give a -1 dmg for shooting up, as there's a cover, same reason to have the miss chance. This'll hurt Marines the most, but probably also the unit that would miss the most in real life. I dno, but the miss chance is the weaker option IMO. I'm with you, no RNG! a) moderate range buff for ranged units (it works on every cliff) b) strong damage buff for melee units attacking up vs down (it only works around ramps) a) could be realized with ~15-20% rounded, i.e. +1 for marine/marauder/roach/hydraliks/stalker/VR/...; +2-3 tanks/carriers/tempest/Broodlord... b) could just take 1-2 upgrade values and add them, i.e. a zergling further up a ramp has +1-2damage; a Dark Templar up gets +5-10damage One could make special cases for an Archon to be put into the melee category if wanted. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:17 Hider wrote: Offensive "macro" (?) =/ micro. Noone cares about who is good at pressing one butting, but rather "real" micro is how you position your units during an engagement relative to what your enemy is doing. That's why marine vs baneling is enjoyable as the terran player reacts to banelings coming in. No one cares about who is good at pressing one button? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misspoke, because you cannot have implied that creep spread, larva management, and resource management in general are skills we don't value. I certainly value them. The new SH is basically a mobile offensive Hatchery. Every 50 seconds you have to build units with it and tell those units where to go. But they're vulnerable now. They don't get to hide underground. So you have to move them around to keep them out of harm's way. If you want to argue that free units are inherently bad, that's one thing. But arguing that macro units are inherently bad? What, you want us to do away with Queens, next? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:34 pure.Wasted wrote: No one cares about who is good at pressing one button? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misspoke, because you cannot have implied that creep spread, larva management, and resource management in general are skills we don't value. I certainly value them. The new SH is basically a mobile offensive Hatchery. Every 50 seconds you have to build units with it and tell those units where to go. But they're vulnerable now. They don't get to hide underground. So you have to move them around to keep them out of harm's way. If you want to argue that free units are inherently bad, that's one thing. But arguing that macro units are inherently bad? What, you want us to do away with Queens, next? I agree. There is more to the game than flashy marine splits and basic kiting. Maybe beginners don't see the beauty in good positional play, but I certainly do. These Swarm Host look like a very, VERY large threat that can work exellently in place of or in combination with mutalisk. You can use them as an offensive hatchery and attack the same location all the time, but that'd be a waste of resources and the fastest way to get rid of them as well. They require a ton of attention and planning to use well. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On November 12 2014 21:53 Maniak_ wrote: Didn't you see it in the first showmatch, still insta-killed by workers?  It was invulnerable while appearing, but with workers already around it, it still died before letting anything out. There's still work to be done to make it actually useful, but at least they're trying I thought so too, but when I rewatched, there's actually a 3 units mix of tank/cyclone that helps finish the nydus worm off as well. On November 12 2014 22:03 TheDwf wrote: Yeah, something like 20-30% chances for ranged attacks to miss. This goes against Blizzard's design goal: Incentives to go on the offense. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:38 SC2Toastie wrote: I agree. There is more to the game than flashy marine splits and basic kiting. Maybe beginners don't see the beauty in good positional play, but I certainly do. These Swarm Host look like a very, VERY large threat that can work exellently in place of or in combination with mutalisk. You can use them as an offensive hatchery and attack the same location all the time, but that'd be a waste of resources and the fastest way to get rid of them as well. They require a ton of attention and planning to use well. These new SHs kinda reming me of WC3's Meat Wagons. It's a cool concept I think | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:38 SC2Toastie wrote: I agree. There is more to the game than flashy marine splits and basic kiting. Maybe beginners don't see the beauty in good positional play, but I certainly do. These Swarm Host look like a very, VERY large threat that can work exellently in place of or in combination with mutalisk. You can use them as an offensive hatchery and attack the same location all the time, but that'd be a waste of resources and the fastest way to get rid of them as well. They require a ton of attention and planning to use well. I'm with Dwf who said that they are either still a siege weapon or a crap unit that releases locusts and from there on are just wasted useless supply for a long time. (or something along those lines) Maybe they will tune down the supply a lot so that you can have them besides a standing army, but if they stay at 3supply I can't see me running around with 30+ supply that can only fight every 50seconds and is supposed to be bad at it (according to bliz) | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
No one cares about who is good at pressing one button? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misspoke, because you cannot have implied that creep spread, larva management, and resource management in general are skills we don't value. I certainly value them. I wouldn't compare unit-design that should be about encouraging micro to macro-abilities. What the majority of viewers want to see more of is micro. So yeh, people who are good at pressing one button every 60th second isn't an exciting way of increasing the skill-cap. ' Maybe beginners don't see the beauty in good positional play, but I certainly do. Positional play is microbased when you reposition your units relative to what your enemy is doing. That's why Siege tank vs Lurker can be interesting. But pressing a button every x second and then not encouraging any micro interaction based on that is lame. If anything, this new Swarm Host promotes the opposite of positional play as it can do damage to someone with a strong defensive position without showcasing any skills. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:42 Big J wrote: I'm with Dwf who said that they are either still a siege weapon or a crap unit that releases locusts and from there on are just wasted useless supply for a long time. (or something along those lines) Maybe they will tune down the supply a lot so that you can have them besides a standing army, but if they stay at 3supply I can't see me running around with 30+ supply that can only fight every 50seconds and is supposed to be bad at it (according to bliz) Well I think with their LotV design they are precisely not designed to be 30+ supply in your army, but more like have 3-4 of them, so 9 to 12 supply, running around to harass mineral lines. I really think the idea behind the flying locust upgrade (besides making the Nimbus-style natural broken) is to make SHs a viable option to harass mineral lines. Get close to the base you want to harass, release locusts, fly them in the mineral line, profit, move your SHs to another base and repeat. With 16 workers per mineral line and 2 locusts per SH, you can have 8 locusts with 4 SHs, which should be largely enough to kill 10+ workers each time | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:40 mishimaBeef wrote: This goes against Blizzard's design goal: Incentives to go on the offense. Oh... my... God. Could we be looking at the seeds of the kernels of the potential of low ground mains in LOTV? | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:28 Big J wrote: I'm with you, no RNG! a) moderate range buff for ranged units (it works on every cliff) b) strong damage buff for melee units attacking up vs down (it only works around ramps) a) could be realized with ~15-20% rounded, i.e. +1 for marine/marauder/roach/hydraliks/stalker/VR/...; +2-3 tanks/carriers/tempest/Broodlord... b) could just take 1-2 upgrade values and add them, i.e. a zergling further up a ramp has +1-2damage; a Dark Templar up gets +5-10damage One could make special cases for an Archon to be put into the melee category if wanted. Why not just go for simplicity and add +2 range when you're on a cliff? It would be a real defenders advantage, not complicated to understand for new players and if you're worried about spines looking silly, don't apply it to them. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 12 2014 23:51 pure.Wasted wrote: Oh... my... God. Could we be looking at the seeds of the kernels of the potential of low ground mains in LOTV? Not sure i agree here tho since if units can get an advanage through positioning them out on the terrain, this could open up agression itself. This could also most likely open up more agressive openings since if u can use the terrain to your advantage=Less resources spent on defence | ||
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