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On September 17 2014 09:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +but I do have a list of maps which were pretty loved by community and players. Next thing I read is Delta Quadrant. Wtf? Nobody ever liked that map. And in terms of modern play: Natural is way to open for Protoss. The rush distance (unless forced cross) is supershort. There is no third base that you can take without killing rocks first.
So u missed my explanation about agruments for a reason? I think it's pretty ez to remove rocks from natural, and add forced cross spawns. And in the end, it gonna be almost like Nimbus :D
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Incineration Zone and Xel'Naga Caverns will always be my two favorite maps.
And Slag Pits (The funniest map ever).
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Is there any mention of team playlist maps?
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im bringing back scrap station if it kills me.
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Ofc Catz voted for Steppes of War
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Hell yeah Steppes of War.
Had some good memories there.
Drone rush was so strong.
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Shak Plat until the day I die.
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This is some generic nostalgia-hype move by Blizzard. Anyone who actually played on those maps knows that the majority of them were horrible compared to what we have today. We (the community and tournament organizers) had to fight Blizzard for years in order to get to the map rotation structure we have in place today (just listen to some old episodes of SOTG -- every other episode was bitching about the map pool). People have the misconception that old maps will be fun now because they have good memories of 2010-2011 when SC2 was at its peak.
That being said I'm not totally against the idea of reincorporating old maps, but to put it to a vote like this is probably not going to yield positive results. The masses will just vote for the most funny looking shit like steppes of war/ incineration zone because they remember some game where white-ra beat idra and he got mad. All it will do is make ladder even more frustrating for those that actually still play.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I will literally re-quit laddering if this happens. Unless they make MASSIVE overhauls to the maps, I guess I will just stop playing again or try to find somewhere to custom game.
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On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I'm fed up with that "diversity" "shake the meta" nonsense. All this "oh I'm bored with standard maps we need something new" shit ever gave us is Daedalus Point and Alterzim Stronghold. Maps can and should possess innovative features, but "vastly different points of view" are just stupid gimmicks that once in a blue moon give a gem like Habitation Station and every other time give an unplayable broken map.
Let me give you an example of the general state of PvZ in end of WoL. The only map where Mutas were ever used is Tal'Darim Altar. The reason being the hard ship of taking 3rd and the expanse of the map. A lot of games had to be played differently. The addition of Antiga expanded the Muta viable possibility to 2. Try doing any muta related 2 base harassment on other map the Protoss will either camp on 3 base or kill the Zerg. On surface Alterzim Stronghold is not much different from Emtombed Valley or Condemned Ridge until you watch Seed stage his comback. Daedalus Point is not much innovation other than the wide ramp (if you can call that innovation). Watch Billowy on Waystation (Long spawn ramp is even wider). Would you call it gimmick?
You need a map that is different to start from. I would even argue the Scrap Station spawned Klontas Mire, which may or may not relate to your blue moon that is Habitation Station. Until a map is made and played no meta can develop from it. Simple things like the location and width of natural ramp is developed by trial and error, not from build orders. The map maker can attempt to make FFE at least possible but he should not have such constraint. In the natural bases without a ramp marines will get kited to death by stalkers. But we have Deadwing and Overgrowth where the lack of such feature is mitigated by map size.
How do you define gimmicks? All those little things add up to a map.
On September 17 2014 09:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:
A map should aimed at simple things like being balanced, promoting counter-attack based and positional play, and not favoring any strategy to the point of becoming dull. You don't need to "shake the meta" to do such things.
All those ideas are not "simple things" at all. To promote counter-attack you need to have more economical path. If the attacker travels longer to attack one location from different path while the defender has a shorter travel the location (not the map) is to have a defender's advantage. This sounds simple. But add in the constrains of "you need to take a defensible third", a ramp has to be with in certain distance from the natural, you cannot have more than 3 ways to blink in/ fly in, you cannot have too many ramps chock points, you cannot do without chokes at strategic locations etc. "Standard" maps essentially limited to a map that cannot have 3rds next to each other (Deadwing on Cross Spawn), natural ramps has to be far enough from each other while the additional 4+ bases has to be closer to each other (or your "counter-attack" will become base trade), aerial/cliff distance cannot be too far from walking distance (think scrap station to habitation station, why this constraint even exist?).
What is positional play? On one hand you want to be able to defend with smaller number against counter attacks while your strategic force move to strategic sources you going to have ramps. The other being using small forces to catch larger defending forces' attention thus enabling larger attack force to find an opening. Maps with more curved paths and chokes is the most effective at thwart any blunt forces (zergs, marine timings, non-blink gateway timings) but making any (non-zerg) defensive strategy effective.
One can argue the current map pool is favoring any strategy beyond 1 base. Whether that is dull is up to personal taste. 4 gate in all match up is equally "dull".
Finnaly, you do not have to play those maps for longer than 3 month.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 17 2014 09:08 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Cloud Kingdom was awesome, Frost was one of the very best maps in sc2 history, Entombed Valley was also a pretty damn good macro map, for example these 3 maps fits current meta perfectly. Wanna go deeper? We had Crevasse and Terminus, which are both also macro-oriented and fits also fine, and they are old! Akilon or Belshir Vestige were bad? Akilon is not a threat anymore vs Protoss since MSC vision was nerfed. Ohana is one of the very "comfortable" maps of all time were also loved by many players. Stepps of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Shakuras Plateau, Delta Quadrant, Metalopolis, Lost Temple, Desert Oasis, Taldarim Altar and Scrap Station were bad? I mean, srsly bad considering that we got Foxtrot labs in current season?  P.S. I do belive, many pro-players would feel a nostalgia playing those old maps, for all those moments they passed with game, as well as many other non-pro. Touchy feelings are great, and btw it gonna be for a single season, so it's fine, I just hope that few the most played maps of season 1 in 2015 will remain in season 2.
Foxtrot Labs is better than every map you listed except maybe Crevasse and Entombed Valley, Frost?
Crevasse is basically Nimbus but probably slightly better for terran (as if that was needed).
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I would love to see Akilon Wastes come back.
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Metalopolis, whirlwind, bel shir vestige,
Can the op list all the maps that have been used?
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I loved Metalopolis. Xel'naga Caverns would also be cool.
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whirlwind my love, come back to me <3
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My seven maps:
1.- Whirlwind: Best macro map ever.
2.- Metalopolis: Just for the lulz, make it like 2010 (no cross positions).
3.- Tal'darim Altar: The version without the rocks at the third.
4.- Cloud Kingdom: Oh, the good times... the zerg tyranny...
5.- Frost: Yeah, keep it.
6.- Polar Night: Best map of hots only imo.
7.- Steppes of war: The map where real men were forged.
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Dominican Republic622 Posts
On September 17 2014 02:53 Ovid wrote:
Give Steppes of war, I want to 6 pool to GM.
I would like to see this map too.
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Dominican Republic622 Posts
On September 17 2014 10:54 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I loved Metalopolis. Xel'naga Caverns would also be cool.
yeah bring the on!!!
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I actually wonder why they stop at 7? Seems like as an off season they don't really need to have such a coherent or concise map pool. Why not have even more maps, 10, 12, 15? You could just add more vetoes to counteract how large it might be. I think it would be fun to have a really, really big map pool like that.
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EPT
