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On September 15 2014 19:48 SatedSC2 wrote:
This would be terrible.
WCS points are part of the build up to Blizzard's premier individual competition. They shouldn't be given out in a team competition.
yep,
also i feel like all this korean tournaments ONLY for koreans should not give any points at all (even wec etc) because koreans also travel to foreign tournaments to get points, and get them in the kor only too thats just ... wrong on so many levels
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I really don't get the hate that Blizzard is getting for such a pragmatic solution.
- WCS points should reward individual play, not team play : no, WCS points should reward skilled players, regardless of them playing in individual or team leagues
- This would encourage suboptimal PL coach decisions : no, it can be entirely avoided by setting up a correct point structure. For example, 50 points for each win, 25 points for each loss. Being fielded every single game may be counterproductive when compared to sniping specific opponents
- This is unfair, non-KR players can't get these points : no, let's be pragmatic, it's not like everyone can access all WCS points anyways. Currently the main winners of WCS are people who get sent to every tournament (Hyun, Jjakji, Snute, MC...). And if you don't want to be pragmatic, don't forget StatePrime
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Totally doesnt make sense
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Just to add onto point 1: proleague teams already send out their best players, because even without WCS point incentive, they do everything they can to win.
C'mon there's much more strategy to the teamleagues than this. The things points could have effect on; consider if KT wants Flash at Blizzcon and lets say he's very few points from getting there. They might send out snipers to take out the big shot, from the other team, to ensure Flash sweeping the rest of the team that is not a threat.
We could have a situation where a player will be sent out, even though it's probably not the best choice. It's just more variables that can sway the coach.
Just make the WCS main event be:
top 4 proleague performers.
top 4 korean region on WCS points.
top 4 EU region on WCS points.
top 4 US region on WCS points.
Why should Korea have more spots by default than other entire regions? BlizzCon is about crowning the World Champion, this includes all of the World.
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We need more "korean Koreans" at Blizzcon. If PL gives WCS points i´m in for that. But i wish that not only 16 but 32 players could participate at Blizzcon... :-/
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IF, and only IF Blizzard wants WCS to be a truely fair tournament to determine the world's best player, they should make one tournament for each region (region locked!) and remove all WCS points that do not come from original WCS. There'll always be unfairness else.
Another approach would be to split points: a) points from WCS only (eg WCS AM), b) points from WCS tournaments, eg. Dreamhack/IEM.
Instead of having 3 global finals per year, we could have 3 local finals, the "global final", the true one, would be Blizzcon then.
4 spots WCS KR
4 spots WCS AM
4 spots WCS EU
4 spots WCS tournaments
But don't start giving WCS points for restricted team leagues.
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I think there is a number of better ways to achieve better representation of the highest-skilled players in the finals:
- More Korean-based tournaments with WCS points (open to the whole world of course, just like DHs and IEMs, but we know they are almost dominated by Korea-based Koreans.
- Now that the regions are locked, a system skewing the # of places in the finals for each region according to this region's players' performance in past finals, much like Europe sending more teams to the football world cup than Asia.
- Most importantly, work primarily with KeSPA but also other tournament organizers. The purpose would be to integrate proleague and WCS-points tournaments in a set schedule without conflicts AND to encourage KeSPA to change their stance on sending players to other tournaments. This would probably stop the bleeding of major players from KeSPA (which, of course, remains to be confirmed - we don't yet know for sure if all these major names will end up in non-KeSPA teams).
On the other hand, rewarding players for their performance in a closed team league is a clumsy and reactive patch. Although I would LOVE to see the 2 finalists of Proelague and the 2 winners of the most prestigious team leagues outside of Proleague to meet for a team WCS finals in Blizzcon.
And, of course, for me the biggest problem remains the fact that the best players from different regions (MC, Hyun, Taeja, Polt, Rain, Parting, Soo, Flash etc) do not meet often enough throughout the year.
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On September 15 2014 20:54 Elroi wrote:
this would be great for both parts imo. its just stupid that we may have a season finals without maybe the three best players in the world. blizzard can't afford that and neither can kespa.
"Best players in the world".
Best at what? Not at WCS point collection, that's for sure.
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Well at least people can stop complaining about the illegitimacy of WCS rankings if this happens. I really don't like it, as proleague is not an open tournament and not even an individual tournament. It really has very little to do with WCS.
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On September 16 2014 17:28 ejozl wrote:The things points could have effect on; consider if KT wants Flash at Blizzcon and lets say he's very few points from getting there. They might send out snipers to take out the big shot, from the other team, to ensure Flash sweeping the rest of the team that is not a threat.
except proleague only uses the all-kill format for the playoffs, baring a(nother) change. and lets pretend in some magical world 1) KT will tailor their entire strategy around Flash, and 2) that they wouldn't normally do this--so what? Flash still has to beat proleague players, which is a shit load more to ask of him than at least half of the people that will be at blizzcon this year. so it's ok for jjakji to beat local players at Dreamhack X, but not ok for Flash to beat the best players in the world?
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I don't think there's any viable 100 % fair structure that accommodates every player in every part of the world. That said, awarding points for a team league seems dubious at best.
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On September 16 2014 17:28 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Just to add onto point 1: proleague teams already send out their best players, because even without WCS point incentive, they do everything they can to win. C'mon there's much more strategy to the teamleagues than this. The things points could have effect on; consider if KT wants Flash at Blizzcon and lets say he's very few points from getting there. They might send out snipers to take out the big shot, from the other team, to ensure Flash sweeping the rest of the team that is not a threat. We could have a situation where a player will be sent out, even though it's probably not the best choice. It's just more variables that can sway the coach. Show nested quote +Just make the WCS main event be:
top 4 proleague performers.
top 4 korean region on WCS points.
top 4 EU region on WCS points.
top 4 US region on WCS points.
Why should Korea have more spots by default than other entire regions? BlizzCon is about crowning the World Champion, this includes all of the World.
Why does FIBA world championship have 7 seeds from europe and only 2 from australia and oceania?
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The goal of WCS has never been to find the 16 best players in the world and have them compete at blizzcon. The goal appears to have always have been (whether stated or not) to find the best players from each of the 3 regions and then have them compete. Personally I have always felt that such a goal works better if they picked the top 32 but I understand both the time and financial constraints that limit there ability to do this.
In a perfect world though it would be 32 people you could have your foreigner hype with most being out in first 2 rounds with 1-2 possibly making it to the Ro8 and adding some exciting underdog elements to everything and setting up a terrific grand final.
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On September 16 2014 19:45 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 20:54 Elroi wrote:
this would be great for both parts imo. its just stupid that we may have a season finals without maybe the three best players in the world. blizzard can't afford that and neither can kespa. "Best players in the world". Best at what? Not at WCS point collection, that's for sure.
best at starcraft 2.
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On September 16 2014 17:02 Drake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 19:48 SatedSC2 wrote:
This would be terrible.
WCS points are part of the build up to Blizzard's premier individual competition. They shouldn't be given out in a team competition. yep, also i feel like all this korean tournaments ONLY for koreans should not give any points at all (even wec etc) because koreans also travel to foreign tournaments to get points, and get them in the kor only too thats just ... wrong on so many levels
By that logic should we force foreigners to play in Korean tournaments to get WCS points? It's not a Korean tournament only for koreans, it's a korean tournament foreign teams feel is too much of a financial commitment to play in in terms of risk-reward and since the level of competition is so high. There's dozens of small Foreign offlines I'm sure Kespa players would love to play in for easy money, but it's just not economically feasible.
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On September 16 2014 17:02 Drake wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 19:48 SatedSC2 wrote:
This would be terrible.
WCS points are part of the build up to Blizzard's premier individual competition. They shouldn't be given out in a team competition. yep, also i feel like all this korean tournaments ONLY for koreans should not give any points at all (even wec etc) because koreans also travel to foreign tournaments to get points, and get them in the kor only too thats just ... wrong on so many levels
WCS is a system to find the WORLD CHAMPION, not the fans favourite, deal with it
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On September 16 2014 05:03 Advantageous wrote:
what are the foreign teams joining proleague doe?
Probably none. Unless we see a team from Taiwan or China join. But I really can't see any Western team competing.
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blizzard really wants to make sure that God can go to blizzcon next year
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On September 16 2014 19:54 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 17:28 ejozl wrote:The things points could have effect on; consider if KT wants Flash at Blizzcon and lets say he's very few points from getting there. They might send out snipers to take out the big shot, from the other team, to ensure Flash sweeping the rest of the team that is not a threat. except proleague only uses the all-kill format for the playoffs, baring a(nother) change. and lets pretend in some magical world 1) KT will tailor their entire strategy around Flash, and 2) that they wouldn't normally do this--so what? Flash still has to beat proleague players, which is a shit load more to ask of him than at least half of the people that will be at blizzcon this year. so it's ok for jjakji to beat local players at Dreamhack X, but not ok for Flash to beat the best players in the world?
The issue is not that this player gets to go to Blizzcon, but that it delegitimizes Proleague, even if just a bit.
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EPT
