EPTIf they are allowed to do their own map pool modifications, I'm all for it.
Beside that, Korea needs some easy WCS point to keep the player from retiring once they are out of the GSL.
2015 Season of Proleague may award WCS points. - Page 12
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
algue
France1436 Posts
If they are allowed to do their own map pool modifications, I'm all for it. Beside that, Korea needs some easy WCS point to keep the player from retiring once they are out of the GSL. | ||
|
Wasaru
United States91 Posts
At the end of the day this change would be replacing worse players for better players. Even if there were tournaments in Korea, none of the foreigners and very few of the koreigners would even have a chance of making top 8, so I still don't understand the logic. | ||
|
Wasaru
United States91 Posts
On September 16 2014 21:40 Liquid`Snute wrote: does people want foreign tournaments (dreamhack, red bull, iem) to have zero kespa players throughout the year and then have the kespa gods show up in wcs global finals? surely if i was making something like 6000$ per month i would treat myself an airline ticket to a foreign event or two. it's nice as a foreigner to get the chance to play against kespa more than once per year. If you're asking if I want to watch you all in Flash 5 times in a row, or mass swarm hosts in hour long games against HerO, than the answer is a resounding NO | ||
|
Gaskal
Canada241 Posts
You want to cheer for foreigners (real ones, not Koreigners)? Sure. But don't expect them to ever crack the top 16 in Blizzcon unless they're able to challenge the A-level Koreans more consistently (Scarlett, Snute). Makes much more sense than the current WCS points system anyway. And at least we won't have to see Catz's preaching of "no mechanical difference" garbage. | ||
|
-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
Then again I still think the WCS system is very poor in and of itself. It helps with putting a proper storyline across the multitudes of tournaments around the world in general but that's about it. Integrating it into Korea in particular heavily undermines the GSL as THE crucial tournament in and of itself. (Not to mention that KeSPA and its obsession solely with Proleague has been singularly unhealthy for SC2 as a whole given how it forces teams to keep their players "at home" and focused entirely on one team-based tournament that lasts an absurdly long time. As I understood it the point of WCS as a whole was to PREVENT that kind of setup where players get pigeonholed and to encourage wider participation in the scene...hence the points for Dreamhacks, etc.) | ||
|
Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On September 15 2014 21:26 Wroshe wrote: hmm, I would be vehemently opposed to this. This would mean that WCS points from here on in are not earned on merit but on whether your coach fields you or not. It also rubs me the wrong way that people feel a need to compensate people who made a financial choice to sign for a Kespa team, damn well knowing that it would cost them WCS points. They made a choice and it has a disadvantage, oh noes, we must take that disadvantage away! Yes, currently WCS points are earned on merit and totally not based on who has the most money to send players to events. The current system is totally merit based 100%. Oh wait, it's money and time based. If you have the time and money, you can go to more events, you can earn more points. If you don't have the time or money, you can't go to events so you can't earn points. You seem to have a rose tinted view of how the current WCS points system works to the point you ignore how it actually works and imagine that it's currently a merit based system. Not saying that being opposed is bad, only that your justification is entirely off-base because the current system is not at all merit based. | ||
|
Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
I could get behind that. | ||
|
Thax
Belgium1060 Posts
On September 17 2014 00:47 Lonyo wrote: Yes, currently WCS points are earned on merit and totally not based on who has the most money to send players to events. The current system is totally merit based 100%. Oh wait, it's money and time based. If you have the time and money, you can go to more events, you can earn more points. If you don't have the time or money, you can't go to events so you can't earn points. You seem to have a rose tinted view of how the current WCS points system works to the point you ignore how it actually works and imagine that it's currently a merit based system. Not saying that being opposed is bad, only that your justification is entirely off-base because the current system is not at all merit based. So, you're really trying to tell me that the KeSPA teams are the poor teams without money? Please ... They're directly sponsored by airliners and telecom companies. And time? That's a matter of priorities. If you don't prioritize WCS events over Proleague, I really don't see why you should be eligible for attending the WCS finals. | ||
|
Thax
Belgium1060 Posts
On September 16 2014 16:06 Elroi wrote: Because as it is now the system is fucked. Arguably the three best players in the world arent in top 16 (if you go by the power rank). This is a huge problem both for kespa and blizzard. Its a problem for blizzard because their tournament is in no way going to be the most competitive and interesting of the year and its a problem for kespa since they get less exposure for the sponsors. Now why does blizzard care about kespa? Because sc2 needs the korean scene. If kespa and their infrastructure goes down, sc2 most pobably is going to disappear with it along with a big chunk of foreign fans of korean sc2. Blizzcon with the current top 16 WOULD be the most interesting and stacked tournament of the year. The only one similar was the KeSPA cup, which had for the majority overlapping players with WCS top 16 and a couple of KeSPA B-teamers instead of the extra "foreign Koreans" and 1 foreigner fan favourites. That's much better ... not. A bunch of the best players of the world weren't there either (Maru, Innovation, ...) and some top players dropped out in the first round against "lesser" Koreans (Rain, soO, ...) (which is also part of the reason they're outside the current top 16 incidentally.) So I don't really see Blizzard's "problem". And a problem for KeSPA? Well, yea, that's a problem for KeSPA. Let them solve it. Plenty of options. I vote for more WCS tournaments in Korea. | ||
|
Thax
Belgium1060 Posts
:/ He wasn't in KeSPA Cup. Neither were Maru, Soulkey, Innovation, Life, Solar, ... Damn noobs, all of them. | ||
|
Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On September 17 2014 02:07 Thax wrote: So, you're really trying to tell me that the KeSPA teams are the poor teams without money? Please ... They're directly sponsored by airliners and telecom companies. And time? That's a matter of priorities. If you don't prioritize WCS events over Proleague, I really don't see why you should be eligible for attending the WCS finals. You are ignoring the way the Korean scene works and seem to think it should work the way the rest of the world does. Dysfuntionally with no real team league, but lots of individual competitions. The whole point is Korea is totally different, and why the hell would a Korea domestic company spend money to send players abroad? "Yay, lets use our marketing money to send Flash to the US, that will bring us lots of sponsorship ROI because of all those Americans who will now sign up with KT... oh wait they can't". JinAir is also a localised low cost brand of Korean Air, because the sponsorship is to promote the brand to relevant people, being Koreans who would fly with the low cost carrier. If it was Korean Air, then it might have more global value to promote players outside Korea. It seems you don't grasp WHY these companies sponsor proleague teams, and hence why they don't send lots of players abroad. You also only pick out a few teams out of the proleague teams, and ignore the ones with little or no sponsorship. Once again bringing me back to my point, you need money and/or time. You are saying that it's merit based, and then saying that KT or SKT or JinAir could send players to events. What about Prime or MVP? Where's your goddamn meritocracy there when only the rich teams can send players? You: WCS should continue as a meritocracy and Koreans shouldn't get points just because the coaches decide to play them. My response to you: The current system isn't a meritocracy because you need money to get to events. Your response to that: Rich teams could afford to send players to events. Right, so we agree? The current WCS system isn't a meritocracy and money is the key driver behind people being able to participate. Oh, and if the teams decided to send some players to WCS point scoring events, such as IEM, then.. like... wouldn't that be the coaches deciding who gets the points? Just like if you give WCS points for proleague. You haven't made an argument that's strung together with what you are trying to put forward. It's not a meritocracy, it's money driven, and the coaches decide who gets the points in your "ideal" world. In the world where Proleague gives points, it is a meritocracy and coaches decide who gets points. So really, the current system is worse and less equal and equitable than a proposed Proleague-WCS points system. | ||
|
Thax
Belgium1060 Posts
On September 16 2014 23:37 brickrd wrote: your argument makes no sense because giving points to proleague isnt going to make it 'kespa 2.0." if anything its just going to be the same list except with players like MC and Hyun further toward the middle/bottom and guys like rain or maru appearing, which would be amazing and good. international koreans will still be there, it will just be less easy for them. what does it matter who "creates the opportunities" when the result is the same? if blizzard has the resources to do it and wants to do it then who gives a fuck whether kespa is making the opportunities? i sure dont. you seem to think there needs to be a duality between "supporting korean scene" and competing internationally and theres no reason for that because blizzard is clearly happy to do it and there is no drawback. what kespa does or what the players do has nothing to do with anything because its better for everyone if proleague players are able to score points. you are arguing against a hallucinated dream scenario where the top 16 is just a list of the top proleague performers and that will obviously never happen, its a paranoid anti-korean nightmare that doesnt exist both antiforeigner and antikorean fans always seem to dream up this version of the scene where the korean scene is separate and unrelated to "the international scene." it is all tied together. just because you dont care to watch kespa players or some other guy doesnt care to watch foreigners those opinions dont invalidate their relevancy to the scene. they are all important and tying them all closer together is a good thing and a step forward I don't think there needs to be such a duality at all. Every Korean participating in the international scene is more than welcome at Blizzcon as far as I'm concerned, KeSPA player or not. It is after all the grand final of the international season. My problem exist where people want to invent ways to get Koreans at Blizzcon who DON'T participate in the international scene. I haven't seen one convincing argument yet how that "would be better for everyone". Better for those players and KeSPA yes, I fail to see what everyone else gains by it. My problem isn't Koreans, or even KeSPA Koreans in the international scene at all, I count some among my favourite players. If the WCS top 16 exists out of 16 KeSPA Koreans because they rolled all the the international tournaments for the year then so be it. More power to them.I agree that more integration is good. The problem I have here is Blizzard going out of their way to cater to KeSPA to create that integration, giving artificial advantages to players/teams who can't be bothered to be there the rest of the year. IMO the responsibility falls to KeSPA to integrate themselves and participate in the international scene, not treat it as an afterthought and then get all the rewards at Blizzcon anyway. | ||
|
Thax
Belgium1060 Posts
On September 17 2014 02:45 Lonyo wrote: You are ignoring the way the Korean scene works and seem to think it should work the way the rest of the world does. Dysfuntionally with no real team league, but lots of individual competitions. The whole point is Korea is totally different, and why the hell would a Korea domestic company spend money to send players abroad? "Yay, lets use our marketing money to send Flash to the US, that will bring us lots of sponsorship ROI because of all those Americans who will now sign up with KT... oh wait they can't". JinAir is also a localised low cost brand of Korean Air, because the sponsorship is to promote the brand to relevant people, being Koreans who would fly with the low cost carrier. If it was Korean Air, then it might have more global value to promote players outside Korea. It seems you don't grasp WHY these companies sponsor proleague teams, and hence why they don't send lots of players abroad. You also only pick out a few teams out of the proleague teams, and ignore the ones with little or no sponsorship. Once again bringing me back to my point, you need money and/or time. You are saying that it's merit based, and then saying that KT or SKT or JinAir could send players to events. What about Prime or MVP? Where's your goddamn meritocracy there when only the rich teams can send players? You: WCS should continue as a meritocracy and Koreans shouldn't get points just because the coaches decide to play them. My response to you: The current system isn't a meritocracy because you need money to get to events. Your response to that: Rich teams could afford to send players to events. Right, so we agree? The current WCS system isn't a meritocracy and money is the key driver behind people being able to participate. Oh, and if the teams decided to send some players to WCS point scoring events, such as IEM, then.. like... wouldn't that be the coaches deciding who gets the points? Just like if you give WCS points for proleague. You haven't made an argument that's strung together with what you are trying to put forward. It's not a meritocracy, it's money driven, and the coaches decide who gets the points in your "ideal" world. In the world where Proleague gives points, it is a meritocracy and coaches decide who gets points. So really, the current system is worse and less equal and equitable than a proposed Proleague-WCS points system. I pick out a few teams to make my point? You named 2, out of 8. 2 who are still plenty rich when compared to the majority of the foreign teams. Another of the sponsors is goddamn SAMSUNG. I understand perfectly well how the Korean scene works and why those companies sponsor proleague and don't send players abroad. My point is that they could if they wanted to. Obviously they don't. My point is that given all that, I fail to see why they should get special treatment to get more representation at what is the crowning event of the international scene. I never said anything about coaches or whatever, I think you're mixing up responses. | ||
|
ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On September 17 2014 00:37 Gaskal wrote: Kespa does have much better talent due to its regimented structure, so I do like this change - the foreign tournament attendees will really have to be consistent - like on the level of Polt, Taeja, HyuN kind of consistent to stay up there with the Kespa crowd. You want to cheer for foreigners (real ones, not Koreigners)? Sure. But don't expect them to ever crack the top 16 in Blizzcon unless they're able to challenge the A-level Koreans more consistently (Scarlett, Snute). Makes much more sense than the current WCS points system anyway. And at least we won't have to see Catz's preaching of "no mechanical difference" garbage. I've never said there's no mechanical difference, I've said the oppossite, but feel free to twist my words as much as you want | ||
|
zerosouL
Poland11 Posts
| ||
|
mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
the best win%? maybe | ||
|
Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
On September 17 2014 04:42 mikumegurine wrote: wonder hot they going to distribute the points the best win%? maybe Could award points per individual win, per match win, per round win, how each team places at the end of a round, etc. | ||
|
usethis2
2164 Posts
| ||
|
cheekymonkey
France1387 Posts
| ||
|
algue
France1436 Posts
On September 17 2014 05:46 Zenbrez wrote: Could award points per individual win, per match win, per round win, how each team places at the end of a round, etc. WCS point per win would be the funniest imo  | ||
| ||
