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On July 24 2014 10:35 Faust852 wrote:
I don't think it was the intention of Blizzard to remove these kind of micro ability. They just make the game and it happens that you couldn't abuse the IA the same way. And they don't want to modify it back because well, it took them 4 years to revert a patch they did, they are way too pride for admitting they did things wrong.
But you don't have to change the AI to make the moving-shot micro optimally. In Starbow, you do the same type of Muta-micro as in BW (works slightly different ofc, but it's there). How was that done?
1) 3.5 range (from the 3 in BW)
2) Lower seperation radius (so they clump up more).
The latter though isn't actually dead neccesary You can still make Mutalisks efficiently kite stimmed Marines in Sc2, but that requires an increase in Mutalisks range from 3 to 4.5 (again, I am not making stuff up, I have tested this quite extensively. All the micro-interactions I described in my post are possible, and I listed all the changes needed for that to happen).
The advantage of increasing the range of Mutalisks is that you can reduce Mutalisk HP/regeneration as a compensation and then Mutalisk suddenly become more vulnerable to Psy Storms. But instead, they become better in lower numbers and also better when you micro them very well. Sc2 Mutalisks aren't what I would call a microunit, but more of a multitaskbased unit. When you choose to engage with it, all you can do is really just to focus fire. But with a 4.5 range it becomes effective to move in, go back and move in against stimed Marines. So you never just wanna amove them at any point in time.
For all other air units, they have damage points. I am very much against that as it means they have to stop for x seconds before they can shoot. Damage point is IMO one of the biggest destroyers of "moving-based" micro as it becomes more practical to just stand still with the unit during an engagement. But that can easily be changed in the editor.
Oracle has the worst type of unit control of any air unit as it has low acceleration/low turning rate. Again, that is easily changed in the editor. From my perspective it looked like Blizzard wanted to experiemnt with a new air design to protoss: Super high DPS, but make it have a very poor control, so it was "difficult" control. But unfortunately, the difficult to control-element meant that it became unmicroable.
I think quite early in HOTS beta, it should have been obvious that the experiemnt didn't work, and IMO they should definitely have made the Oracle a moving-shot unit before HOTS was released.
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I agree with you that units should be weaker in general but the more you miccro them, the best they become. That's the best way to raise the skill ceiling of the game, and it's very impressive from a spectator POV. But you heard what DKim thought about it. It's no use to talk about it because they are blinded by their incompetence and pride.
Even now when they say "we are listening to the community", they do shit that aren't that much relevent to the real problems.
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I'm pretty sure the message about micro potential etc has taken its time to sink in but is doing so and that we'll have some pleasant surprises when LotV is announced.
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On July 24 2014 10:51 Faust852 wrote:
I agree with you that units should be weaker in general but the more you miccro them, the best they become. That's the best way to raise the skill ceiling of the game, and it's very impressive from a spectator POV. But you heard what DKim thought about it. It's no use to talk about it because they are blinded by their incompetence and pride.
Even now when they say "we are listening to the community", they do !@#$%^&* that aren't that much relevent to the real problems.
Yeh maybe. Though my theory is still this:
- WOL = All devs were relatively ignorant of game-design when this game was released. But over the last 4 years, they have learned alot and should now be more comepetent than ever.
For most of WOL, game was pretty popular and when they developed HOTS they saw no reason to risk messing up what appeared to be a pretty solid game. Further, ppl like DB might also have had a negative influence on some of the unit-designs.
For LOTV, we have David Kim who at least is a decent player and he is responsible for making an expansion to a game where most people wants to see bigger changes. Unlike when HOTS was developed, there isn't as much to lose anymore, so Blizzard might be willing to gamble a bit more.
Again, the gamble here doesn't have to be removal of existing untis or complete redesigns/new races etc. But rather, just looking overall the stats of various units and trying to refine them in order to create new interactions.
I actually don't think it's that time-consuming giving that it's a full-time job, so from a ressource-perspective, it's still within what Blizzard would allow the Sc2-team to spend time on.
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I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it.
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On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it.
Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear.
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On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear.
I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed.
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On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed.
It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine.
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On July 24 2014 14:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed. It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine.
Yeah, it just require a huge amount of balancing and even in LotV it would take ages to make it works.
Imho the best way would be that you can't produce certain units in WG mode. A bit like terran can't produce marauders with reactor. It would help considerably in the late game too when a protoss can't morph archon directly in front your base.
Edit : Actually I just come with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I think this idea is brillant.
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On July 24 2014 14:47 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 14:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed. It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine. Yeah, it just require a huge amount of balancing and even in LotV it would take ages to make it works. Imho the best way would be that you can't produce certain units in WG mode. A bit like terran can't produce marauders with reactor. It would help considerably in the late game too when a protoss can't morph archon directly in front your base. Edit : Actually I just come with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I think this idea is brillant.
Yeah, like blink stalker. They are scarry because of warpgate not the ability itself.
I have read some random suggestion somewhere that they should take templar of the warpgate and buff it's movement a little bit. This kind of thing sound good( at least for terran like me) but it would take a lot of test and i would not hope for this kind of change even in Lotv.
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On July 24 2014 14:58 pedduck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 14:47 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 14:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed. It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine. Yeah, it just require a huge amount of balancing and even in LotV it would take ages to make it works. Imho the best way would be that you can't produce certain units in WG mode. A bit like terran can't produce marauders with reactor. It would help considerably in the late game too when a protoss can't morph archon directly in front your base. Edit : Actually I just come with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I think this idea is brillant. Yeah, like blink stalker. They are scarry because of warpgate not the ability itself. I have read some random suggestion somewhere that they should take templar of the warpgate and buff it's movement a little bit. This kind of thing sound good( at least for terran like me) but it would take a lot of test and i would not hope for this kind of change even in Lotv.
Neh, Blink stalker are cool, even off WG. The problem is that it comes too soon, adding 30s to Blink research would help a lot.
Not being able to produce HT and DT from WG but only from gateway would make the game pretty cool, with proxy gate for dt rush and stuff.
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The terran whine is so strong these days, as if they think WoL was a balanced game (it was the worst in sc2 history).
They say, get rid of warpgate.. but no mention that they can heal their units (medivacs) or mules that boost their economy for free. The bias is so strong that no wonder DK has little feedback that is actually useful.
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On July 24 2014 15:09 Parcelleus wrote:
The terran whine is so strong these days, as if they think WoL was a balanced game (it was the worst in sc2 history).
They say, get rid of warpgate.. but no mention that they can heal their units (medivacs) or mules that boost their economy for free. The bias is so strong that no wonder DK has little feedback that is actually useful.
Lol what? Even protoss want a redesign of Warp gate... And TvP WoL was more than balanced, it was also a fun game, with a lot of diversity in midgame. And PvT is far from being balanced now.
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On July 24 2014 15:11 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 15:09 Parcelleus wrote:
The terran whine is so strong these days, as if they think WoL was a balanced game (it was the worst in sc2 history).
They say, get rid of warpgate.. but no mention that they can heal their units (medivacs) or mules that boost their economy for free. The bias is so strong that no wonder DK has little feedback that is actually useful. Lol what? Even protoss want a redesign of Warp gate... And TvP WoL was more than balanced, it was also a fun game, with a lot of diversity in midgame. And PvT is far from being balanced now.
lol what ?
They do ? You represent all protoss do you ?
TvP in WoL was a joke. Hence why PO was introduced to fix terran ear;ly game OPness. PvT is much better now than WoL and the stats prove it.
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On July 24 2014 14:47 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 14:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed. It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine. Yeah, it just require a huge amount of balancing and even in LotV it would take ages to make it works. Imho the best way would be that you can't produce certain units in WG mode. A bit like terran can't produce marauders with reactor. It would help considerably in the late game too when a protoss can't morph archon directly in front your base. Edit : Actually I just come with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I think this idea is brillant.
That's how Starbow approached it, you can warp in everything except dragoons, which are your all around medium combat unit and necessary in pretty much every MU. I think the idea is worth exploring.
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On July 24 2014 15:17 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 15:11 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 15:09 Parcelleus wrote:
The terran whine is so strong these days, as if they think WoL was a balanced game (it was the worst in sc2 history).
They say, get rid of warpgate.. but no mention that they can heal their units (medivacs) or mules that boost their economy for free. The bias is so strong that no wonder DK has little feedback that is actually useful. Lol what? Even protoss want a redesign of Warp gate... And TvP WoL was more than balanced, it was also a fun game, with a lot of diversity in midgame. And PvT is far from being balanced now. lol what ? They do ? You represent all protoss do you ? TvP in WoL was a joke. Hence why PO was introduced to fix terran ear;ly game OPness. PvT is much better now than WoL and the stats prove it.
And you are calling me biased. I don't even want to argue with you. Enjoy easy wins while you still can.
On July 24 2014 15:18 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 14:47 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 14:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed. It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine. Yeah, it just require a huge amount of balancing and even in LotV it would take ages to make it works. Imho the best way would be that you can't produce certain units in WG mode. A bit like terran can't produce marauders with reactor. It would help considerably in the late game too when a protoss can't morph archon directly in front your base. Edit : Actually I just come with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I think this idea is brillant. That's how Starbow approached it, you can warp in everything except dragoons, which are your all around medium combat unit and necessary in pretty much every MU. I think the idea is worth exploring.
Tbh I never got into the StarBow train but this another good reason to explore this idea if it works on SB.
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On July 24 2014 15:19 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 15:17 Parcelleus wrote:On July 24 2014 15:11 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 15:09 Parcelleus wrote:
The terran whine is so strong these days, as if they think WoL was a balanced game (it was the worst in sc2 history).
They say, get rid of warpgate.. but no mention that they can heal their units (medivacs) or mules that boost their economy for free. The bias is so strong that no wonder DK has little feedback that is actually useful. Lol what? Even protoss want a redesign of Warp gate... And TvP WoL was more than balanced, it was also a fun game, with a lot of diversity in midgame. And PvT is far from being balanced now. lol what ? They do ? You represent all protoss do you ? TvP in WoL was a joke. Hence why PO was introduced to fix terran ear;ly game OPness. PvT is much better now than WoL and the stats prove it. And you are calling me biased. I don't even want to argue with you. Enjoy easy wins while you still can. Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 15:18 Squat wrote:On July 24 2014 14:47 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 14:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed. It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine. Yeah, it just require a huge amount of balancing and even in LotV it would take ages to make it works. Imho the best way would be that you can't produce certain units in WG mode. A bit like terran can't produce marauders with reactor. It would help considerably in the late game too when a protoss can't morph archon directly in front your base. Edit : Actually I just come with this idea, but the more I think about it, the more I think this idea is brillant. That's how Starbow approached it, you can warp in everything except dragoons, which are your all around medium combat unit and necessary in pretty much every MU. I think the idea is worth exploring. Tbh I never got into the StarBow train but this another good reason to explore this idea if it works on SB.
Enjoy your biased whining.
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On July 23 2014 02:55 Hider wrote:
Most interested to see whether WIdow Mine becomes good vs Collosus-based play.
WM is absolutely terrible vs anything until you get the fast digging in skill. Then it's just a matter of high numbers. The splash radius change doesn't change the fact that it's easy to pick off before it fires, and thus you need high numbers of them in a single spot to ensure killing units later in the game. All the races have learned to turn those mines into 1-shot vs the cheapest unit they have or dead before firing lately, so they're often a waste unless you actually mass a lot of them and bury them with speed upgrade.
On July 24 2014 14:44 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 11:15 Faust852 wrote:On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 24 2014 11:06 Faust852 wrote:
I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it. Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear. I think WG is a cool mechanic. But it's poorly designed. It's pretty easy to fix. Just make warping in cost more cooldown than producing from regular gateways and it's just fine.
The only problem with that is that Protoss players would whine and whine. My objection is that a mechanic which makes a race much stronger by virtue of being able to instantly put units anywhere and instantly harass (especially with cloaked units) should take slightly MORE time than the gates that pump units.
Either that, or it should cost 50 minerals a piece to convert a GW into a WG. GW's should cost 200 for the fact of being stronger than their brood war counterpart, but I don't think it's good to make the GW cost 200 straight up, 150 + 50 to WG sounds reasonable.
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On July 24 2014 15:26 Socup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 02:55 Hider wrote:
Most interested to see whether WIdow Mine becomes good vs Collosus-based play. WM is absolutely terrible vs anything until you get the fast digging in skill. Then it's just a matter of high numbers. The splash radius change doesn't change the fact that it's easy to pick off before it fires, and thus you need high numbers of them in a single spot to ensure killing units later in the game. All the races have learned to turn those mines into 1-shot vs the cheapest unit they have or dead before firing lately, so they're often a waste unless you actually mass a lot of them and bury them with speed upgrade.
Actually they are good against everything but collossi imo. They are excellent for zoning out the protoss while you attack the 3rd or other stuff. The heavy doomdrop on the main with 6+ WMs near the ramp is cool too ! But yeah, I'll definitly try it against colossus now, but I'm not sure since they target zealot and with the damage up, that my be actually counter intuitive and do huge FF damage. Must try before anyway.
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On July 24 2014 15:29 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 15:26 Socup wrote:On July 23 2014 02:55 Hider wrote:
Most interested to see whether WIdow Mine becomes good vs Collosus-based play. WM is absolutely terrible vs anything until you get the fast digging in skill. Then it's just a matter of high numbers. The splash radius change doesn't change the fact that it's easy to pick off before it fires, and thus you need high numbers of them in a single spot to ensure killing units later in the game. All the races have learned to turn those mines into 1-shot vs the cheapest unit they have or dead before firing lately, so they're often a waste unless you actually mass a lot of them and bury them with speed upgrade. Actually they are good against everything but collossi imo. They are excellent for zoning out the protoss while you attack the 3rd or other stuff. The heavy doomdrop on the main with 6+ WMs near the ramp is cool too ! But yeah, I'll definitly try it against colossus now, but I'm not sure since they target zealot and with the damage up, that my be actually counter intuitive and do huge FF damage. Must try before anyway.
They don't really target zealot, just whatever happens to be in proximity, and then it's nearly RNG after that. Get about 20+ with speed dig, and then micro them into an army and bury. Wipes them pretty well. You need about 6-8 early-midgame to do the same trick, however the long bury time makes it mostly only useful for forcing them to micro back or take damage, or some kind of WM/bio all in on their natural before too much colossus gets out.
What kind of numbers do you use when zoning protoss? 99.9% of the time they have observers and get them cleaned up by stalker attacks.
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EPT
