Balance Patch Coming Soon - July 22 - Page 18

On July 24 2014 16:27 eviltomahawk wrote:

As a KT fan, I welcome another Proleague trophy thanks in part to the efforts of Flash and TY and David Kim.

On July 24 2014 10:58 Hider wrote:


Yeh maybe. Though my theory is still this:

- WOL = All devs were relatively ignorant of game-design when this game was released. But over the last 4 years, they have learned alot and should now be more comepetent than ever.

For most of WOL, game was pretty popular and when they developed HOTS they saw no reason to risk messing up what appeared to be a pretty solid game. Further, ppl like DB might also have had a negative influence on some of the unit-designs.

For LOTV, we have David Kim who at least is a decent player and he is responsible for making an expansion to a game where most people wants to see bigger changes. Unlike when HOTS was developed, there isn't as much to lose anymore, so Blizzard might be willing to gamble a bit more.

Again, the gamble here doesn't have to be removal of existing untis or complete redesigns/new races etc. But rather, just looking overall the stats of various units and trying to refine them in order to create new interactions.

I actually don't think it's that time-consuming giving that it's a full-time job, so from a ressource-perspective, it's still within what Blizzard would allow the Sc2-team to spend time on.

On July 24 2014 16:16 Loccstana wrote:
Blizzard, we need maps with smaller rush distances, please bring back maps like these:

On July 24 2014 17:02 Sapphire.lux wrote:

Unless i'm reading this wrong, are you saying DK is the lead designer for LOTV? Has this been announced or anything ?

Not having DB as the main man behind the expansion would be the most exciting part for me, as impolite as that might sound.

I even wonder if DB ever played the game too. Rob Pardo would have made the best multi competitive game ever, I'm sure of it

On July 24 2014 11:10 eviltomahawk wrote:

Rob Pardo advocated for Warp Gates, I hear.

With a much more vulnerable warp in mechanic the gateway units could probably have been stronger to, maybe limiting the death-ball dependence of Protoss armies.

On July 24 2014 17:14 Hider wrote:


Well if you think about this again. If you buff Gateway units and they become more cost-effective, what happens to the 200/200 army deathball cost efficiency of the protoss army?
It only gets stronger.

but how baaaaaaaaad it looks aesthetically

as I see it - is rather that a maxed out toss deathball basically is too unresponsive to be micro'ed during larger engagements.

On July 24 2014 17:29 Hider wrote:


If this is the main issue with protoss "deathball", then why are noone criticising a bio-ball? That's clumped up as well.

The main difference - as I see it - is rather that a maxed out toss deathball basically is too unresponsive to be micro'ed during larger engagements. A bio ball, however, can move around extremely fast.

On July 24 2014 09:52 Hider wrote:


Protoss air in general is just quite bad. It has multiple units overlapping with each other and micro interactions are very boring/non-existant. Thus, it needs a complete overhaul. Here is what I would do.

My suggestions for protoss air changes in LOTV (warning: long post incoming)

Tempest.
- 8 range
- tier 2
- better moving shot
- cheaper.

This means that the Tempest can be a relatively mobile unit in the later game that breakes static defense and work for itself.

Void Ray.
- Low acceleration
- 4 range
- More beefy (2 armor, more HP/shield
- Leash-range reduced from 2 to around 0.5, so enemy units can actually escape (which should encourage micro).

Due to it's high HP/low range it will synergize well with all other protoss air units, but will be quite medicore in a straihgt up battle asusming the enemy micro's.

Carrier:
The Carrier should be an expensive, supply effective unit that can be used to break someone that goes uber turtle. This can be obtained by increasing maximum amount of interceptors it can fire, which makes it stronger but also more expensive as it needs to pay to rebuild intercettrs.
Further, as I previously wrote, I would like to see the Thor have more of a Goliath-role here. That means that it's anti-armored attack should be buffed signifciantly while it's antilight/splash attack should be changed somewhat. Further, Vikings are weaker vs armored air units.

Given that the Thor has two modes, why not try and create some actually synergy between those two Thor modes. Wouldn't it be cool if you could switch back and fourth during battles against Carriers?

Actually it is possible (I tested it). What is required are the following changes:

- Carrier's intercetpors are more clumped up (more vulnerable to splash from the Thor)
- Interceptors have slightly less HP/more damage
- Thor splash damage needs to be a bit larger
- Thor transformation time needs to be reduced from 4 seconds to less than 1 second.

This way the terran player wanna target fire the Carriers with the Anti-armored weapon, but if he is good, he can move your injured Thors back behind the other Thors and switch them into anti-splash mode where it targets intercetors instead while keeping the Thors out of the Carriers attack-range.

Oracle.
In order to give it moving shot you need to max out it's acceleration and turn-rate + set damage point at 0. For it to be efficient to make the same type of Mutalisk micro vs Marines as saw in BW, the further changes are needed:
- Range increased to 6.
- Attack speed reduced by 50%
- It needs to have less HP/shield (in order to be balanced)
- Damage vs light reduced a bit as well.
- Seperation radius reduced (so you can stack Oracles better, this is important due to how the Starcraft-editor is bugged as Lalush explained in his "depht of micro"-video.

(FYI: I am not making this up. I spent multiple hours tweaking various stats values in order to get the desired "interaction-effects")

The unit roles

Oracle = Good vs Widow Mine if detected, but weak vs it in the sense that it dies in 1 hit. Vs Vikings it has no answer in straight combat, but has a mobility advantage vs Vikings. Thors are decent vs Oracles. Vs Marines, the outcome depends on micro. 4 marines can take out 1 oracle, but if the Oracle micro's well it can take out 6-7 Marines.

Void Ray. Very strong if enemy doesn't micro, Can tank Marine shots quite well and thus synergizes well with the other higher DPS protoss units. It is good vs Widow Mines in the sense that it can tank multiple shots, but weak vs it since it can't outrange it, has no detection and typically can't fly away from it in time. Vikings are very weak in a straight up engagements vs it, but can kite it.

Tempest: You can get it out in tier2, where you can make some pressure oriented builds with it and take advantage of terrain. It needs to kite vs Marines as it's weak vs them in straight combat, but due to it's slower movement speed it can't kite forever. Further, Widow Mines can catch up to it, but on the other hand it can outrange Widow Mines from a safe distance. In a straight up battle, this is very weak vs Thors, but late game it has a mobility upgrade which means it can take advantage of the immoilbity of the mech-army and haras it.
Vikings trade roughly even vs this unit.

Carrier: It's also kinda weak vs the Thor (similar to the Tempest), but there are the following diferences; A) Later tech, B) Slower production, C) Unique micro-interaction, D) much more supply-effective, so if the terran mech player turtles on few bases and has lots of tanks, you cannot finish him off with Tempests, but Carriers can often times be the better job if you have the superior economy

Overall, this should mean that all of protoss air units have unique micro interactions and unique unit roles with various advantages/disadvantage compared to their teran counterparts. There are no hardcounters here as all of the terran "counter"-options have some type of disadvantage against the specific protoss air unit. Instead, the terran player needs to rely on a mix of Thors, Vikings, Mines and Marines to effectively combat a good protoss air player.
But I hope that this just functions as an example of how much new gameplay you can create by just changing stats values. You don't need to come in with completley new units or remove old units. For me, it's instead all about the numbers.

The Protoss maxed out deathball is not just unresponsive to be microed, it is DESIGNED to be auto-pilot one blob army. The more you try to split it the weaker it becomes usually.

* It would be castable ability so you would have to target specific unit with VR that you want to kill faster.