isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
I am not sure how you can make a straight up comparison between a spellcasting unit and a disposable/tradable unit. While we are at it, why don't we give marines an extra damage vs. shield too? That's gotta be OK since Protoss has more HP and shield, plus Science Vessel was able to shoot EMPs in BW, right?
If they are serious about this widowmine i really hope they look at zealots/templar in pvt. Perhaps nerf charge a bit and buff zealot speed or make storm do 90 damage over 5seconds(less dmg per tick). Something along these lines shouldnt be to big of a deal overall?
So much crying and its only in the test phase. Why can people never wait until things fully implemented and they show results to complain about changes?
On July 17 2014 08:55 ClanRH.TV wrote: So much crying and its only in the test phase. Why can people never wait until things fully implemented and they show results to complain about changes?
Because its pretty obvious by this point that whatever the final result is, it will be a poor decision with these starting points.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
For the sake of argument, chess is exactly the same way. You might want to "be different" and field two rooks in some manner, but based on what your opponent has already set up on the board, it might be a terrible move rather than just going with the well known and well trodden strategy that wins the game.
Every strategy game has sub-optimal moves, and what you might be asking is for them to nerf bio and buff mech vs P so that the opposite occurs. The cheapest and most effective means of beating the opp is how a game is played. That will never change.
As an example of something that could increase utility and diversity of mech while not really affecting much, give Thor punisher cannons a bit faster shot or more damage or more range. Personally, I'd like to see them fast firing like 0.23 at around 16 damage or so.
But a 11-12 range might work better with tanks and vikings for killing colossus, and then suddenly kiting and microing just a little bit by colossus isn't an issue. Now P has to really move colossus away from their army in order to avoid the combined effect of thor-viking hitting them, and since thor prioritizes air (for now), thor should pretty much auto-target colossus.
Now thor has better effectiveness in TvP, because it counters a unit that hard counters your core units, and it has a ton of hp to weather any storm funny business. The ground shots are also nice for anti-archon work.
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
That's a stupid thing to say. Balancing the game doesn't mean mindlessly nerfing the race you don't play.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
That's a stupid thing to say. Balancing the game doesn't mean mindlessly nerfing the race you don't play.
Templar openings are far more fun to play, watch and to play against. Too bad templars are strong enough as it is in the lategame.
Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss.
It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced.
This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch.
Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge.
You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists.
As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac.
You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds.
No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge.
Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up.
If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form.
Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles.
The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M.
'
Also, I still dont understand any protoss complaining about more shield "damage" on mines. Can you not make observers and kill them at superior range with colossus or stalker? Can you not just retreat and regen your shields?
Shields are extra for Protoss, and they come back easily and at no cost for you. It wouldn't matter if mines were +1000000 to shields, you can kill mines before they hit, regen shields. L2micro.
It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Looks like the collosus opening needs to be nerfed until it gets used equally with HT openings
That's a stupid thing to say. Balancing the game doesn't mean mindlessly nerfing the race you don't play.
I keep bringing this up and not getting any responses. Have we actually seen Koreans play Templar openings after +shields? For all we know, Templar is balanced and not UP. Colo being OP as it always has (Protoss was always favored in lategame, nothing new here) would be sufficient explanation for Templar being completely phased out. It's RELATIVELY UP and a lot harder to play, so why bother?
That doesn't mean Templar is bad in an objective sense. It might be. If someone has relevant games to link, please do! I'd love to see top Korean PvT with Templar openings in the last month and a half.
So many people expressing concerns about mines in protoss mineral lines; personally I don't think it would change much. Right now they already do a ton of damage if protoss don't react and they do zero damage if reacted. That's not going to change.
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience
You can refine your gameplay a bit. I stopped having deadly trouble with the random all ins or cheeses by going rax, OC, CC, rax, rax. There's enough production if it turns out to be a push, enough critical mass if its an oracle, etc.
On July 16 2014 14:21 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:26 yeaitooted wrote:
On July 16 2014 12:15 jellyjello wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:48 Iron_ wrote:
On July 16 2014 09:15 Perdac Curall wrote: This is just ridiculous. David Kim should be fired as he obviously isn't taking this seriously and is doing things by the seat of his pants. Whatever happened to the even-handed, patient Blizzard I used to know and love. The one with incremental patches that slowly strengthened or weakened things, in order to avoid jarring, balance tilting patches like this. Granted this is not yet a patch, but judging by the comments above, the previous already-pushing-too-far changes he proposed don't do enough to weaken Protoss and strengthen Terran. Did no one at Blizzard see Maru vs. herO in ProLeague last week?
Creative, aggressive Terran play that tore Protoss apart, without any buffs or nerfs. What, is herO a chobo Protoss? We are going back to WoL all over again. Whiny, uncreative Terrans lose on ladder, and then write articles completely overreacting to the "unbalanced" situation because they can't keep doing the same thing they have always done since WoL and crush face 100% of the time. Protoss should have no way of defending against early Terran aggression, and they can't have any early aggression of their own. Then the game is balanced, just like WoL was.
R.I.P Golden Age of SC2
Creative? Aggressive? This was the most standard 14CC opening there is in the game. Maru did a *very very simple* 2 medivac drop in the main with his first 2 medivacs. Hero defended with..... 5 stalkers? Then gets caught with his entire army our of position for a nexus snipe (BARELY). This is a TERRIBLE example of Terran being competitive in the matchup. Lets not even get into the fact that you picked an example using the very best Terran in the world.
Hero played *awful* and the announcers even said so. Put the volume up next time you watch the game.
Played "awful"? Korean commentators disagree.
Pigbaby completely shut down Taeja in the quarter finals WCS AMERICA. What is Taeja suppose to do and given that Taeja was considered heavily favored in this matchup.
1) The discussion was about the game between Maru vs herO.
2) So, just because Pigbaby appeared to "completely shut down Taeja", that is somehow a justification for another patch?
When a strategy game is about unit countering another unit (and that's the path we are going btw), then that's the point at which the game becomes dull and boring. Instead, each unit should have a unique set of attributes and traits, focused on micro-bility, which allows a rich set of strategies to be developed that are tailored to the player's personality behind the race. Unfortunately, we continue to see this sad state of patch-fest game which are targeted to change behaviors of certain units against targeted objectives (e.g. widow mine vs shield). It's incredibly sad that many of you do not realize that this directly impacts the level of innovative plays from the players' strategic making process. Yet, we wonder why there are so many who feel that the balance is the #1 issue affecting the popularity of SC2.
I seem to recall muta counters tank in brood war. Also lurker counters marine/firebat and vulture, zergling and zealot, and can soft counter goons. Defiler countered late game deathball army greatly with it's op 125 damage plague spell that hit HP through shields, even. It was one of the anti-clump-your-units-in-a-ball-to-have-infinite-point-DPS tools zerg had, and seemed to have a big range too.
Let's see, siege tank countered goliaths, hydras countered most air units, archons countered ling or muta HARD, and reaver or siege tank countered hydra. The last two are hard or soft counter depending on the micro and baiting by the person being hit by scarabs or arclite.
Brood war had counter units, too. Every RTS functions on counter units, and even in real life we function in war on counter units. AA missiles vs that jet with the big bomb on it, AT warheads or recoiless rifles vs tanks, etc.
You can't look for strategy much in a game where it doesn't matter what you make or where you send it.
You either missed my point completely or are going about this the wrong way. You can use mutas to counter tanks, but the difference here is that muta in BW wasn't designed specifically to deal with tanks. There is a difference between window mine having dmg vs. shield and a flock of mutas shooting down at unprotected tanks. Why would window mines have a special dmg vs shield? The balance team is giving you incentives to use widow mines vs. Protoss. The decision is already half-way made by the balance team on how Terran strategies should look like against Protoss units. Continue this pattern of balancing the game, then I guarantee you that the interest of the game will continue to slide.
Which difference does it make whether a mine does +vs shields in SC2, a Science Vessel getting rid of shields in broodwar? These things have always existed in RTS games. Designers and balancers have always created units with certain intentions in mind. Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps it only makes sense to increase said burst against Protoss, since Protoss units have increased health in comparison to other races. +vs shields might not be the most elegant way to do that, but it gets the job done.
I am not sure how you can make a straight up comparison between a spellcasting unit and a disposable/tradable unit. While we are at it, why don't we give marines an extra damage vs. shield too? That's gotta be OK since Protoss has more HP and shield, plus Science Vessel was able to shoot EMPs in BW, right?
Given the nature of mines: no steady attack with high burst and low dps In which way does that apply to marines? Mines rely on killing things in one blow. If you don't kill something with a mine, the opponent is just going to clean up the mine without a loss in the 40seconds window afterwards. On the flipside, if you let marines fight stalkers, it doesn't matter that stalkers are more beefy than your regular T/Z unit, because they also deal less damage.
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
On July 17 2014 10:12 Salient wrote: It's clear that you don't understand. Yes, ultra powerful widow mines are not a problem if you open Colossus Stalker every single game. The problem is that the game becomes more boring. HT openings are fun and actually require higher skill to execute than colossus builds even before the last mine buff. The last mine buff basically killed HT openings. This one would completely finish the job. So the change makes playing Protoss less fun. But that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that it won't help Terran at all. Widow Mines are already great against Twilight openings. They kind of suck against Robo openings. Ironically, by making the widow mine too powerful, you kill off Twilight openings. You force the Toss to open in a way that is strong against Widow Mines. So we are left with a game that is no more balanced and has less variety. Everyone loses.
Protoss has way too many openings in PvT while terran has too few, cutting down the number of options from toss is actually a step in the RIGHT direction for balance in PvT. The problem is not that toss late game is so broken, its that protoss early game is so ridiculously varied and a good protoss can easily deny the reaper scout making the matchup a coinflip for terran to build order lose. Having a 33% chance to instantly lose the game if you choose incorrectly and a 2/3 chance to just have a normal game if you guess correctly is not fair. These buffs/nerfs will actually allow terran to more safely reach the mid game and late game much more often resulting in a more balanced matchup. We do need more variance, but we need more late game variance, not early game.
Early game builds should be standardized in terms of aggression, otherwise you will see pro players lose based on build orders (which happens way too much in this game). While being too greedy should be punished, playing standard should not be (i.e. ultra fast oracles, blink all in). Most of these things have been fixed in WOL, if you remember Stim timing in TvP or Double Chrono'd zealot in PvZ.. but a few new ones have arisen in HOTS that definitely need to be taken care of.
Once the early game becomes a game about who is BETTER, not whos build order counters whos. Then you can move on to making the game more varied. You can make builds that segway into Stargates by possibly lowering the cost of protoss air upgrades, Remember Phoenix/Colossus? I would like to see this build return.
Thors, BC's, Carriers, Broodlords, Tanks, Infestors (Neural sucks!) all need very minor tweaks to make them more applicable in mainstream games, but not in a way that they become the norm... just in a way that they are viable. Thors could be given +1 ground range, while tanks given a buff in damage output vs. light. Broodlords might need a slight boost in speed by .15. Extremely minor changes make the world of difference with units.
As much se I understand you, you do not probably realize how boring is it to watch colossus play EVERY time again and again and again ><
On July 16 2014 18:28 Extenz wrote: I dont understand why its so hard to just remove muta regen, a unit that can harass you to death while getting damaged and keeping your opponent at home is not right.
You could make Muta's fast regen cost minerals and let player turn it on and off
aka use Queens for that job.
That means you will have to have few queens dedicated to healing muta flock = that's extra minerals and supply you will have to use on units that are not really pressing the opponent. What's more, on bigger maps you will have to fly back which takes a while and leaves opponent free to do stuff in this time window.
EPT
