EPTAnyway, this patch won't stop random protoss to win every tournaments and another big terran buff in TvZ is definitely not necessary, hellbats already brought a strong oppener for terrans in this match up.
Balance Test Map Update Incoming - July 15 - Page 14
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Awin
France65 Posts
Anyway, this patch won't stop random protoss to win every tournaments and another big terran buff in TvZ is definitely not necessary, hellbats already brought a strong oppener for terrans in this match up. | ||
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Spect8rCraft
649 Posts
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gneGne
Netherlands697 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 17 2014 02:49 gneGne wrote: David Kim talks with OGN - http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/14834353 Sick interview. | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16087 Posts
On July 17 2014 03:30 Mozdk wrote: So now they are completely cementing Protoss macro options vs Terran. It's so stupid. Every game will be the same. And now it will slow and drawn out, because there will be widow mines littered across every map. Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss. It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On July 17 2014 00:48 Socup wrote: BAHAHAHA.... That analogy isn't even close. Widow Mines do NO damage while not burrowed. If you cant see the very obvious ground distortion pattern of a burrowed widow mine, you deserve to lose. If you can't tell your army to run away from or focus down the widow mines before they finish moving at 2.81 speed into position taking 3 whole game seconds to burrow, where you can deal with them, you deserve to lose. If you can't get one observer out, you deserve to lose. If you cant find a terran who puts all his WMs in a clump and just go blow them all completely to hell with three banes, you deserve to lose. Widow mines are so easy to deal with. You totally miss my point. WM was OP at the beginning of HOTS. I don't know what your league but it's not how WM are used in a high level TvZ you don't make just WM and hidd them somewhere and kill zerg. You make some MMM take a position clean creep and plant WM. If T is good enought you don't bait WM with one zergling cause marines marauder kill the zergling and prevent the WM to shot for nothing. So Zerg has to engage to clean the army in a single time. Even if you doing the thing properly with the old WM the composition is so cheap that the T is not really behind and you were far from winning, in the other side a lucky WM shot can be a sentence of death for the zerg. The WM have been nerfed for their early strenght of the 11min30 push but now T have trouble in the early/mid cause of the lack of AOE. Of course MMM is already very strong vs ling/baneling/mutas if T doesn't take some baneling connection but one good circle can make the Z snowball. So T can't really take the risk to engage on creep while Z has no reason to take fight outside creep, as the longer he waits the stronger he is and off creap fight is really something that can kill him if T split correctly, except to claim his win when he is ahead ( aslo you see some zerg making low mutas count and high baneling count excepting T can't deal with that many baneling : and that the main complain as it is more easy for low leagues player to makes a lot of baneling than babysitting high mutas low baneling, and very hard for T specially if he is on low league to perfectly split against a lot of baneling.) My point was just making upgrades for WM could allow buff only on mid late game without touching early game, cause just reverting WM nerf is just forgetting months of game and it's just stupid to make again the same mistakes... | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote: Rather than give Terran some more options they just take options away from Protoss. It's not ideal but at least it's more balanced. This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16087 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:24 Mozdk wrote: This is the wrong way to do it. All other matchups has choices for both sides. And if this change goes through, templar based strats are completely dead in PvT. Which is by far more fun to play and to watch. Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge. You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists. As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac. However, since Blizz seems completely unwilling to nerf Photon Overcharge, I can only assume because of the relative stability it provides to PvP, there isn't much they can do to really give Terran more options without completely overhauling one or both of the races. | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:35 Vindicare605 wrote: Well if you want Terran to have more choices the first thing that NEEDS to go is Photon Overcharge. You can't expect there to be parity in terms of options in the match up as long as that shit exists. As far as late game goes, I don't even know what you would have to change to open up the match up. Battlecruisers and Ravens are completely invalidated by Templar and Tempests. Ghost/Viking is the only real late game comp Terran can build that isn't hilariously outmatched by simple Marine/Marauder/Medivac. You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16087 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:39 Mozdk wrote: You can work around photon overcharge with bio. No pros are having trouble with photon overcharge. You cannot, however, work around mines with chargelot+templar builds. No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone. Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game. If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:42 Vindicare605 wrote: No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up. If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form. Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles. The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell (thus no energy to feedback). That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24212 Posts
Can't wait to see the consequences of this patch and the game evolve again from a reasonably balanced state. | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:42 Vindicare605 wrote: No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone. Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game. If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form. I don't agree, but I hear you feel very strongly about this. The problem is, that you cannot remove it. PvP will only be one base. It's the whole reason you can buy time vs blink and 3 gate openings. Not to mention oracle and frontal preasure. It is 100% needed for PvP to be a thing. | ||
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MrLightning
306 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:42 Vindicare605 wrote: No one works around Photon Overcharge, Terran is pigeonholed into a half dozen build orders at most because of Photon Overcharge. I can think of at least a dozen builds off the top of my head that are completely dead thanks to Photon Overcharge alone. Even after Templar openings are dead Protoss will have at least twice as many options as Terran currently does in the match up's early game. If you're serious about talking about providing more options to the race then Photon Overcharge NEEDS to go. There cannot be a serious discussion about opening up the match up as long as that spell exists in its current form. Its funny that the "at least a dozen builds" that are now "dead" were unstoppable all ins. People really want their 100% winrate vs P back. Heck, either that or 100% winrate v P with mech. 100% winrate v P NEEDS to happen, the real question is this: should it take 7 minutes or 50? | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:56 MrLightning wrote: Its funny that the "at least a dozen builds" that are now "dead" were unstoppable all ins. People really want their 100% winrate vs P back. Heck, either that or 100% winrate v P with mech. 100% winrate v P NEEDS to happen, the real question is this: should it take 7 minutes or 50? Yeah because banshee harass was totally unstoppable. 1/1/1 was unstoppable. 11/11 was totally unstoppable too. And what about that totally unstoppable 2 rax gaz push with concussive. So broken. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16087 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:52 Salient wrote: Photon Overcharge is kind of a red herring in this context. It limits cheesy stim timings and things like that in the early game. It has nothing to do with the lack of variety in Terran mid and lategame compositions and styles. The reason Terran lacks variety is that things like Thors, siege tanks, Ravens, and BCs just aren't worth making. You would be crazy to use those units instead of 4M, which is already super effective and continues to get buffed. I don't know why Blizz doesn't try something like giving BCs free Yamato and making that an ability instead of a spell. That would be a late game buff, which is what most Terrans are asking for, not another midgame buff to 4M. Photon Overcharge is the biggest culprit of the current stagnation of TvP from the Terran's point of view. TvP has always been relatively stagnant compared to other match ups due to the things you're talking about, which are totally valid by the way, but this current level of stagnation is entirely due to Photon Overcharge. The safety that PO provides, allows for both hyper greedy and hyper aggressive openings from Protoss that they would never be allowed to have if PO didn't exist. Having to account for the possibility of both limits even further what builds Terran can use in the match up. As a quick example it makes Reaper openings almost mandatory because knowing whether or not your opponent is being aggressive or greedy is so damn important, the Mothership Core itself contributes to this also because of how well it shuts down SCV scouts even if no other combat units are being made. In WoL before PO existed we had early game options that don't exist anymore, things like Cloaked Banshee openings, 2/3 rax concussive shell pressure, stim timings, 1/1/1 (still works but far weaker now), or even bizarre things like Hellion openings. These kinds of openings being viable allow greater opportunities for builds into Mech whereas now every viable opener Terrans have build much more safely into Bio play than they do into Mech. PO is a big problem in the match up if you're talking about options and variety. It bottlenecks the early game so severely that creating additional midgame variety from such a narrow array of early game options seems hilariously unlikely. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16087 Posts
On July 17 2014 04:54 Mozdk wrote: I don't agree, but I hear you feel very strongly about this. The problem is, that you cannot remove it. PvP will only be one base. It's the whole reason you can buy time vs blink and 3 gate openings. Not to mention oracle and frontal preasure. It is 100% needed for PvP to be a thing. I understand PO's importance to PvP, but I personally feel that PO is just a band aid that covers up huge design flaws in PvP that require a spell like it in order for the match up to have stability. I'd rather fix PvP in a way that doesn't require a massive early game crutch if I had my way. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24212 Posts
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