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On July 02 2014 10:21 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 10:04 Circumstance wrote:On July 02 2014 09:36 Nebuchad wrote:
I am very glad that they're proposing terran buffs instead of other races nerfs, cause that is the SANE thing to do (not directed at anyone in particular but I've read enough stuff).
That being said, I agree that these aren't the right changes. If we continue with the same notion of being sane, the right thing to do would be to buff the terran units that we see close to never. Thors? In PvT? Not seen since like 2011. I know they are used in TvZ vs mutas, but that's surely not all they are intended to be useful for. BCs? Again, can't say I've seen a ton of those recently. Well, pros play to their strengths. If you buff the Ghost in TvZ, it still probably won't be used because it's not something that can easily be fit into the normal Terran composition. The Hellbat worked because Hellions are already usable in the early-game and making an Armory is something that often happens against Zergs anyway, either to make Thors or to research Drilling Claws. The only way I can think to buff, say, the BC is to give it either an ability or an upgrade that gives its normal lasers the Glave Bounce. And even then, that'd only possibly be for VERY late game. (But then, I'm also terrible at designing anything, theoretical or otherwise.) This is the challenge with Terran. They're so centric on this core that will always be the backbone of their composition, you can't really buff or nerf those units because it would completely upend balance. So they have to sort of deal with the extremities, the outer units that support the core, and those differences can only work in a certain way. And, of course, the balance is always rotating around the active ladder map pool. But that's not really an argument. Every race uses the infrastructure and compositions that work the best, to the best of their knowledge. If you create strength in other areas, people are going to adapt their build to take this strength into account. They won't do it at first, sure, because it's a process. If they never do it, that just means you haven't created the strength you thought you would (like with the tank buff to compensate widow mines). If the ghost was strong in TvZ, of course ghosts would be made, because the best TvZ builds would be those that benefit from the advantage of having ghosts. Case in point: when ghosts were good vs broodlords.
I think you're missing my point, which is probably my fault for not organizing my post clearly enough. Every race has things that can work, but Terran comps ALWAYS go back to Bio, while both Protoss and Zerg have a much greater diversity of styles. There's no one build to rule them all - if Classic made the same army every game, he wouldn't have won the GSL. A Protoss can make a big deathball with Archons and Colossus, or they can go for an aggressive Gateway-tech approach, or even Skytoss. A Zerg can use Roaches and Hydras, or they can go for a Muta-Ling-Bane, or try to tech up to Infestors. And those styles each have their pros and their cons, and they can all win if used correctly.
With Terran, it's different. They aren't deciding what will make up the core of their army. They're deciding what will support that army. And that's what makes balancing them so much of a challenge. It's like trying to fill up a glass all the way to the brim with water, but without a single drop overflowing. That's the kind of precision being used.
EDIT: Fixed the quote.
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On July 02 2014 08:15 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 08:12 Cheerio wrote:
Terran needs better mech. The biggest problem with it is how slowly it builds up. Zerg has unique production ability and protoss doesn't rely on non-warpgate production facilities too much. I suggest decrease the production time of tanks and thors. There are plenty of players who play Mech successfully at a GM level. There is no reason why the other 99.5% (or whatever it is) of the player-base can't play Mech right now.
Besides experimental style on various streams (Happy for instance), in tournaments you almost never see mech in TvZ on maps that cannot easily be cut in half. That is why we see it on King sejong station and Overgrowth and almost never on any other map. So well I guess it is somewhat viable, but it has clear limits at the moment.
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They should go all way and give medi constant speed of boost, like it was at start of wol. Wol nerf was not necessary in first place and in addition all units are now faster then in wol.
Slight unneft to window mines? Unnerf them completely. For god sake.
IN addition, vikings need some sort of buf, because they no longer can deal with carriers. Carriers now beat viking food for food. Reason? they now can shot and move, so viking can not kite.
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The wm buff can be nice but only LOTV could make the game way better.
For example you could remove (or rework) the tank which is too hard to balance and replace it with some exciting crazy rocket launcher vehicule with huge aoe delayed slow attack !
Well anyway, I hope LOTV will have that kind of stuff (removing boring/hardtobalance stuffs and replacing them with some exciting things !).
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Broodwar Tanks, thanks :D
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Ugh can't tell if David Kim wants to balance the game or make it "exciting to watch" :/
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I think if they brought the tanks to their former glory it would fix most things. Tanks on the high ground don't scare anything off, most armies can run into 6ish tanks and not worry about losing the fight because tanks are so expensive. I really want to see the old days of tanks slowly marching up with turrets and infrastructure following them right now it feels like the terran has to run in every fight and see how many of the slower units die... its really stupid to watch.
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More and more I think the mine is reaching bunker status. These balance suggestions miss the mark in my opinion and only promote the same fight against the clock style that Terran has been doing for years. Can't expect too much outside of a new expansion I guess though so it'll have to do.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On July 02 2014 10:54 Mutineer wrote:
They should go all way and give medi constant speed of boost, like it was at start of wol. Wol nerf was not necessary in first place and in addition all units are now faster then in wol.
Slight unneft to window mines? Unnerf them completely. For god sake.
IN addition, vikings need some sort of buf, because they no longer can deal with carriers. Carriers now beat viking food for food. Reason? they now can shot and move, so viking can not kite.
I really think that should be the case, since it's way harder to make carriers. They produce at a rate of 3 food per minute and need the highest tech available to build.
Vikings produce at a rate of ~5.72 food per minute and are accessed far easier, far earlier and also extremely common in the midgame.
You have to get to the upper tier of tech (comparable to a battlecruiser/raven army) and make half a dozen carriers as well as research graviton catapult before they stop being a massive liability and become a threat
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Im sure that I am not alone...
But I like terran because siege tank. I would be much happy if they OP.
I can only imagine the doom drops in tvt if medivacs are buffed.
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Imo it's the proposed medivac buff isn't a good idea. At the release of HOTS, Medivacs were already given a huge buff with the speed boost. This allowed terrans to move in between enemy bases and escape more easily, however terrans already rely too much on using this mechanic to gain an advantage as it is. The reason I think medivacs shouldn't be buffed further is because drops are too unpredictable. Your opponent can simply place strategic defenses around their base (turrets in TVT, cannons in TvP, spores/spines in TvZ) and you don't know until you actually go there.
You can't just snipe 4 nexuses whenever you want like Polt.
Also terrans don't really enjoy having to rely on some cheap mechanic like a medivac speed boost to catch their opponent off guard. A better thing to buff would be something that lets us gain a more predictable advantage that doesn't rely on catching your opponent out of position with medivacs,
Give us some real buffs. A small buff to widow mines seems like a good idea (a small one), but I feel like we need something else as well. A buff to something other than widow mines or medivac. Perhaps tanks, or a build time reduction on barracks/bunkers (for early defense) or buff to building armor (to make defense more reliable). Just an idea.
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Medivacs are already so good wtf is Blizzard thinking.....
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Some sort of tank buff would be really nice. They're only really scary in large numbers or if attacking Marines/Zerglings/Banes.
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Kind of disappointed from the balance team...
TvP Biggest problem = No Mech.
TvP Terran can only open safe build, and eventually ONLY Bio. Therefore late-game TvP is always one dimension. MMMVG vs DeathBall.
Why not buff Tank vs shield damage? While it might make 111 all in too strong, but you can easily balance it out.
Can be an upgrade on the tech lab that requires armoury.
Research Mjolnir Cannon (Requires Armoury, research time 150 secs)
+X Shield damage, +X Shield damage on splash, +10 Shield damage against Immortal,
The tank's fire now display as blue.
But... probably will have to wait till LOTV for this to happen.
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TvZ is actually not too bad... I think for the past weeks, terran players are tryign to abuse the hellbats but just ended up failing. TvZ is in decent place.
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Oh, my god. Wasn't the hellbat buff enough? I am forced to blindly open roaches every game already as it is. My ZvT was AMAZING and now it's completely mediocre. When will enough be enough, Blizzard? Do you even play the game? What is wrong with you?
If this mine change is to go through, revert hellbat buff. Blizzard made the hellbat change so Zerg couldn't blindly drone super hard, but it seems what they don't realize is that Zerg HAD TO get 3 base saturation by like 9 minutes or they flat out LOST THE GAME versus strong 11-12 minute mine pushes.
EDIT: In addition, medivacs are still as strong as they were at the start of HotS. Medivacs are perfect as they are because it literally comes down to who is the better player in terms of micro/multitasking. They're one of the units affected the most by the skill of the individual.
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Funny how this comes out only a couple days after "Welcome to ZParcraft II" was posted.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
or a build time reduction on barracks/bunkers (for early defense)
Problem with that is that the buff would make more of a difference to OFFENSE with those tools than defense. There's plenty of easier and safer buffs to improve for example midgame combat ability
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Whenever I hear someone mention buffing Terran, I just think back to the nightmare that was imba Terran back in late 2011 - early 2012. GomTvT. Remember that?  No to both of these buffs. There are other ways to handle this.
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On July 02 2014 10:54 Mutineer wrote:
IN addition, vikings need some sort of buf, because they no longer can deal with carriers. Carriers now beat viking food for food. Reason? they now can shot and move, so viking can not kite.
Am I seriously reading someone complain that Carriers are too good?
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EPT
