EPT[Star Hangshow] Balance in SC2 - Page 4
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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Morphage
France492 Posts
On July 02 2014 06:06 GGzerG wrote: BroodWar was a much more difficult game to play for obvious reasons, no MBS, only 12 units max of selection, no special macro boosts like Mules, Larva inject, or Chrono boost, so the game was much more skill based, which is why I think BW would take much longer to be able to patch than SC2, because simply the game is much more difficult to play and execute. SC2 is a much more difficult game to balance correctly, as the game has so many different gimmicky abilities and things that make the game easier for everyone(Which can be good, if BW was too hard for people to play), which in turn makes the game completely different in terms of how to balance it, SC2 and BW are both starcraft and have similarities, but SC2 is a completely different game, so in terms of how balancing goes, they can't be balanced the same.... I think Blizzard is going about the right way of patching the game in the speed in which they give te patches, but what they are doing wrong is just buffing / nerfing specific units drastically, I know this sounds extreme and crazy and Blizz has already stated they won't do this, but in LotV I think they should just make it 3D BroodWar.... There is too many units in SC2 that don't even get used, too many gimmicks, and things that encourage all in / cheese...I want Broodwar 2.0 please....  Finally someone gets it! All these people talking about leaving the game as it is, just like BroodWar, fail to see that it was easier for players to overcome balance issues in BroodWar, through superior macro or unit control. In SC2, those things are quite easy to do at the top level, so top players can't gain that much of an edge in those areas. What SC2 needs is game design changes, but Blizzard is never going to do that, and I understand them, it's too much of a pain, and there really isn't that much incentive for them to do it. So only expect movement speed/damage/armour buffs/nerfs from now on, and don't act surprised when that's the only thing they do. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
As for the BW example, there was imbalance for a long time and, yes people figured the game more out than it was probably intended by design (bugs) and it turned out alright. But that was also partly coincidence, not design. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Blizzard's basic approach in HotS of just having minor changes and letting things develop is really nice; i think they could do a better job in deciding what to change though. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 02 2014 18:33 Daswollvieh wrote: The game needs patches. Doing nothing design-wise is merely hoping that everything will turn out ok. You cannot reasonably assume that things will balance out eventually, if you also assume that the game is not figured out, yet. Because you might as well end up in a million different imbalanced situations. As for the BW example, there was imbalance for a long time and, yes people figured the game more out than it was probably intended by design (bugs) and it turned out alright. But that was also partly coincidence, not design. And partly tournaments using Protoss favored maps in fall to make up for the slight imbalance on regular maps and have Protoss win once in a while. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On July 02 2014 00:32 Damnight wrote: In short: I don't think the game is so unbalanced that it is in dire need of patching. However the strategies and especially the metagame are stagnating. Too much imo. I think there are changes to made to core mechanics, and that the devs should focus on LotV right now. Till then I think we may come up with cool maps or even a new strategy. But I think variety is held up by game design not balance I agree with this. Base mechanics are not good enough and have not been from the start. Hopefully LotV will use some ideas from Starbow and improve Sc2 base mechanics. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 02 2014 18:44 -Archangel- wrote: I agree with this. Base mechanics are not good enough and have not been from the start. Hopefully LotV will use some ideas from Starbow and improve Sc2 base mechanics. I think variety is held up by balance. You cant vary your compositions if one strategy is clearly favores over another. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On July 02 2014 00:38 FFW_Rude wrote: Yes it should. No balance patches gave us Boxer, NaDa, Oov, SaviOr, Bisu, FlaSh, Jaedong. But it is really hard to do. Why you may ask ? Because this game (heart of the swarm) will die in one/two years. What ? Dead game ? no not really. But Legacy of the Void. I think the no patch thing can be achieved when we know there will not be a new game after this. We won't have an inovator in 2years of a game. Brood War live since 15years. 2001 is 1998,1999,2000,2001 => 4 years. (well BW is 99 i think). So we will say 3 years with patch and after that untouched. WoL 2010-2013 (then died because HotS) 3years (more 2years and 10months) HotS 2013-2015(?) then will die LotV 2015(?)-????? now the game will live on. How can you left untouched a game that will last a few years ? I would love that they don't touch the game. But i don't know if it's just possible. WoL and HotS are Starcraft Vanilla. LotV will be BW. I think HotS was Brood War...but then Blizzard made changes when, IMO, none were really needed. People complained about all the hell bats, but IMO the game was ludicrously exciting to watch amd incredibly fun to play. I was playing random then. Now, I just play Protoss as I struggle to win with Terran (although my win-rate vs Toss is ok, I frequently feel quite helpless) and although I don't hate ZvT, ZvP is boring to play and just not fun for me (statistically my best matchup though). | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
Other issues are inherent to the game's design and small tweaks in stats won't fix them. | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
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FaultyReDD
25 Posts
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kottbullar
Australia490 Posts
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
On July 02 2014 19:22 kottbullar wrote: All sc2 needs atm is increased supply cap IMO. That should solve many of the problems that the game currently has. OMG even more turtling and SH. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3436 Posts
Then again, as it was already said, BW was much more demanding and additionally it lacked the concept of hardcounter. You could almost always win with superior control. So it was more flexible in that regard. SC2 is more set in stone and unless we see a dramatic game design change in LotV I don't think it can achieve what BW did... Still, to fully answer your question, I think Blizzard should let players alone for a while to see what happens. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic627 Posts
On July 02 2014 19:22 kottbullar wrote: All sc2 needs atm is increased supply cap IMO. That should solve many of the problems that the game currently has. how is that supposed to help the game? what SC2 needs is more dinamic between units... lets take as example TvP in BW... You cant just mass marine vs Protoss because 1Zealot can kill 3Marines if Terran doesnt control them... in Sc2 1 Marine can kill 1Zealot... There was a dinamic when you where doing Dragoon without range vs Marines in BW that was really exicting to watch until Dragon range was completed and then tanks would join the fight... and dragoons has to retreat until they are 2dragons vs 1tank and then... they had to retreat again because of mines... you dont get that back and forth at the begening of matches like in BW that was really good and micro wise... thats what SC2 needs. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On July 02 2014 00:38 BisuDagger wrote: Honestly, what's the point of patching anyway when LoTV will make HoTS extinct. The counter is terrans currently. On the opposite end they could just over patch to remain balance until then too but that'd also suck. I think the majority of gamers should be more angry there is no LoTV release date which means even if HoTS becomes stable the process completely repeats itself and the patching game starts over. Blizzard has no reason to give you guys a release date. That would just get you more mad when it gets pushed back. It's not like you guys don't know how they work, lol. | ||
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DreamR
United Kingdom168 Posts
everyone will feel happier. to op. no skill User was warned for this post | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On July 02 2014 19:10 endy wrote: Balance the game with maps. Other issues are inherent to the game's design and small tweaks in stats won't fix them. Hold on let me jump in right here, I do a lot of mapmaking work and maps simply aren't allowed to balance the game. you want half bases? no says blizzard, you want mineral only bases? no says blizzard, many things mapmakers want to try will never make it into ladder and therefor maps can't balance this game. | ||
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Friedobert
Germany38 Posts
On July 02 2014 19:22 kottbullar wrote: All sc2 needs atm is increased supply cap IMO. That should solve many of the problems that the game currently has. Kappa On July 02 2014 20:28 SC2BF3Love wrote: in Sc2 1 Marine can kill 1Zealot... what game are you playing? let's get serious. i agree with the people that are saying maps need to be accepted as a tool to balance the game. also blizzard should be open for innovations in ladder maps, like 19Meavis93 said. still, right now i'd like some small tweaks (concerning terran, read zpcraft, some stuff dwarf supposes there is nice, like the stimm buff). that being said, we need some serious game-mechanic changes for LotV, i guess there are enough upposed already in this thread. on the other side, please don't wait for it, gonna take at least 2 years for it to be released. when LotV is released, hopefully we're gonna have 2 years of stabilizing (mind that a foreigner was able to win an OSL in the first two years of BW, so you gotta ignore these first two years anyway) and then good old meta. i doubt that the basic design of sc2 makes revolutionzing and innovating meta impossible like some ppl proposed. User was warned for this post | ||
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