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3861 Posts
I know that many people have talked about balance before (ZOMG PROTOSS OP) but hear me out!
Next week's discussion on the Star Hangshow (a SC2 centered talk show on OGN) is this:
Should SC2 keep receiving patches to help balance the game or do you think that it should be up to the players to come up with new strategies and "beat" the game?
For example, in Broodwar, after patch 1.08 in 2001 (I think?) the game never changed and it was up to the players to create innovative ways to beat their opponents. But lately, it seems that SC2 just keeps getting patched whenever Blizzard hears cries from the community.
I would like to hear from the foreign community (YOU GUYS!) what you think about that? Do you think that the game should just be left alone so that pro players can figure things out for themselves or do you think that constant patching is helpful?
I look forward to your responses!!
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We should return to a point where all match up where equally balanced (right before WM nerf) and leave the game at this state forever.
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I'm a supporter of no more balance patches. It messes with builds too much, rendering some solid ones redundant forcing not only the race affected to change, but the other races to change also. Constant meta game shifts like this end up making the meta never truly settle, leading to what we see now, with players crying OP about every little thing that has not been figured out just yet.
Sure Terran is struggling just now, but if NO more patches are applied and we look back in say 12 months from now, I would be willing to bet a fair amount that Terran players somehow figure something out that is highly effective against what we struggle against just now. Same for the other two races of course.
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I like the idea to constantly patch the game. It is an extra nudge to think out of the meta.
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In short:
I don't think the game is so unbalanced that it is in dire need of patching. However the strategies and especially the metagame are stagnating. Too much imo. I think there are changes to made to core mechanics, and that the devs should focus on LotV right now. Till then I think we may come up with cool maps or even a new strategy. But I think variety is held up by game design not balance 
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On July 02 2014 00:26 Faust852 wrote:
We should return to a point where all match up where equally balanced (right before WM nerf) and leave the game at this state forever.
I pretty much agree with this. One more patch to change all the common complaints (such as oracle speed being buffed for no reason) and then leave it as it is as long as match ups are equally balanced.
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The Game will change a lot when "Legacy of the Void" is released anyways. I think Blizzard should make some patches until LotV comes out, but after that they should stop and let players develop new strategies.
In BW there were times when one race dominated but players developed new strategies and the game and the meta always changed wihtout any balance patches.
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Yes it should. No balance patches gave us Boxer, NaDa, Oov, SaviOr, Bisu, FlaSh, Jaedong.
But it is really hard to do. Why you may ask ? Because this game (heart of the swarm) will die in one/two years.
What ? Dead game ? no not really. But Legacy of the Void.
I think the no patch thing can be achieved when we know there will not be a new game after this.
We won't have an inovator in 2years of a game.
Brood War live since 15years.
2001 is 1998,1999,2000,2001 => 4 years. (well BW is 99 i think). So we will say 3 years with patch and after that untouched.
WoL 2010-2013 (then died because HotS) 3years (more 2years and 10months)
HotS 2013-2015(?) then will die
LotV 2015(?)-????? now the game will live on.
How can you left untouched a game that will last a few years ? I would love that they don't touch the game. But i don't know if it's just possible.
WoL and HotS are Starcraft Vanilla.
LotV will be BW.
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Bisutopia19391 Posts
Honestly, what's the point of patching anyway when LoTV will make HoTS extinct. The counter is terrans currently. On the opposite end they could just over patch to remain balance until then too but that'd also suck. I think the majority of gamers should be more angry there is no LoTV release date which means even if HoTS becomes stable the process completely repeats itself and the patching game starts over.
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On July 02 2014 00:38 BisuDagger wrote:
Honestly, what's the point of patching anyway when LoTV will make HoTS extinct. The counter is terrans currently. On the opposite end they could just over patch to remain balance until then too but that'd also suck. I think the majority of gamers should be more angry there is no LoTV release date which means even if HoTS becomes stable the process complete repeats itself and the patching game starts over.
Or in short... This post. Yeah.
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Bisutopia19391 Posts
On July 02 2014 00:40 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 00:38 BisuDagger wrote:
Honestly, what's the point of patching anyway when LoTV will make HoTS extinct. The counter is terrans currently. On the opposite end they could just over patch to remain balance until then too but that'd also suck. I think the majority of gamers should be more angry there is no LoTV release date which means even if HoTS becomes stable the process complete repeats itself and the patching game starts over. Or in short... This post. Yeah.
I read yours after my post. We were so on the same page haha.
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On July 02 2014 00:26 Faust852 wrote:
We should return to a point where all match up where equally balanced (right before WM nerf) and leave the game at this state forever.
This. The game felt great at that point. Should just leave it alone and wait for LoTV like Rude and Bisudagger suggested.
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On July 02 2014 00:38 BisuDagger wrote:
I think the majority of gamers should be more angry there is no LoTV release date
This is something that is starting to bother me as well.
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I think they have a last attempt at balancing the game with LotV and then they should leave the game as it will be.
Also BW was pretty much a happy accident for Blizzard, as I dont think they were making money out of it after 2000/2001 so why bother with patching whereas with SC2 they still need to sell their tourneys.
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I would like to see one or at most two balance patches a year.
I really like what Valve have been doing with Dota2, not many balance patches but every now and then things gets shaken up completely.
Then again SC2 is a completely different beast..
Honestly I don't think it really matter in the end if Blizzard went out and said: "After LotV we are not going to release any balance patch unless theres a sever game breaking strategy."
Blizzard likes to buff units but later alter them to making them useless, also the units getting the buffs gets abused heavily making a already limited game in terms of strategy even more so.
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I feel that the biggest reason why BW was viable without patches is that it was so damn hard that skill could prevail over almost anything. The sheer micro and macro power of the best players would ensure they always won even with a poor unit composition or build mis-read.
The same cannot be said of SC2 where even a lowly masters player can gamble on one of a dozen difficult to scout all-ins and get a free win over a vastly superior opponent with a bit of luck.
Leaving a game to fend for itself necessitates that its design is in a "good" (although not necessarily balanced) place. I do not feel like leaving the game as is will allow it to produce better or more fun games than it has in the past.
In fact, I'm sure the majority of people will agree that right now the games being played are in general less interesting than they have been.
Regardless, claiming that BW had no patches is a tricky falsehood, because in reality it was getting extremely frequent and regular patches by the way of new maps.
A single map has just as much (or perhaps even more) influence on win rates than a single balance patch does. I could go into the editor right now and make a map that had a 95%+ win rate for any race of my choosing - the games would just be incredibly stupid.
Just look back a few weeks - Blizzard implemented the blink "nerf" by way of maps and not a patch. Pretending BW went a decade without patches is nothing more than a twisting of reality...
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On July 02 2014 00:44 TwiggyWan wrote:
I think they have a last attempt at balancing the game with LotV and then they should leave the game as it will be.
Also BW was pretty much a happy accident for Blizzard, as I dont think they were making money out of it after 2000/2001 so why bother with patching whereas with SC2 they still need to sell their tourneys.
BW sold like 2millions copies in KR after 2000 if i recall
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3861 Posts
Wow, thanks so much guys! I understand that LotV is coming soon (WHEN?!) but the idea of maps heavily influencing game play and stagnant meta is interesting. Why were BW players able to be more innovative, do you think?
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I said it and I'll say it again.
Everything in SC2 is pointless until the last patch of LotV.
A bit sad to think if all those tournament winners are based upon ACTUAL skills or just patched luck.
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On July 02 2014 00:44 r691175002 wrote:
I feel that the biggest reason why BW was viable without patches is that it was so damn hard that skill could prevail over almost anything. The sheer micro and macro power of the best players would ensure they always won even with a poor unit composition or build mis-read.
No my friend. Lots of innovations came from Macro. Like Reach and macro protoss, Oov and macro terran, SaviOr redefined the matchup by builds and tactics. Bisu refined openings. It was not a sheer micro Boxer did however. Strategy and micro.
The same cannot be said of SC2 where even a lowly masters player can gamble on one of a dozen difficult to scout all-ins and get a free win over a vastly superior opponent with a bit of luck.
You can 4 pool a B player on iCcup (it's master equivalent right ? Or as it changed ?) if he done 14CC you would kill him as well. Allin worked in BW too.
Leaving a game to fend for itself necessitates that its design is in a "good" (although not necessarily balanced) place. I do not feel like leaving the game as is will allow it to produce better or more fun games than it has in the past.
In fact, I'm sure the majority of people will agree that right now the games being played are in general less interesting than they have been.
Well the design of BW was not good in a sense that you had so much tricks that came from bug (drone drilling fe :p) It depends on so much thing. Look at Flash vs Bbyong in SanDISK tournament. You can still have exiting games.
Regardless, claiming that BW had no patches is a tricky falsehood, because in reality it was getting extremely frequent and regular patches by the way of new maps.
A single map has just as much (or perhaps even more) influence on win rates than a single balance patch does. I could go into the editor right now and make a map that had a 95%+ win rate for any race of my choosing - the games would just be incredibly stupid.
BW had no patch from Blizzard (it's the question asked by the OP) but you are right. Map maker balanced things. (Hello Zerg players ! I heard you liked Longinus :p).
On July 02 2014 00:41 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2014 00:40 FFW_Rude wrote:On July 02 2014 00:38 BisuDagger wrote:
Honestly, what's the point of patching anyway when LoTV will make HoTS extinct. The counter is terrans currently. On the opposite end they could just over patch to remain balance until then too but that'd also suck. I think the majority of gamers should be more angry there is no LoTV release date which means even if HoTS becomes stable the process complete repeats itself and the patching game starts over. Or in short... This post. Yeah. I read yours after my post. We were so on the same page haha.
I ninja'd you for a time. give me a cookie now. I typed Bisu in my post.
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