EPTWho's with me?! Must have epic signs to picket with.
[Star Hangshow] Balance in SC2 - Page 3
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
Who's with me?! Must have epic signs to picket with. | ||
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
- Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9 - Widow Mine splash damage increased from 40 to 40 +40 shields These are somewhat one-dimensional changes that are designed to address really specific issues. Although in practice, it would take a lot of time in order to find a new, optimized build that can really take advantage of these changes, on an overarching, strategic level, the changes don't require much thinking. The Mothersip Core vision change means that blink-allins are harder. And the Widow Mine changes means that mines are more effective vs all Protoss units, addressing only that one matchup. Balance changes through maps are much more interesting. It gives an opportunity for players who are more cerebral, but not necessarily mechanically the strongest, to shine. When you give a group of players a weird map, maybe one with, god forbid, island bases or rocks (which can be pretty terrible, to be fair), they'll probably hate it, but sooner or later they'll have to figure something out. For example, there was Daedalus Point. It was a terrible map, and was completely imbalanced PvZ, but there was the one game, Ruin vs Sleep (I think), where there was some innovation on the map. Then shortly afterwards it was retired, rest in piece, but it did make for a really interesting spectator experience, and I'm sure it was a Eureka moment for the players that theorycrafted it. The issue is that since ladder is based off of Blizzard's set map pool, it's hard for players that aren't in team houses to get practice on those maps, and in a way it's a balance update specific to a league or a tournament. But the positive side to this is that it's really easily reversible. At last year's Red Bull Battleground in New York, one of the maps was Cloud Kingdom, a Wings of Liberty map that had been retired. I thought it was really cool and some of the players had some interesting builds that weren't typical on other maps. I don't necessarily know if it was enjoyable to play them, but it was to watch. Since there's not as much practice infrastructure in the foreign scene, it seems like every other map is still a Daybreak clone. The last thing that is most appealing about map changes is that a new map affects all 6 matchups in some shape or form. The game can be molded into something that the league/players/viewers want, and it doesn't have to go in the direction that Blizzard necessarily wants. On a personal level, when I read balance changes, I'm never very enthusiastic about them, because it seems like the balance team is trying to mold the game into a very specific way. And it's never very clear what is the overarching end goal of balance updates, whether they're going for 50/50 in all matchups, or they're trying to address gameplay issues such as one race overpowering another completely in early or late game, or trying to introduce new strategies (they kind of spent a weird amount of effort trying to make mech viable). I liked the idea of Brood War kind of developing organically, and having these big names like Bisu and he-who-must-not-be-named (sAviOr) pulling through these difficult times for each race. Seeing Starcraft II develop so rigidly under Blizzard's close eye felt really artificial, and almost took a lot away from the greatness of its players. | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On July 02 2014 00:38 BisuDagger wrote: Honestly, what's the point of patching anyway when LoTV will make HoTS extinct. The counter is terrans currently. On the opposite end they could just over patch to remain balance until then too but that'd also suck. I think the majority of gamers should be more angry there is no LoTV release date which means even if HoTS becomes stable the process completely repeats itself and the patching game starts over. Balancing the game so the most dynamic and interesting to watch race (in my opinion, I'm sure shared even with Zerg and Toss players) is still present will ensure SC2 doesn't hemorrhage viewership prior to LotV and never recover. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 02 2014 03:11 Tenks wrote: Balancing the game so the most dynamic and interesting to watch race (in my opinion, I'm sure shared even with Zerg and Toss players) is still present will ensure SC2 doesn't hemorrhage viewership prior to LotV and never recover. Zerg is pretty well represented already though. But just because Terran isnt as interesting to watch (imo, I'm sure shared even with Terran and Toss players) I think it still deserves to have equal chances of winning.  | ||
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FlowOfIdeas
30 Posts
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r691175002
249 Posts
On July 02 2014 04:07 FlowOfIdeas wrote:Across the board (through all of Starcraft), we still see Terran with the most premiere wins, and just because there's a "drought" of Terran victories (which there's not..i.e. Taeja winning back-to-back tournies and Polt taking two 2nd places at MLG and RedBull) doesn't mean that they are underpowered, which so many claim to believe. The data does not support your claim. https://i.imgur.com/FQbyUjN.png Furthermore, Terran went something like 9 months without a premiere tournament win. Prior to this occurrence, no race has ever gone more than three months without a premiere tournament win, even when in terrible shape otherwise. The truth is that although we know it seems like Terran was in bad shape, the closer you look at the numbers, the more you realize how ridiculous it actually was. This year has been vastly more "imbalanced" than any previous period by every measure. This has a real impact on professional players. This year is still in its early stages, so 2014 might not be as bad as 2011, but the first six months have been unprecedented in their ridiculous one sidedness. If we rewind a month ago to before Taejas wins, Protoss would have won almost four times more money than Terran this year. Also note that even if we go back to the beginning of SC2, Terran has still won the least money (although I would attribute that to poor foreigner showings). Now this is all backward looking data, and has no relevance to the current state of the game, but your statements are outright false. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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FlowOfIdeas
30 Posts
On July 02 2014 04:13 r691175002 wrote: The data does not support your claim. https://i.imgur.com/FQbyUjN.png Furthermore, Terran went something like 9 months without a premiere tournament win. Prior to this occurrence, no race has ever gone more than three months without a premiere tournament win, even when in terrible shape otherwise. The truth is that although we know it seems like Terran was in bad shape, the closer you look at the numbers, the more you realize how ridiculous it actually was. This year has been vastly more "imbalanced" than any previous period by every measure. This has a real impact on professional players. This year is still in its early stages, so 2014 might not be as bad as 2011, but the first six months have been unprecedented in their ridiculous one sidedness. If we rewind a month ago to before Taejas wins, Protoss would have won almost four times more money than Terran this year. Also note that even if we go back to the beginning of SC2, Terran has still won the least money (although I would attribute that to poor foreigner showings). Now this is all backward looking data, and has no relevance to the current state of the game, but your statements are outright false. That image you linked is for winnings, not straight up wins. Go on liquidpedia and count the NUMBER of premiere wins that Terran, Zerg, and Protoss have throughout the history of Sc2. Terran has far more. So, it's ok they are not winning every tournament right now (even though they still are). Plus, Taeja won Dreamhack Winter on November 30h, 2013, so I'm not sure wher you got your "9 months" from. | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On July 02 2014 00:50 lilsusie wrote: Wow, thanks so much guys! I understand that LotV is coming soon (WHEN?!) but the idea of maps heavily influencing game play and stagnant meta is interesting. Why were BW players able to be more innovative, do you think? Were I to venture a guess on that, LotV won't be out until HotS is out (assuming they're using the same devs), and then they'll have to get back into the dev process for SC2, so I'm gonna guess at least 2 years from now. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
If Protoss can only play with all-ins and wins 50% of the time, that's not a good game. That and maps make a huge difference. Regardless, the most important thing is the fun of the game -- balance only consists of very little of that. Blizzard should be "balancing" the player's abilities to play each race. Make the units/races more difficult to use but more rewarding, so that only the better players get the "buff". Changes to the game should only be made to make it more fun, dynamic, and spectator-friendly. Units need to feel different and important. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
SC2 is a much more difficult game to balance correctly, as the game has so many different gimmicky abilities and things that make the game easier for everyone(Which can be good, if BW was too hard for people to play), which in turn makes the game completely different in terms of how to balance it, SC2 and BW are both starcraft and have similarities, but SC2 is a completely different game, so in terms of how balancing goes, they can't be balanced the same.... I think Blizzard is going about the right way of patching the game in the speed in which they give te patches, but what they are doing wrong is just buffing / nerfing specific units drastically, I know this sounds extreme and crazy and Blizz has already stated they won't do this, but in LotV I think they should just make it 3D BroodWar.... There is too many units in SC2 that don't even get used, too many gimmicks, and things that encourage all in / cheese...I want Broodwar 2.0 please....  | ||
lilsusie
3861 Posts
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SystemXN
China105 Posts
Terran needs to be redesigned from basic concept: Make Terran easier to use and expert. Only with this blizzard can adjust balance without worrying any buffs would make Terran elitists too op. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On July 02 2014 10:38 lilsusie wrote: It's kinda cool to see that many of you guys feel the same way as many of the Koreans... Yeah we are pretty much blunt about SC2's weaknesses and how there are A LOT things need to be done in order to improve the game | ||
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Axxis
United States133 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
On July 02 2014 11:27 ZenithM wrote: I honestly like the idea of having Terran weaker than the other races at the highest level. I mean, puny humans vs hive mind powerful creatures and technologically advanced aliens? They don't stand a chance. lol...beautiful way to look at it.... | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
On July 02 2014 10:38 lilsusie wrote: It's kinda cool to see that many of you guys feel the same way as many of the Koreans... Wish I understood Korean T_T I skimmed through a few of the HangShow episodes... What else have they discussed on it? I loved the BW clips. >< Saw some Heroes, too. Also, great job to you in them! Would be awesome if you could somehow bring up Starbow. Maybe get the Korean scene interested in a BW-style mod for SC2. Refer to games played by Axiom-Acer for the best plays, in general. | ||
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Dirtyharry
Germany171 Posts
Maybe it would be better to keep a undiscovered "gray zone" due patches in the game. Like give units new abilities and cancel/change old ones. There is a lot of space which isn't used at the moment, the forums are full of suggestions and Blizzard themself have for sure many ideas after making games for now 20years or something. Starcraft 2 was always most amazing when the players had to catch up with the new stuff they got. | ||
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