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On June 29 2014 20:18 ZAiNs wrote:
Because of most of it is opinionated crap and it promotes balance whine culture which is going to fill other threads and ladder with more people who think they know everything.
On June 29 2014 20:28 KingAlphard wrote:
You can find facts which prove that any race is overpowered if you want to. Searching for all the facts which prove that race X is underpowered without bringing reasons to claim that race X is overpowered or balanced at the same time, is also balance whining.
When I see those guys talking, it makes me think one thing. You people mixing whine and critics. Especially here where the critic is really interesting, true and constructive. And well argumented too.
And then, I saw you were a protoss. It explained a lot. ROFL.
You saw too many people whining without any explanation or argumentation and now, you're saying nonsense. Facts are facts, no one can deny it. It doesn't mean P or Z are imba. It is just a good sense of reflexion.
Anyway, as several people said, terran has always been the lowest race. Even in SC1.
That's exactly why so many people loved Boxer, Iloveoov or Fantasy. Because of their race, they had to reinventate the meta game to make terran able to win. And mastering terran race needs real skill about macro, in-figth MICRO and decision making.
Protoss and Zergs can deal fights quite easily but a terran has to put his whole heart to micro. After said that, I recognise that Zerg need a real good micro with queen inject. But if a Terran takes a bad decision in a fight, it is over. If you're Z or P, you can still deal with it. Kinda.
Still, even if the Terran race is the lowest of SC2, it is also the most interesting. But when you buff a race which is already strong enough, it's weird.
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I believe the answer to terran balance is clear, we must develop cybernetic arms for Mvp so that the one true king may reconquer his kingdom and once again usher in a golden era of terran dominance as he once did.
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
I remember reading something like this about Protoss not winning anything back on WOL era, and Terran weere doing just super fine, now its their time to suffer (lost) some games and make other builds or whatever.
Protoss was so weak on WOL because of the lack of defensive mechanics.
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On July 01 2014 11:51 SC2BF3Love wrote:
I remember reading something like this about Protoss not winning anything back on WOL era, and Terran weere doing just super fine, now its their time to suffer (lost) some games and make other builds or whatever.
Protoss was so weak on WOL because of the lack of defensive mechanics.
I second this. But only because it might bring MKP back to glory!
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The funny thing about this whine thread is that it is sooo sooo well wrote whine, that Blizz can show us if they react about this. I mean, if they just ignore this, then there won't be any QQ which can produce a Terran Buff.
David Kim should only nerf a little the MotherCore, and done! But if they don't do that, I wonder if they will do something stupid as buffing Terran. On the other hand... the lack of logic is a constant on the Dev Team.
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I'm not really sure there was a good old days where SC2 was truly balanced, although there were certainly periods better than now.
Not including betas, let's go over some history:
Late 2010: Terran considered OP, not winning everything since Terran play at this time was quite gimmicky, and only Mvp and Jinro really understood macro play, but they hadn't refined it.
2011: Dominated by Terrans, with a peak of 20 Terrans in GSL.
Early 2012: This is when people considered the game the most balanced, but look at the facts. 8 out of 13 premier tournaments were won by Terran before the queen patch, compared to 9 out of 13 won by Protoss this year. The last GSL Mvp won had no Zergs in the Ro8, as bad as Terran is now, Maru still made it to the Ro8.
Late 2012: BL/Infestor, what more needs to be said.
Early HotS: IMO this was patched too quickly when it was not as imbalanced as early WoL. Considered somewhat balanced but Terran still won the majority of tournaments.
Conclusion: The game has never been very well balanced, with Blizzard constantly overshooting the mark when trying to balance the game. That said, people consider the game more balanced when Terran is the OP race.
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Bisutopia19343 Posts
Are more people concerned with balance at the highest level for veiwership and entertainment purposes or for the level at which you play at?
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On July 01 2014 12:19 BisuDagger wrote:
Are more people concerned with balance at the highest level for veiwership and entertainment purposes or for the level at which you play at?
the first for me since i dont play
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On July 01 2014 12:19 BisuDagger wrote:
Are more people concerned with balance at the highest level for veiwership and entertainment purposes or for the level at which you play at?
Personally? I'm concerned with both. When the only person who can win a premier title as a Terran is Taeja, and the other Terrans are getting flattened in competition, it doesn't make for entertaining games. At the same time, it is really frustrating to keep losing games where your mechanics (money spent, supply block, workers built, and APM) is consistently better than the opponent and they happened to have enough energy for a Photon Overcharge or you didn't dodge ONE Storm perfectly or you get rolled by Banelings because sorry, the Zerg didn't stand still over the Mines. So, for me, it is both. I find the TvX games in competition to be so one-sided right now in general that they aren't as much fun to watch, while when I ladder, it's frustrating because I keep losing games where I had better play for most of the game and didn't have any saving grace for the one bad fight unlike my opponent.
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Excellent post OP. I used to love playing SC2. I used to actually wait in anticipation to get home from work, play with the kids for a few hours, and then play a few games when they went to bed, all in hopes of getting in a few good SC2 games in.
I always hated TvP, it's the least fun matchup. Playing well only to die to a single storm... stupid. I mean, baneling hits were bad enough, but storms, and 9 range colossus, just not fun.
The game, in short, has become "not fun". And that's why I stopped playing. Winning a game to a single widow mine blowing up 25 banelings? Not fun. Losing a game to a few baneling splashes on 40 marines caught out? Not fun. Losing a game to a storm in the middle of a heated battle? Even less fun. Losing 4 loaded medivacs to chain fungal? Not fun.
I really wish this game would go through some extensive renewed Beta. Something where they patch multiple things once a week, play it out, keep some, only toss the ridiculous, and do more patching again the next week. They certainly can't break it anymore than it already is.
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Hider, i agree with what you said. But race representation in master league, GM or even GSL is mid-long term and is not a good measure of current balance. It can be showing the balance from last season and maybe from a year ago, since people that go down on ladder or whatever have a hard time climbing back. 24% GM in korean ladder for terran should represent a long period of terran UPness, even if its not a big imbalance.
Im quite sure the overall balance for HotS is terrible for terran, with a good start and then went down and down. But i said before, terran is not going to populate GSL (or GM) in a week, even if the game reaches (or reached) balance its going to take some time.
Bisu: Im concerned with both to be honest. I play terran sometimes but even if i didn't i want a fair game.
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On July 01 2014 12:52 Superbanana wrote:
Hider, i agree with what you said. But race representation in master league, GM or even GSL is mid-long term and is not a good measure of current balance. It can be showing the balance from last season and maybe from a year ago, since people that go down on ladder or whatever have a hard time climbing back. 24% GM in korean ladder for terran should represent a long period of terran UPness, even if its not a big imbalance.
Im quite sure the overall balance for HotS is terrible for terran, with a good start and then went down and down. But i said before, terran is not going to populate GSL (or GM) in a week, even if the game reaches (or reached) balance its going to take some time.
Bisu: Im concerned with both to be honest. I play terran sometimes but even if i didn't i want a fair game.
With the 2014 changes to the GSL format they could patch Terran before Code A and Terran would populate GSL in a week. (a few weeks really)
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On July 01 2014 12:19 BisuDagger wrote:
Are more people concerned with balance at the highest level for veiwership and entertainment purposes or for the level at which you play at?
The first mostly since balance at the top trickles down to the lower leagues, if a bit unevenly.
Where you consider highest level is a bit more complicated.
Personally I think if Terran is in a spot where only Maru can consistently place well in GSL and Taeja is the only Terran winning tournaments and that's against vastly inferior competition then I'm going to say that that's a problem.
Highest level to me means that Terran representation and viability in Korea via Proleague and GSL is balanced with Zerg and Protoss. We have not had that at all at any point in 2014.
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On July 01 2014 12:19 BisuDagger wrote:
Are more people concerned with balance at the highest level for veiwership and entertainment purposes or for the level at which you play at?
Inside a SC2 fan like myself, there's a feeling that makes me cheer and care about someone who plays the same race. I put so much hope on a match when a Terran god is playing. But after seeing so many of my heroes get destroyed, dismantled, and cheesed out... it kind of gnaws at me. Especially when it seems so unfair.
In the past, whenever the game was fairly balanced, those feelings didn't exist. Even if a Terran hero lost, it felt good to see someone else having legitimately beaten him. I was happy for DRG. I cheered for Nestea. I rooted for MC. I even wanted Squirtle to beat Mvp. But once the Infestor Broodlord days began... once the realization that the best of the best of Terran couldn't win anymore... those feelings disappeared for me. Matches went from exciting to hopeless. Defeats went from honorable to disgusting. Watching my Terran champions lose to unbeatable opponents who had seemingly come out of nowhere, the "Patch Zergs", hurt SC2 a lot for me. And while HOTS stabilized the game again for a while, and I could begin to watch the game with excitement and passion, and cheer for Protoss and even Zerg again, the state of the game has once again slipped back into despair.
This has not only ruined watching competitive SC2 for me, but when I log on to play, those feelings tend to follow. Do I legitimately believe that I lose to Zerg or to Protoss because the game is unfair? No, I know that I could beat them if I was just better. But it still brings out the frustrations that I see on the faces of the best players in the world when they lose to similar BS.
TL:DR - It affects both, but it started with watching it at the competitive level, and infected the feelings behind my personal play from there.
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United States97276 Posts
On July 01 2014 12:19 BisuDagger wrote:
Are more people concerned with balance at the highest level for veiwership and entertainment purposes or for the level at which you play at?
highest level for me because I believe in the lower levels that perceived imbalance can be overcome with skill, especially in the lower leagues. It might require more work out of some people but it's not like your opponent is playing perfect on the other side and is still exploitable.
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One thing i would like to add about pvt late game, is thorzain's old wol style tvp (he was very good late game tvp).
Where he used to use late game reaper squads to defend against zealot warp ins. he would put a bunker at each expansion, and then have the reapers (with their speed upgrades) running around to defend again warp ins, it was actually more effective than manning the bunkers with marines becuase the dps per supply was better, but was inadvertantly nerfed when reapers
dps was changed in hots. (obviously due to it being uncommon).
Although not great, it was a bit of a bandaide solution that thorzain found, and probably part of the reason that he's not doing so well in hots now..
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On July 01 2014 13:07 CakeSauc3 wrote:
In the past, whenever the game was fairly balanced, those feelings didn't exist. Even if a Terran hero lost, it felt good to see someone else having legitimately beaten him. I was happy for DRG. I cheered for Nestea. I rooted for MC. I even wanted Squirtle to beat Mvp. But once the Infestor Broodlord days began... once the realization that the best of the best of Terran couldn't win anymore... those feelings disappeared for me. Matches went from exciting to hopeless. Defeats went from honorable to disgusting. Watching my Terran champions lose to unbeatable opponents who had seemingly come out of nowhere, the "Patch Zergs", hurt SC2 a lot for me. And while HOTS stabilized the game again for a while, and I could begin to watch the game with excitement and passion, and cheer for Protoss and even Zerg again, the state of the game has once again slipped back into despair.
But that's the problem, you legitimately think Terrans were the best players and that the game was balanced at a previous time instead of recognizing that Terran was OP for a very long time. Broodlord/Infestor was the time when the game actually had the highest race diversity among premier tournament winners, and it was still a time when the game was very broken and imbalanced.
People's terran heroes benefited from imbalance much like the patch zergs and it can reasonably be concluded that Blizzard has failed to adequately balance the game at all its stages, not just in 2014.
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On July 01 2014 13:21 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 13:07 CakeSauc3 wrote:
In the past, whenever the game was fairly balanced, those feelings didn't exist. Even if a Terran hero lost, it felt good to see someone else having legitimately beaten him. I was happy for DRG. I cheered for Nestea. I rooted for MC. I even wanted Squirtle to beat Mvp. But once the Infestor Broodlord days began... once the realization that the best of the best of Terran couldn't win anymore... those feelings disappeared for me. Matches went from exciting to hopeless. Defeats went from honorable to disgusting. Watching my Terran champions lose to unbeatable opponents who had seemingly come out of nowhere, the "Patch Zergs", hurt SC2 a lot for me. And while HOTS stabilized the game again for a while, and I could begin to watch the game with excitement and passion, and cheer for Protoss and even Zerg again, the state of the game has once again slipped back into despair. But that's the problem, you legitimately think Terrans were the best players and that the game was balanced at a previous time instead of recognizing that Terran was OP for a very long time. Broodlord/Infestor was the time when the game actually had the highest race diversity among premier tournament winners, and it was still a time when the game was very broken and imbalanced. People's terran heroes benefited from imbalance much like the patch zergs and it can reasonably be concluded that Blizzard has failed to adequately balance the game at all its stages, not just in 2014.
Oh, I definitely think Terran was OP for a time. Early through mid 2011 especially. It seems like after that, though, there was a time when the game was in a great state, but then Blizzard patched it to hell in mid 2012 and it's never fully recovered since.
However, I'm sure I'm biased. I'm sure I'm not the most objective spectator and player ever. I was only ever a low Masters player at best, and while I have logged nearly as many games playing Random as I have as Terran to understand the other races and have spent plenty of time learning Protoss and Zerg builds, I still consider Terran my go-to race. But I can tell you how I feel. And I think I can tell you that many other players feel the same as me.
I agree with your last statement, too. It's sad that there always seems to be one race getting the glory, one other race competing but mostly failing while the last race has to simply observe from the sidelines.
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This has been an issue for years now. I don't understand why people want to sweep it under the rug and cease discussing it.
If we pretend everything is okay Browder is just going to congratulate himself for a few months and then double DT speed or something equally retarded.
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EPT
