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On July 01 2014 04:40 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 04:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 01 2014 03:59 aZealot wrote:On June 30 2014 20:33 SC2Toastie wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/13273137416?page=2#35
Psione wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions, Winks. The level of analysis and overall tone of your post is appreciated.
The frequency of balance changes is something that we get a lot of feedback on. There are some players who want us to update balance more frequently, and some players who would like us to update less frequently. As we've mentioned in the past, we feel that the player base needs time to adjust to balance changes and constant updating could lead to less progress in this area. That isn't to say we won't look to push for a balance update when we feel it's appropriate, only that we feel new changes need time to be explored before we can decide if further changes may be needed.
While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics. The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored. Additionally, with Season 3 starting soon we'll be introducing several new maps. As stated in your post, maps are linked to game balance, so it makes sense for us to wait and see how the new maps affect the match-ups.
The thoughts in this thread, and similar threads, are all being read and will be passed along and discussed. This is something we do on a consistent basis, and more detailed posts like these help promote interesting discussion on our end.
Thanks again, and please continue to share your thoughts.
TL;DR Thanks for the effort and overwhelming evidence you put out. We're gonna sit and check in a couple of weeks! I, for one, am very pleased there will be no further test maps or patches in the near future and that Blizzard have said so. I hope they stick to their guns and, ideally, re-evaluate in about 2 months or so. Ironically enough, it is also in the spirit of the OP's actual argument regarding over-patching. We have had many patches recently. Time to let the game settle. If they leave the game in a decent state, I'm all for giving much time to figure stuff out. As of now, Blizzard broke a pretty well balanced game because Zergs qq'd about having to micro and they randomly buffed Oracles, as well as making a mess of the map pool. You cannot take a balanced game, unbalance it for no apparant reason and wait afterwards because 'Terran should figure stuff out'. Blizzard has been shafting/neglecting Terran for close to three years in their balance policy, it's been enough. Terran has no options to explore. MMM does it's stuff. Ghosts? Only vs HT Vikings? Only vs Collosi/Broodlords Ravens, Tanks, Mines, Thors, Battlecruisers, Ravens, Banshee, Hellions, Hellbats? All really, really situational and probably even poor at that. Terran early game was too powerful, 4 years ago. Because of that, a poor lategame was no problem as Terran could easily head there with an advantage. As of now, Terran early and midgame get weakened and weakened, maps get larger, both opposing races got better early defense. Terran lategame, however, still non-existent. You cannot be surprised a race is suffering if you remove it's strenght and force the race to go for a macro game every game (Terran has no cheese/all-in that works well consistently) while you keep the late game of said race terribly weak, well, the race is in trouble. And there have been a number of patches in the recent past to address that. There is irony in dwf's argument that he rails against over-patching at the start of his piece and then appears to say that the recent patches have not been enough. There is an incoherence there. And some of the recent balance suggestions popping up in this thread, almost inevitable now, have been borderline idiotic. There is nothing in the game so broken that it must be fixed now and that it cannot wait for all the recent patches to simmer in the off-season and for their effects to be seen in the season to come. Again, dwf's post gave plenty of examples of strategy taking time to evolve from both Protoss and Zerg, and the danger of knee-jerk reactions. Our community, IMO, has a poor grasp of history as we tend to repeat the same behaviours over and over and over again. Blizzard have said they will wait. Good on them, I say. Time to shut up and play the game. If a patch is needed, say directed at Zerg in 2 - 3 months, so be it.
You ignore the part where I said I am in favor of leaving the game alone, but not in a state that is clearly not recoverable.
I'm against overpatched, I prefer having 3 patches that get a stat slowly towards the desired number, instead of massively overbuffing and causing tons of problems along the way.
Also, a problem I have with these kneejerks,
Mine nerf was a nerf to Terran with no real reasoning other than 'stale game'. A nerf to a race in a perfectly balanced matchup, with no compensation (loltanks).
Stuff like instant Ghost nerfs, blueflame nerfs, Hellbats were nerfed for 3 matchups whilst only problematic in the mirror, etcetera.
My problem is Blizzard practicing caution when it involves P/Z, but whenever Terran is involved, shit gets nerfed literally within days or terran gets nerfed without any clear reasoning whatsover.
It's this "uneven" way of balancing that brought Terran into the mess it now is.
On July 01 2014 04:42 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 04:08 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 01 2014 03:59 aZealot wrote:On June 30 2014 20:33 SC2Toastie wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/13273137416?page=2#35
Psione wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions, Winks. The level of analysis and overall tone of your post is appreciated.
The frequency of balance changes is something that we get a lot of feedback on. There are some players who want us to update balance more frequently, and some players who would like us to update less frequently. As we've mentioned in the past, we feel that the player base needs time to adjust to balance changes and constant updating could lead to less progress in this area. That isn't to say we won't look to push for a balance update when we feel it's appropriate, only that we feel new changes need time to be explored before we can decide if further changes may be needed.
While we have no immediate plans for another balance test map, we've seen the ongoing discussion on Terran/Zerg/Protoss performance and we'll continue monitor and discuss these topics. The most recent balance update was a little over four weeks ago, and we feel that the effects of this update are still being explored. Additionally, with Season 3 starting soon we'll be introducing several new maps. As stated in your post, maps are linked to game balance, so it makes sense for us to wait and see how the new maps affect the match-ups.
The thoughts in this thread, and similar threads, are all being read and will be passed along and discussed. This is something we do on a consistent basis, and more detailed posts like these help promote interesting discussion on our end.
Thanks again, and please continue to share your thoughts.
TL;DR Thanks for the effort and overwhelming evidence you put out. We're gonna sit and check in a couple of weeks! I, for one, am very pleased there will be no further test maps or patches in the near future and that Blizzard have said so. I hope they stick to their guns and, ideally, re-evaluate in about 2 months or so. Ironically enough, it is also in the spirit of the OP's actual argument regarding over-patching. We have had many patches recently. Time to let the game settle. If they leave the game in a decent state, I'm all for giving much time to figure stuff out. As of now, Blizzard broke a pretty well balanced game because Zergs qq'd about having to micro and they randomly buffed Oracles, as well as making a mess of the map pool. You cannot take a balanced game, unbalance it for no apparant reason and wait afterwards because 'Terran should figure stuff out'. Blizzard has been shafting/neglecting Terran for close to three years in their balance policy, it's been enough. Terran has no options to explore. MMM does it's stuff. Ghosts? Only vs HT Vikings? Only vs Collosi/Broodlords Ravens, Tanks, Mines, Thors, Battlecruisers, Ravens, Banshee, Hellions, Hellbats? All really, really situational and probably even poor at that. Terran early game was too powerful, 4 years ago. Because of that, a poor lategame was no problem as Terran could easily head there with an advantage. As of now, Terran early and midgame get weakened and weakened, maps get larger, both opposing races got better early defense. Terran lategame, however, still non-existent. You cannot be surprised a race is suffering if you remove it's strenght and force the race to go for a macro game every game (Terran has no cheese/all-in that works well consistently) while you keep the late game of said race terribly weak, well, the race is in trouble. I agree with alot of what you said. However I disagree with the bold part. Vs Zerg terran have the 2 rax/bunker rush. That cheese has worked well consistently since the beta of sc2. While terran doesn't have alot of cheeses, the 2rax always has a chance to kill zerg.
You can bane bust, early pool and roach rush your way through a tournament. People like Has exist and have succes. Zerg and Protoss have a plethoria of effective cheeses and can make deep runs without making a third/fourth base.
Terran has the 11/11 which whilst powerful, relies on greedy play/ a lack of scouting/ mistakes. It will not win you tournaments. Notice the word 'consistently'. 11/11 is certainly still very powerful, but as it's the only cheese, it's also easily dealt with and not reliable.
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On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.)
INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others.
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On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others.
Inno didn't make it past RO16
The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in
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On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others.
Limited success = not winning a tournament of note, i.e. WCS Event. Scarlett took the Red Bull one, and Snute ofc won lately. BIG Tournaments though? Not so much.. Usually ends up being a Korean PvZ fest of late.
Just because a foreigner makes it to the ro16 doesn't make them successful but that is just my opinion.
Premier Events List: Proof is in the pudding.
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On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in
A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea.
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So, Is Terran fine and balanced?
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On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea.
A big chunk.
You mean Bomber, ForGG, Jjakji, Heart, Alive, Yoda, MVP, MMA?
These are the WCS NA/EU Terrans.
Note, they all frequently drop maps or even series to foreign Zergs/Protosses and none of them has acchieved anything big in recent history.
Care to explain the mystical Terrans you speak of?
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On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea.
I've heard this argument reiterated a lot, but I don't buy it. This argument would hold a lot of more merit were korean terrans outside of korea winning tournaments instead of losing to foreigners. The argument could be made for taeja, but other terrans are a harder sell.
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On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea.
So are a big chunk of every damn race.
But we still see a bunch of mediocre ones making it into the RO32, we don't see that for Terran
Where is aLive? KeeN? TY? Cure? Reality? Fantasy? GOD DAMN FLASH?
These players can't make it past Code A.
Only BByong, Supernova and Inno made it through that, there should honestly be like, 4 more terrans at least even when terrans are weaker than normal, but there's almost none of the tier two
and yes, Bbyong was in Code S this go-round. Polt isn't Code S quality (loltrap) and MMA and ForGG face the same problem in WCS EU. Hell. Lets look at WCS eu. 10 terrans Ro32, down to TWO in the Ro16, down to 1 in the Ro8
Thats a huge drop off as the competition gets fiercer.
Terran is just -not- ok.
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On July 01 2014 05:46 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea. A big chunk. You mean Bomber, ForGG, Jjakji, Heart, Alive, Yoda, MVP, MMA? These are the WCS NA/EU Terrans. Note, they all frequently drop maps or even series to foreign Zergs/Protosses and none of them has acchieved anything big in recent history. Care to explain the mystical Terrans you speak of?
Exactly those guys. I agree terran is struggling recently, but i think the main factor for the lack of terrans in GSL is the absence of those names. And any korean can drop maps to foreigners.
I just think there is too much drama when the winrates for terran are ok, specially after the recent patches.
edit: Terran can be struggling a lot or a little, but there is too much drama anyway.
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On July 01 2014 05:52 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea. A big chunk. You mean Bomber, ForGG, Jjakji, Heart, Alive, Yoda, MVP, MMA? These are the WCS NA/EU Terrans. Note, they all frequently drop maps or even series to foreign Zergs/Protosses and none of them has acchieved anything big in recent history. Care to explain the mystical Terrans you speak of? Exactly those guys. I agree terran is struggling recently, but i think the main factor for the lack of terrans in GSL is the absence of those names. And any korean can drop maps to foreigners. I just think there is too much drama when the winrates for terran are ok, specially after the recent patches.
how is terran ok
Where.
Because besides Taeja beating up on a bunch of foreigners that aren't even near his level, they look pretty bad.
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On July 01 2014 05:52 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea. A big chunk. You mean Bomber, ForGG, Jjakji, Heart, Alive, Yoda, MVP, MMA? These are the WCS NA/EU Terrans. Note, they all frequently drop maps or even series to foreign Zergs/Protosses and none of them has acchieved anything big in recent history. Care to explain the mystical Terrans you speak of? Exactly those guys. I agree terran is struggling recently, but i think the main factor for the lack of terrans in GSL is the absence of those names. And any korean can drop maps to foreigners. I just think there is too much drama when the winrates for terran are ok, specially after the recent patches.
Excuse me?
Firstly, is that list of players better than Keen, TY, Flash, Bbyong, Fantasy, Reality, Cure? Because those players went down to code B at the first instance. If you think that their absense in the main factor for the lack of terran, your disillusion.
Secondly, the winrates aren't fine.
47% vs Protoss, 44% vs Zerg. While those numbers are worrying on their own, it gets worse.
The amount of TvT is 1/4th of PvP, 1/5 of ZvZ. That means the population for Terran is horrifically low.
In other words, THE VERY VERY BEST TERRANS IN THE WORLD, Maru and Taeja et al., play verse Tier 2/3/4 Zerg/Protosses and STILL have losing winrates.
That is not slightly worrying. That is downright insulting and only indicative of a big flaw in game balance.
As a last sidenote, yes, every Korean can drop maps to foreigners. It's just interesting that those koreans are usually Terrans and those foreigners are usually not. Just a curious incident, I suppose?
Source? Aligulac.
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Also, I'm getting kinda annoyed by all the one-line nay-sayers that ramble and ramble and ignore clear evidence all the time. It's a discussion forum, not a "T_T DONT NERF ME TERRAN OP LOOK AT MY STATS" shout contest. A lot of people pop in, say something random, clearly not having read the thread, and continue to ignore arguments made in favor of spouting random blablabla
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On July 01 2014 05:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:52 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea. A big chunk. You mean Bomber, ForGG, Jjakji, Heart, Alive, Yoda, MVP, MMA? These are the WCS NA/EU Terrans. Note, they all frequently drop maps or even series to foreign Zergs/Protosses and none of them has acchieved anything big in recent history. Care to explain the mystical Terrans you speak of? Exactly those guys. I agree terran is struggling recently, but i think the main factor for the lack of terrans in GSL is the absence of those names. And any korean can drop maps to foreigners. I just think there is too much drama when the winrates for terran are ok, specially after the recent patches. The amount of TvT is 1/4th of PvP, 1/5 of ZvZ. That means the population for Terran is horrifically low.In other words, THE VERY VERY BEST TERRANS IN THE WORLD, Maru and Taeja et al., play verse Tier 2/3/4 Zerg/Protosses and STILL have losing winrates. That is not slightly worrying. That is downright insulting and only indicative of a big flaw in game balance. Source? Aligulac.
That's sad, and downright scary. Surely Blizzard has noticed this?
Maybe they didn't want to say anything, but now who knows? Hard evidence is hard to shy away from
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On July 01 2014 05:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:52 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea. A big chunk. You mean Bomber, ForGG, Jjakji, Heart, Alive, Yoda, MVP, MMA? These are the WCS NA/EU Terrans. Note, they all frequently drop maps or even series to foreign Zergs/Protosses and none of them has acchieved anything big in recent history. Care to explain the mystical Terrans you speak of? Exactly those guys. I agree terran is struggling recently, but i think the main factor for the lack of terrans in GSL is the absence of those names. And any korean can drop maps to foreigners. I just think there is too much drama when the winrates for terran are ok, specially after the recent patches. Excuse me? Firstly, is that list of players better than Keen, TY, Flash, Bbyong, Fantasy, Reality, Cure? Because those players went down to code B at the first instance. If you think that their absense in the main factor for the lack of terran, your disillusion. Secondly, the winrates aren't fine. 47% vs Protoss, 44% vs Zerg. While those numbers are worrying on their own, it gets worse. The amount of TvT is 1/4th of PvP, 1/5 of ZvZ. That means the population for Terran is horrifically low. In other words, THE VERY VERY BEST TERRANS IN THE WORLD, Maru and Taeja et al., play verse Tier 2/3/4 Zerg/Protosses and STILL have losing winrates. That is not slightly worrying. That is downright insulting and only indicative of a big flaw in game balance. As a last sidenote, yes, every Korean can drop maps to foreigners. It's just interesting that those koreans are usually Terrans and those foreigners are usually not. Just a curious incident, I suppose? Source? Aligulac.
No, that means all the terrans together have losing winrates vs all toss and zerg together. And its around a 45% margin, thats not terrible and we had 2 buffs recently to help terran.
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On July 01 2014 06:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
Also, I'm getting kinda annoyed by all the one-line nay-sayers that ramble and ramble and ignore clear evidence all the time. It's a discussion forum, not a "T_T DONT NERF ME TERRAN OP LOOK AT MY STATS" shout contest. A lot of people pop in, say something random, clearly not having read the thread, and continue to ignore arguments made in favor of spouting random blablabla
It's because no arguments have been made, just opinions being stated as fact with flimsy statistics to back them up.
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On July 01 2014 06:08 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 06:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
Also, I'm getting kinda annoyed by all the one-line nay-sayers that ramble and ramble and ignore clear evidence all the time. It's a discussion forum, not a "T_T DONT NERF ME TERRAN OP LOOK AT MY STATS" shout contest. A lot of people pop in, say something random, clearly not having read the thread, and continue to ignore arguments made in favor of spouting random blablabla It's because no arguments have been made, just opinions being stated as fact with flimsy statistics to back them up.
then how do you explain the absolute nosedive in terran performance
did all the terrans magically get worse at the same time?
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On July 01 2014 05:52 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2014 05:46 SC2Toastie wrote:On July 01 2014 05:41 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 05:11 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 05:08 Superbanana wrote:On July 01 2014 04:29 Ctone23 wrote:On July 01 2014 04:07 Shaella wrote:On July 01 2014 03:58 Melliflue wrote:
It is still TaeJa carrying the Terrans but the effect of the KeSPA switch players could be important. This makes we wonder where the KeSPA switch Terrans are. Only Bogus/INnoVation has had any success out of the KeSPA switch Terrans, and he lost form after moving to Acer. Maybe the rise of these KeSPA switch players and absence of KeSPA switch Terrans has contributed to the recent Terran problems.
Why there are not as many KeSPA switch Terrans could be down to balance, but could also be something about the way Brood War Terran plays compared to SC2 Terran that means the BW skillset for BW Terrans is not as helpful for playing Terran in SC2. TaeJa and Maru, the two often held up as the hopes for Terran to win a tournament, never played BW professionally.
The problem is that there are literally only two terrans that matter, Taeja and Maru, when all of the tier 2 has disappeared, you know there's a real problem Yeah, it's easy to see the face value and listen to Blizzard when they say "Terran has won X out of Y tournaments, so we think they are okay". If only two top-level Koreans can make moves in the GSL/Proleague/WCS, that should be worrying. Small tweaks here and there could be made to help Foreigner Terrans compete, at some level.(Faust made some cool suggestions earlier.) We see foreign Protoss and Zerg players seeing a limited amount of success, but nothing major. (After all, it is a Korean dominated sport.) INnoVation was ok in GSL, Flash is doing great in proleague, and the "tier 2 that disappeared" in Shaella post are Jjakji, Polt, Bbyong, MMA and ForGG. So its not as bad as you say. Also, can you tell me what is the limited amount of sucess for foreign protoss? Because i think protoss foreigners are doing as well as Major, Bunny, Happy and a few others. Inno didn't make it past RO16 The fact that there's only 4 FUCKING TERRANS in GSL code S should have clued you in, Flash didn't even make it in A big chunk of top terrans are not playing in Korea. A big chunk. You mean Bomber, ForGG, Jjakji, Heart, Alive, Yoda, MVP, MMA? These are the WCS NA/EU Terrans. Note, they all frequently drop maps or even series to foreign Zergs/Protosses and none of them has acchieved anything big in recent history. Care to explain the mystical Terrans you speak of? Exactly those guys. I agree terran is struggling recently, but i think the main factor for the lack of terrans in GSL is the absence of those names. And any korean can drop maps to foreigners. I just think there is too much drama when the winrates for terran are ok, specially after the recent patches. edit: Terran can be struggling a lot or a little, but there is too much drama anyway.
Bomber is notoriously bad against Protoss. MMA has even worse problems against Protoss. He wouldn't do well either. ForGG? He couldn't beat a Zerg to save his life pre-hellbat patch. And even now I still don't think he can do it against the best. Jjakji was good, but went downhill in the last month. Heart has good TvZ I'll grant you that. But he hasnt fought the upper echelon of ZvT'ers and his TvP is suspect as well (beating Pigbaby is not much to go on either way).
Alive is bad.
Yoda is worse.
MVP is even worse than that.
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EPT
