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On June 30 2014 06:00 goofyballer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 30 2014 05:02 goofyballer wrote:
How is it that a site which usually moderates balance whining pretty heavily could allow an article to be published that spends thousands of words crying about how unfair Blizzard is to one race? Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)." No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise. So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread? Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker. I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho. Ten dollars? Oh wow, what great inspiration to spend hours and hours of my time writing thousands of words of balance whine, to be able to purchase ten junior bacon cheeseburgers when I'm done. You must be a professional Terran player to be this broke.
1. The fck is junior cheeseburger, and why does it only cost 1 buck.
2. I think it was to me.
3. Good point anyway.
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On June 30 2014 05:14 tjtombo wrote:
It's sad how many people dismiss the article as bad and toxic without offering any counter-argument
The article is bad and toxic because it's several thousand words of balance whine. Balance whine is bad and toxic.
Look, if you follow professional Starcraft it's plainly obvious that Terran is underrepresented at the highest levels. Blizzard knows this and they're going to try to fix it with a new map pool next season. That's like a week away. But let's balance whine in the meantime. Why not?
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On June 30 2014 05:45 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:41 y0su wrote:On June 30 2014 05:31 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:27 Kevn23 wrote:
How about discuss the issues being presented in the article rather than why this is posted people. When you are intentionally offending 2/3 of your readers in a post, then ofc people wil be upset. what specifically did you find offensive? (quote and context please) " What's more, with Hive being unlocked earlier, the Ultralisk now commonly appears on the field. Supreme winner in the contest of mindless beefy a-click units" "soO a-moves a bunch of ultras offcreep, with Queens and out of mana Infestors lagging behind; several screens of hit & run later, 2 ultras fell for 70 supply of bio. Zerg's micro requirements in this sequence? Null: hands lifted from keyboard would have made literally no difference. " "Lategame is the phase in which this disparity is the most blatant. Something goes dramatically wrong for Zerg? Don't panic, for the great forgiveness of an immediate buyback is there: as long as resources are available, the legion of larvae awaiting near the hatches can be mobilized at once to raise a new army of mass lings and a few ultras; and voilà, you have your second chance. " " Illustration with TaeJa vs Snute: reaching lategame, Snute builds the money composition of 30 mutas, a few ultras… and 66 banes, i.e. more banes than TaeJa has Marines. It goes without saying that TaeJa, despite no splitting mistake, fighting offcreep and 60 supply of mutas peacefully snoring nearby, gets absolutely annihilated. Maru suffered a similar fate when Symbol a-moved 77 Banelings to his 70 Marines. At this point, Zerg can almost alt-tab and browse Twitter if he fancies; " Just to pick a few....
Why is it insulting to say that Ultras or Banes need very little micro at the point where bane numbers = marine numbers? Or that late game production is drastically different for the 3 races (specifically slower and more expensive for Terran)?
The point was not about Zerg (or Protoss) player micro abilities. The unit designs/interaction (specifically in Z/P v T) do not benefit much from micro (partially because of stimmed bio). The point was that Terran lacks something to force Zerg to micro.
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I find it quite interesting how everyone here is talking about the fact that its an editorial which is why it obviously reflects subjectivity but noone adresses the way he is being biased.
He's not just "biased". Hes actually discrediting. Thats what I was talking about earlier. A little bias here and there - whatever man.
My point is, the article is huge, looks professional and probably took a shitton of work.
Why the hell would you ruin that with retarded statements (Even tho hes backing up most of them with "facts") like "all it took was aclick for X protoss to beat Y Top3-in-the-world Terran". That stuff just annoys me if I think about how hard it actually is to play this game, not just for Terrans.
To me that kinda feels like "Hey, look, im terran so even tho im on x level, im actually 10 times better than you think because Terran is so much harder than anything else on this planet!"
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On June 30 2014 06:02 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 06:00 goofyballer wrote:On June 30 2014 05:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 30 2014 05:02 goofyballer wrote:
How is it that a site which usually moderates balance whining pretty heavily could allow an article to be published that spends thousands of words crying about how unfair Blizzard is to one race? Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)." No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise. So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread? Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker. I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho. Ten dollars? Oh wow, what great inspiration to spend hours and hours of my time writing thousands of words of balance whine, to be able to purchase ten junior bacon cheeseburgers when I'm done. You must be a professional Terran player to be this broke. 1. The fck is junior cheeseburger, and why does it only cost 1 buck. 2. I think it was to me. 3. Good point anyway.
American fast food. I can only imagine it costs a dollar because nothing inside it is real.
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On June 30 2014 06:04 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:45 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:41 y0su wrote:On June 30 2014 05:31 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:27 Kevn23 wrote:
How about discuss the issues being presented in the article rather than why this is posted people. When you are intentionally offending 2/3 of your readers in a post, then ofc people wil be upset. what specifically did you find offensive? (quote and context please) " What's more, with Hive being unlocked earlier, the Ultralisk now commonly appears on the field. Supreme winner in the contest of mindless beefy a-click units" "soO a-moves a bunch of ultras offcreep, with Queens and out of mana Infestors lagging behind; several screens of hit & run later, 2 ultras fell for 70 supply of bio. Zerg's micro requirements in this sequence? Null: hands lifted from keyboard would have made literally no difference. " "Lategame is the phase in which this disparity is the most blatant. Something goes dramatically wrong for Zerg? Don't panic, for the great forgiveness of an immediate buyback is there: as long as resources are available, the legion of larvae awaiting near the hatches can be mobilized at once to raise a new army of mass lings and a few ultras; and voilà, you have your second chance. " " Illustration with TaeJa vs Snute: reaching lategame, Snute builds the money composition of 30 mutas, a few ultras… and 66 banes, i.e. more banes than TaeJa has Marines. It goes without saying that TaeJa, despite no splitting mistake, fighting offcreep and 60 supply of mutas peacefully snoring nearby, gets absolutely annihilated. Maru suffered a similar fate when Symbol a-moved 77 Banelings to his 70 Marines. At this point, Zerg can almost alt-tab and browse Twitter if he fancies; " Just to pick a few.... Why is it insulting to say that Ultras or Banes need very little micro at the point where bane numbers = marine numbers? Or that late game production is drastically different for the 3 races (specifically slower and more expensive for Terran)? The point was not about Zerg (or Protoss) player micro abilities. The unit designs/interaction ( specifically in Z/P v T) do not benefit much from micro (partially because of stimmed bio). The point was that Terran lacks something to force Zerg to micro.
Its the language and you know it. Just look at the way you put it and then the author of this article. Its inflammatory to many people. Maybe not to you or me, but some people will take offense.
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On June 30 2014 06:07 JacobShock wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 06:04 y0su wrote:On June 30 2014 05:45 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:41 y0su wrote:On June 30 2014 05:31 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:27 Kevn23 wrote:
How about discuss the issues being presented in the article rather than why this is posted people. When you are intentionally offending 2/3 of your readers in a post, then ofc people wil be upset. what specifically did you find offensive? (quote and context please) " What's more, with Hive being unlocked earlier, the Ultralisk now commonly appears on the field. Supreme winner in the contest of mindless beefy a-click units" "soO a-moves a bunch of ultras offcreep, with Queens and out of mana Infestors lagging behind; several screens of hit & run later, 2 ultras fell for 70 supply of bio. Zerg's micro requirements in this sequence? Null: hands lifted from keyboard would have made literally no difference. " "Lategame is the phase in which this disparity is the most blatant. Something goes dramatically wrong for Zerg? Don't panic, for the great forgiveness of an immediate buyback is there: as long as resources are available, the legion of larvae awaiting near the hatches can be mobilized at once to raise a new army of mass lings and a few ultras; and voilà, you have your second chance. " " Illustration with TaeJa vs Snute: reaching lategame, Snute builds the money composition of 30 mutas, a few ultras… and 66 banes, i.e. more banes than TaeJa has Marines. It goes without saying that TaeJa, despite no splitting mistake, fighting offcreep and 60 supply of mutas peacefully snoring nearby, gets absolutely annihilated. Maru suffered a similar fate when Symbol a-moved 77 Banelings to his 70 Marines. At this point, Zerg can almost alt-tab and browse Twitter if he fancies; " Just to pick a few.... Why is it insulting to say that Ultras or Banes need very little micro at the point where bane numbers = marine numbers? Or that late game production is drastically different for the 3 races (specifically slower and more expensive for Terran)? The point was not about Zerg (or Protoss) player micro abilities. The unit designs/interaction ( specifically in Z/P v T) do not benefit much from micro (partially because of stimmed bio). The point was that Terran lacks something to force Zerg to micro. Its the language and you know it. Just look at the way you put in and them the author of this article. Its inflammatory to many people. Maybe not to you or me, but some people will take offense.
Exactly. The way you represent your bias/opinion matters [=Language].
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Any unbiased observer/player knows the meat of the article is right. And the ending is the biggest takeaway... having T be out of whack with the other races is BAD FOR THE GAME.
I don't get this fascination other races (and seemingly Blizzard) have for keeping T down. It's like being obnoxiously strong at the beginning on WoL is an unforgiveable sin. We get it, T was broken on Steppes of War. Get over it.
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I don't really see why there are people who complain about this being on TL. This is Teamliquid, they reviewed the material, they agreed to put it on their site. This is their house, they do what they want, there's no real debate to be had here.
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As a terran player, I am really astounded by the amount of work you put to back up our claims. Yes terran players get beaten by lesser players all day long at every skill level. This was accepted during years but now that even our champions are stuck in Code B, it's totally heartbreaking and demotivating.
I used to be master, now I'm stuck at Diamond #1 and I play master protoss & zergs that should not belong to the master league. They win because of a multiple little things that make their lives easier and make ours stressful & unforgiving. I'm 100% sure I have much better mechanical & decision making skill than them (GGtracker tell I have a high grandmaster spending quotient vs diamond / master sq opponents), but still lose to them often. The only cool thing playing Terran is that we have to earn our victories so hard, we really deserve them and it's so delightful.
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Welmu and elfi making Finland proud.
Good effort on the article.
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On June 30 2014 06:00 goofyballer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:24 Faust852 wrote:On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 30 2014 05:02 goofyballer wrote:
How is it that a site which usually moderates balance whining pretty heavily could allow an article to be published that spends thousands of words crying about how unfair Blizzard is to one race? Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)." No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise. So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread? Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker. I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho. Ten dollars? Oh wow, what great inspiration to spend hours and hours of my time writing thousands of words of balance whine, to be able to purchase ten junior bacon cheeseburgers when I'm done. You must be a professional Terran player to be this broke.
I could say one thousand it wouldn't change anything since I'm 100% sure there is not enough content to make a counter article this detailed.
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I really appreciate the link to games, great organization in this one.
This article seems to be quite opinionated however. For example, helbats were undoubtedly broken prior to the patch. The patch shut down Bogus' era of dominance. And from my own experience, after the nerf I was push down a division and eventually swapped races. Recently I started playing terran once again and was reminded of how much fun the race is.
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On June 30 2014 06:03 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:14 tjtombo wrote:
It's sad how many people dismiss the article as bad and toxic without offering any counter-argument The article is bad and toxic because it's several thousand words of balance whine. Balance whine is bad and toxic. Look, if you follow professional Starcraft it's plainly obvious that Terran is underrepresented at the highest levels. Blizzard knows this and they're going to try to fix it with a new map pool next season. That's like a week away. But let's balance whine in the meantime. Why not?
It's pretty disingenuous to write the article off as "balance whine". It clearly has articulate reasoning backed by evidence.
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TheDwf has outdone himself. the arguments are written with brutal flair and the arsenal of evidence and detail is astonishing. love or hate him, you have to respect the effort he poured into this.
the "sc2 potential movement" will continue to bury its head in the sand. truth is, we have every reason to hate and despair the state of this game.
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fact of the matter is that, despite all the effort that was put into making the article. I highly doubt any action will be taken into consideration. In terms of improving terran, quite frankly, I seem to wonder if blizzard even cares haha..
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I have to say I am grateful and relieved to see a down to earth article, finally, highlighted on TL about these issues.
I find myself and others playing less and less as times goes on because of the lack of care taken by Blizzard when balancing SC2, not because of the game as a core. It might sound ignorant (I do not have another conclusion?), but I often wonder what Blizzard are actually doing. Patch after patch I'm confused as if they even have a member of their staff that plays this game, let alone watches it anymore. It takes the basic observation skills to see such blindingly obvious trends/issues, month on end.
This aside, fantastic and well cited post (I can only imagine it must have taken ages), even if it does contain frustration I feel it is representative of many players, not just Terran players. Here's hoping for a change in the future rather than SC2 continuing in this direction; which I feel would inevitably be sad for us all.
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why are people complaining about this article? The facts are indisputable. Terran suck right now. The GSL, the highest level of play, is direct proof. Just like back in the day, zerg was completely OP at the end of WOL. Whenever it was pointed out, people reacted viciously even though the evidence was incontrovertible. Back then, even foreign zergs could beat korean pros on a semi regular basis. yet nobody wanted to believe it and kept making excuses.
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On June 30 2014 06:07 JacobShock wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 06:04 y0su wrote:On June 30 2014 05:45 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:41 y0su wrote:On June 30 2014 05:31 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:27 Kevn23 wrote:
How about discuss the issues being presented in the article rather than why this is posted people. When you are intentionally offending 2/3 of your readers in a post, then ofc people wil be upset. what specifically did you find offensive? (quote and context please) " What's more, with Hive being unlocked earlier, the Ultralisk now commonly appears on the field. Supreme winner in the contest of mindless beefy a-click units" "soO a-moves a bunch of ultras offcreep, with Queens and out of mana Infestors lagging behind; several screens of hit & run later, 2 ultras fell for 70 supply of bio. Zerg's micro requirements in this sequence? Null: hands lifted from keyboard would have made literally no difference. " "Lategame is the phase in which this disparity is the most blatant. Something goes dramatically wrong for Zerg? Don't panic, for the great forgiveness of an immediate buyback is there: as long as resources are available, the legion of larvae awaiting near the hatches can be mobilized at once to raise a new army of mass lings and a few ultras; and voilà, you have your second chance. " " Illustration with TaeJa vs Snute: reaching lategame, Snute builds the money composition of 30 mutas, a few ultras… and 66 banes, i.e. more banes than TaeJa has Marines. It goes without saying that TaeJa, despite no splitting mistake, fighting offcreep and 60 supply of mutas peacefully snoring nearby, gets absolutely annihilated. Maru suffered a similar fate when Symbol a-moved 77 Banelings to his 70 Marines. At this point, Zerg can almost alt-tab and browse Twitter if he fancies; " Just to pick a few.... Why is it insulting to say that Ultras or Banes need very little micro at the point where bane numbers = marine numbers? Or that late game production is drastically different for the 3 races (specifically slower and more expensive for Terran)? The point was not about Zerg (or Protoss) player micro abilities. The unit designs/interaction ( specifically in Z/P v T) do not benefit much from micro (partially because of stimmed bio). The point was that Terran lacks something to force Zerg to micro. Its the language and you know it. Just look at the way you put in and them the author of this article. Its inflammatory to many people. Maybe not to you or me, but some people will take offense.
Fair point.
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EPT
