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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:02 goofyballer wrote:
How is it that a site which usually moderates balance whining pretty heavily could allow an article to be published that spends thousands of words crying about how unfair Blizzard is to one race? Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)."
No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise.
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Norway10161 Posts
I liked the article. Thank you for the (clearly massive) effort. I'll keep that candle lit for Maru.
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On June 30 2014 05:14 tjtombo wrote:
It's sad how many people dismiss the article as bad and toxic without offering any counter-argument
Plenty of counter arguments. You are merely skipping them/dismissing them(i've read all the pages in this thread)
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I don't understand why don't terrans go ask RAIN what to do in late game?
He said it's more imba than BL/infestor in late WoL, he surely has understood something no terran ever did?
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On June 30 2014 05:18 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:14 tjtombo wrote:
It's sad how many people dismiss the article as bad and toxic without offering any counter-argument Plenty of counter arguments. You are merely skipping them/dismissing them (i've read all the pages in this thread)
On June 30 2014 05:17 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:On June 30 2014 05:01 Topdoller wrote:
Shocked this got the "OKed" to be posted by TeamLiquid. Vilifying and demeaning other Pro players achievements just because its perceived they are playing an "easier race" isn't really constructive.
People who read these types of posts no matter how well it is constructed and presented, will actually begin to believe they get beat on the ladder because they play Terran.
There will always be issues with balance in an asymmetric game. This season i look at the maps being the biggest culprit for GSL, they just to big at present and need to be made smaller.
Btw Terran look to be doing reasonably ok in Pro League, which is now the highest standard of play in SC2 SPL Round 4 (Current): PvT is 10-2............................. TvZ is 9-9. Yeah that looks balanced, but take a look at who is playing when Terran actually wins. Only the elite terrans are playing, while plenty of mediocre zergs are being sent out. If you are losing on the ladder alot to a specific race, then it's you being horrible bad, and not your race. Also i like that you think, that Bo1 games matters 
You must have a very loose definition of reading, because as you can see you responded to my post with nonsensical bullshit.
On June 30 2014 05:24 cloneThorN wrote:My bad, i meant "you guys", not "you". It's 22:30 here 
Still doesn't fix that you commented "Also i like that you think, that Bo1 games matters " this when all I was doing was posting Terran records back to a guy who just said Pro League is the most important measure and that terrans were doing okay. And then attached a random comment on ladder balance?
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To all the posters going omg can't believe someone/writer just posted this, it's so blah blah like it's a voodoo to express anything even though it's backed up by data and statistics. Most of us are grown ups here so don't act like there is nothing hugely wrong with the balance of the game for the past almost a year. How is this fair for (terran) players whose lively hoods depend on this?! And I am sure other race players would want to win on a leveled playing field as well.
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On June 30 2014 05:07 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 03:57 aZealot wrote:
I'll have to read this in full later, but initially it looks like another "I think the game should look be like X" article. The sort of opinion that if posted in SC2 General, would be closed and the OP warned. I expect better of TeamLiquid.
I am disappointed TL chose to publish it, because I do not think it will be constructive and will rather just entrench positions (and given dwf's usual whiny tone on things balance will cause even more entrenchment from players/people in the middle).
That said, I'll give it a solid read when I have the time. Then it might be time to stay away from TL for a while. Periodically the SC2 community goes on witch hunts (be it individuals or race) and this looks like another time coming up. Strangely, or not so strangely, it usually seems to happen as the season draws to a close. Too much time on our hands, I suppose. why do people think it's a good idea to comment based on NOT reading the article?
I skimmed it as I am at work (which is, often, enough to get an idea of what a piece may be like). Sorry that was not clear. I have read many of dwf's comments before, though. So, I am aware of what it may be like.
Like I said, I'll give it a solid read later. But, at the moment, I do think TL fucked up in publishing this.
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On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 30 2014 05:02 goofyballer wrote:
How is it that a site which usually moderates balance whining pretty heavily could allow an article to be published that spends thousands of words crying about how unfair Blizzard is to one race? Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)." No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise.
So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread?
Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker.
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On June 30 2014 05:21 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:18 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:14 tjtombo wrote:
It's sad how many people dismiss the article as bad and toxic without offering any counter-argument Plenty of counter arguments. You are merely skipping them/dismissing them (i've read all the pages in this thread)
Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:17 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 05:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:On June 30 2014 05:01 Topdoller wrote:
Shocked this got the "OKed" to be posted by TeamLiquid. Vilifying and demeaning other Pro players achievements just because its perceived they are playing an "easier race" isn't really constructive.
People who read these types of posts no matter how well it is constructed and presented, will actually begin to believe they get beat on the ladder because they play Terran.
There will always be issues with balance in an asymmetric game. This season i look at the maps being the biggest culprit for GSL, they just to big at present and need to be made smaller.
Btw Terran look to be doing reasonably ok in Pro League, which is now the highest standard of play in SC2 SPL Round 4 (Current): PvT is 10-2............................. TvZ is 9-9. Yeah that looks balanced, but take a look at who is playing when Terran actually wins. Only the elite terrans are playing, while plenty of mediocre zergs are being sent out. If you are losing on the ladder alot to a specific race, then it's you being horrible bad, and not your race. Also i like that you think, that Bo1 games matters You must have a very loose definition of reading, because as you can see you responded to my post with nonsensical bullshit.
My bad, i meant "you guys", not "you". It's 22:30 here
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On June 30 2014 05:22 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:17 Zealously wrote:On June 30 2014 05:03 ZAiNs wrote:On June 30 2014 05:02 goofyballer wrote:
How is it that a site which usually moderates balance whining pretty heavily could allow an article to be published that spends thousands of words crying about how unfair Blizzard is to one race? Apparently it's all fine if you say "Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than TheDwf)." No, it's "all fine" if you put weeks of work into your post and back your claims up by several dozen examples and considerable expertise. So if IdrA/Avilo/CombatEX put weeks worth of effort to make a post, and back their claims up with statistics and example they themself picked, then it would be ok too, to make a balance thread? Because i'm pretty sure, that each of those players could make an article similar to this, and make it so that their race looked weaker.
I bet you 10$ you won't find half the content to proove a point in favor of P or Z underpowered as DwF did for T. There is so much replays/vod/other exemple it's enough to provide a point imho.
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On June 30 2014 05:13 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 04:36 HolyArrow wrote:On June 30 2014 03:20 -Celestial- wrote:
Yet again a case of "not unreasonable points, badly presented"; seems to happen a lot on these forums of late. People have been arguing about how Terran needs a buff for months now and I don't think many can disagree now, its finally pretty convincing. Whether you get your information from watching or from playing (personally I've found playing random and race switching around has been very helpful on this) its pretty clear there needs to be some tweaks.
However this editorial is unnecessarily confrontational and is, to be blunt, insulting in many places. People get on board extremely easily with the "them and us" mentality; which means you create an unbelievably toxic environment with sides and everyone screaming at each other and yelling abuse. Just look at the state this thread has devolved into.
Frankly I find this whole thing the exact opposite of constructive. You're never going to get anywhere when your strategy for garnering support for your position boils down to shouting "you're only doing well because your race is OP, my race is way harder so I'm a better player" at everyone else. Especially when you go on to lay the same accusations on their favourite pro players. Because like it or not, that's the ultimate outcome of these discussions. There is zero attempt to be constructive or to appeal for support; its merely creating sides by using language that people will instinctively react extremely badly to.
You can quote all of the stats and numbers that you like. But ultimately how they're presented DOES matter. And the way this is presented is not going to change anyone's mind; instead its merely going to incite more hatred. Exactly this. The community is already insanely toxic as it is right now, and this is just fanning the flames. I don't have much hope for this game's future when I saw the way a majority of people reacted to Scarlett beating DRG as Protoss, or Classic beating sOo in the GSL (granted, that's ZvP, but I'm just trying to show how easily people can be incited to make balance whine and my-race-is-harder-than-yours shitposts). I've never said this before, but it does appear that the game is dying, and I wouldn't be surprised if the toxicity of the community has a good deal to do with it. Who wants to be part of a community where the majority of reactions to someone winning a tournament is balance whine instead of congratulation, where people eagerly latch onto any possible piece of evidence they can use to further their "my race is harder than yours/your race is easymode" agenda? People already know that Terran needs a buff. You'd have to be insanely willfully ignorant to think that Terran is fine right now. But articles like these will do nothing but inspire more ladder BM and shitposting whenever a non-Terran wins a tournament, or a match against a Terran. Sniff sniff... It smells of hypocracy in here.. 1. You're flaming the community in the first line of your post, generalizing people you've never met, from what you have seen on forums the vast majority of the playbase don't use. 2. People found it funny that scarlett beat drg with a blind all in from her offrace. The number 1 reason why people, terran toos and zerg alike have disliked sc2 protoss for a long time now, have been because of the infinite ammount of timings protoss has, and the low skillceling to make them effective. 3. Only a small minority legitimatly thinks they lose because of race imbalance. Most of the people who say stuff like that, are people who are not fluent in english or have a hard time making arguments, who thinks it is simply boring and unfun to play vs toss, or watch toss. People hate to watch, and play, 3 things. Protoss winning overwhelmingly with a timing attack, mass raven, and zerg turtle style. If you can remove these things, the game would be SO much better. 4. No one knows what is causing terran players to be behind the other races. The problem is, that if terran recive buffs that benefit their units directly, then that escalates very quickly into terran becomming way stronger than the other races.
You make a good point that sometimes, it's just a vocal minority that makes things appear shitty. I admit that I'm just going off what I've been reading on /r/starcraft and in some recent LR threads. Still, the vocal parts of the community are the ones that matter the most when you're trying to enjoy talking about games, but feel like the environment is too hostile and/or toxic to engender actual a substantial amount of proper discussion. For example, the anti-Protoss circlejerk is so strong on /r/starcraft right now, that when I went to the comments section of the thread about the Classic vs. sOo finals, all the top comments were balance whine and shitty "Power of Protoss" posts. Any thread even remotely related to balance? Circle-jerky balance whine comments are all at the top.
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On June 30 2014 05:17 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:13 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:On June 30 2014 05:01 Topdoller wrote:
Shocked this got the "OKed" to be posted by TeamLiquid. Vilifying and demeaning other Pro players achievements just because its perceived they are playing an "easier race" isn't really constructive.
People who read these types of posts no matter how well it is constructed and presented, will actually begin to believe they get beat on the ladder because they play Terran.
There will always be issues with balance in an asymmetric game. This season i look at the maps being the biggest culprit for GSL, they just to big at present and need to be made smaller.
Btw Terran look to be doing reasonably ok in Pro League, which is now the highest standard of play in SC2 SPL Round 4 (Current): PvT is 10-2............................. TvZ is 9-9. Yeah that looks balanced, but take a look at who is playing when Terran actually wins. Only the elite terrans are playing, while plenty of mediocre zergs are being sent out. If you are losing on the ladder alot to a specific race, then it's you being horrible bad, and not your race. Also i like that you think, that Bo1 games matters
Did you miss the context here? He responded to the game who said terrans were doing good in PL, which they clearly weren't.
And whether it's bo1 or bo17 doesn't matter. Sample size does, however.
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On June 30 2014 04:54 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 02:16 Faefae wrote:On June 30 2014 02:08 cloneThorN wrote:
Also, on the point about patch terran not existing, i want to point out that the ladder on EU and NA was one-sidedy dominated by terrans doing nothing but hellbat drops(bunny, lucifron, happy and kas) I think saying that these players are "patch terran" show your lack of objecivity. Lucifron was one of the best foreigner - and the best foreign terran- by the end of wings of liberty, and i don't think anyone would say that terran was OP at the time. Kas and Happy have both been two of the best non-korean terran as well since the begining of SC2, and are - as Lucifron btw- w3 veteran. Bunny is imo the best foreign terran now, while terran is struggling lately. ¨ Bunny is the only terran of those thats worth talking about now. Before hots, only happy and lucifron was inside the top 16 of eu gm. And that "lucifron best foreigner hueheuehue" thing is biased too. He won like 1 or two things worth a small notice, and nothing else. No high placements either. The thing that makes me call them patch terrans, is that they all went from being near the top of eu ladder, to be the supreme rulers, when hellbats where introduced. I'm sorry, but one of the reasons why terrans outside KR is doing so badly, is not because of a skill disparancy, it's because they refuse to abuse terrans lategame power, and instead hope to steamroll people with mmm, as if they where playing zerg.
1. Lucifron has retired
2. He was the best foreign T at the end of WOL for sure (3rd in WCS EU 2012, second in ritmix RSL beating MMA, lowely -who was veeeeeery good vs T-, oz and others; if you wants some "high placements")
3. I'm not biased tower Lucifron but you can't really argue that he was not one of the best foreign at least at the time.
4. You are wrong when you say they were "the supreme rulers". At most in the begining of HoTS they were arround 33% of terran in GM...
5. At the beging of HoTS every mu was statistically terran favored it is true but that doesnt make them 'patch terran' since they were succesfull BEFORE, and/or AFTER the patch, right? For instance Lucifron and Kas were NOT at their strongest in the early hots day. They were not the most succesful they have been at that time. Bunny has had more success now than during the early hots day as well.
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How about discuss the issues being presented in the article rather than why this is posted people.
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On June 30 2014 05:24 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:13 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 04:36 HolyArrow wrote:On June 30 2014 03:20 -Celestial- wrote:
Yet again a case of "not unreasonable points, badly presented"; seems to happen a lot on these forums of late. People have been arguing about how Terran needs a buff for months now and I don't think many can disagree now, its finally pretty convincing. Whether you get your information from watching or from playing (personally I've found playing random and race switching around has been very helpful on this) its pretty clear there needs to be some tweaks.
However this editorial is unnecessarily confrontational and is, to be blunt, insulting in many places. People get on board extremely easily with the "them and us" mentality; which means you create an unbelievably toxic environment with sides and everyone screaming at each other and yelling abuse. Just look at the state this thread has devolved into.
Frankly I find this whole thing the exact opposite of constructive. You're never going to get anywhere when your strategy for garnering support for your position boils down to shouting "you're only doing well because your race is OP, my race is way harder so I'm a better player" at everyone else. Especially when you go on to lay the same accusations on their favourite pro players. Because like it or not, that's the ultimate outcome of these discussions. There is zero attempt to be constructive or to appeal for support; its merely creating sides by using language that people will instinctively react extremely badly to.
You can quote all of the stats and numbers that you like. But ultimately how they're presented DOES matter. And the way this is presented is not going to change anyone's mind; instead its merely going to incite more hatred. Exactly this. The community is already insanely toxic as it is right now, and this is just fanning the flames. I don't have much hope for this game's future when I saw the way a majority of people reacted to Scarlett beating DRG as Protoss, or Classic beating sOo in the GSL (granted, that's ZvP, but I'm just trying to show how easily people can be incited to make balance whine and my-race-is-harder-than-yours shitposts). I've never said this before, but it does appear that the game is dying, and I wouldn't be surprised if the toxicity of the community has a good deal to do with it. Who wants to be part of a community where the majority of reactions to someone winning a tournament is balance whine instead of congratulation, where people eagerly latch onto any possible piece of evidence they can use to further their "my race is harder than yours/your race is easymode" agenda? People already know that Terran needs a buff. You'd have to be insanely willfully ignorant to think that Terran is fine right now. But articles like these will do nothing but inspire more ladder BM and shitposting whenever a non-Terran wins a tournament, or a match against a Terran. Sniff sniff... It smells of hypocracy in here.. 1. You're flaming the community in the first line of your post, generalizing people you've never met, from what you have seen on forums the vast majority of the playbase don't use. 2. People found it funny that scarlett beat drg with a blind all in from her offrace. The number 1 reason why people, terran toos and zerg alike have disliked sc2 protoss for a long time now, have been because of the infinite ammount of timings protoss has, and the low skillceling to make them effective. 3. Only a small minority legitimatly thinks they lose because of race imbalance. Most of the people who say stuff like that, are people who are not fluent in english or have a hard time making arguments, who thinks it is simply boring and unfun to play vs toss, or watch toss. People hate to watch, and play, 3 things. Protoss winning overwhelmingly with a timing attack, mass raven, and zerg turtle style. If you can remove these things, the game would be SO much better. 4. No one knows what is causing terran players to be behind the other races. The problem is, that if terran recive buffs that benefit their units directly, then that escalates very quickly into terran becomming way stronger than the other races. You make a good point that sometimes, it's just a vocal minority that makes things appear shitty. I admit that I'm just going off what I've been reading on /r/starcraft and in some recent LR threads. Still, the vocal parts of the community are the ones that matter the most when you're trying to enjoy talking about games, but feel like the environment is too hostile and/or toxic to engender actual a substantial amount of proper discussion. For example, the anti-Protoss circlejerk is so strong on /r/starcraft right now, that when I went to the comments section of the thread about the Classic vs. sOo finals, all the top comments were balance whine and shitty "Power of Protoss" posts. Any thread even remotely related to balance? Circle-jerky balance whine comments are all at the top.
r/reddit is a circle jerk site, much like what TL.Net is rapidly becomming, with more and more mods becomming emotionally invested in the game.
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On June 30 2014 05:27 Kevn23 wrote:
How about discuss the issues being presented in the article rather than why this is posted people.
When you are intentionally offending 2/3 of your readers in a post, then ofc people wil be upset.
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On June 30 2014 05:29 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 05:24 HolyArrow wrote:On June 30 2014 05:13 cloneThorN wrote:On June 30 2014 04:36 HolyArrow wrote:On June 30 2014 03:20 -Celestial- wrote:
Yet again a case of "not unreasonable points, badly presented"; seems to happen a lot on these forums of late. People have been arguing about how Terran needs a buff for months now and I don't think many can disagree now, its finally pretty convincing. Whether you get your information from watching or from playing (personally I've found playing random and race switching around has been very helpful on this) its pretty clear there needs to be some tweaks.
However this editorial is unnecessarily confrontational and is, to be blunt, insulting in many places. People get on board extremely easily with the "them and us" mentality; which means you create an unbelievably toxic environment with sides and everyone screaming at each other and yelling abuse. Just look at the state this thread has devolved into.
Frankly I find this whole thing the exact opposite of constructive. You're never going to get anywhere when your strategy for garnering support for your position boils down to shouting "you're only doing well because your race is OP, my race is way harder so I'm a better player" at everyone else. Especially when you go on to lay the same accusations on their favourite pro players. Because like it or not, that's the ultimate outcome of these discussions. There is zero attempt to be constructive or to appeal for support; its merely creating sides by using language that people will instinctively react extremely badly to.
You can quote all of the stats and numbers that you like. But ultimately how they're presented DOES matter. And the way this is presented is not going to change anyone's mind; instead its merely going to incite more hatred. Exactly this. The community is already insanely toxic as it is right now, and this is just fanning the flames. I don't have much hope for this game's future when I saw the way a majority of people reacted to Scarlett beating DRG as Protoss, or Classic beating sOo in the GSL (granted, that's ZvP, but I'm just trying to show how easily people can be incited to make balance whine and my-race-is-harder-than-yours shitposts). I've never said this before, but it does appear that the game is dying, and I wouldn't be surprised if the toxicity of the community has a good deal to do with it. Who wants to be part of a community where the majority of reactions to someone winning a tournament is balance whine instead of congratulation, where people eagerly latch onto any possible piece of evidence they can use to further their "my race is harder than yours/your race is easymode" agenda? People already know that Terran needs a buff. You'd have to be insanely willfully ignorant to think that Terran is fine right now. But articles like these will do nothing but inspire more ladder BM and shitposting whenever a non-Terran wins a tournament, or a match against a Terran. Sniff sniff... It smells of hypocracy in here.. 1. You're flaming the community in the first line of your post, generalizing people you've never met, from what you have seen on forums the vast majority of the playbase don't use. 2. People found it funny that scarlett beat drg with a blind all in from her offrace. The number 1 reason why people, terran toos and zerg alike have disliked sc2 protoss for a long time now, have been because of the infinite ammount of timings protoss has, and the low skillceling to make them effective. 3. Only a small minority legitimatly thinks they lose because of race imbalance. Most of the people who say stuff like that, are people who are not fluent in english or have a hard time making arguments, who thinks it is simply boring and unfun to play vs toss, or watch toss. People hate to watch, and play, 3 things. Protoss winning overwhelmingly with a timing attack, mass raven, and zerg turtle style. If you can remove these things, the game would be SO much better. 4. No one knows what is causing terran players to be behind the other races. The problem is, that if terran recive buffs that benefit their units directly, then that escalates very quickly into terran becomming way stronger than the other races. You make a good point that sometimes, it's just a vocal minority that makes things appear shitty. I admit that I'm just going off what I've been reading on /r/starcraft and in some recent LR threads. Still, the vocal parts of the community are the ones that matter the most when you're trying to enjoy talking about games, but feel like the environment is too hostile and/or toxic to engender actual a substantial amount of proper discussion. For example, the anti-Protoss circlejerk is so strong on /r/starcraft right now, that when I went to the comments section of the thread about the Classic vs. sOo finals, all the top comments were balance whine and shitty "Power of Protoss" posts. Any thread even remotely related to balance? Circle-jerky balance whine comments are all at the top. r/reddit is a circle jerk site, much like what TL.Net is rapidly becomming, with more and more mods becomming emotionally invested in the game.
It would be so sad if mods weren't invested emotically into the game. Passion bro. Passion.
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Man, what a piece of art. I can not remember article that was so good prepared, that cost so much work put into it, that has so much proof for the concept it was started from, that has so much legitimate criticism for the work Blizzard made (like it or not smaller or greater mistakes were made). Great read, even for a low ranking Protoss with zero to none analysis knowledge, more a viewer then a ladder player these days.
Congratulations.
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Very nice job of putting it all in to words.
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On June 30 2014 05:27 Kevn23 wrote:
How about discuss the issues being presented in the article rather than why this is posted people.
What's there to discuss? Most people agree with the article
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EPT
