EPTOn June 30 2014 00:07 Leviance wrote:
![[image loading]](http://s14.directupload.net/images/140629/nbs6z7qz.jpg)
If you're going to disagree or criticize the article, at least try to put in as much effort in as the author did.
Welcome to ZParcraft II - Page 11
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
If you're going to disagree or criticize the article, at least try to put in as much effort in as the author did. | ||
|
DomeGetta
480 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:15 Picasso wrote: Effort put in has nothing to do with respect; respect is earned and is not something that can or should be asked for. Contrary to what some people have been saying, I don't see anybody saying the game is completely balanced. The game can only be completely fair if all players are given the same options (like in mirror matchups), and this separation is what makes the game beautiful and unique. Every race is prone to weakness at certain points in time due to these discrepancies, and I don't think anybody disagrees that Terran is the rather unfavored race as of late. But instead of purely objectively looking at the situation, thedwf let his emotions get the better of him and worded everything as if Protoss or Zerg takes no skill while Terran has an infinitely harder time in every single aspect of the game. THAT is true disrespect to how much hard work Protoss or Zerg players put into their play; already in tourneys' Twitch chat no respect is ever given to any winner except Terran, and this kind of propaganda only promotes more hate in the SC2 scene. I'd say this kind of racial bias is killing the scene a lot more than people imagine. This author just made a lengthened version of dumb Twitch phrases such as "Protossed" or "Zerg hard race Kappa." He deserves criticism. It's hard to give a lot of respect to someone who's dividing the SC2 community with blatantly biased remarks, as if the community isn't divided enough already Sorry - you should really listen to your own criticisms. You are the one letting your emotions get the better of you.. you are fixated on the fact that his opinion is that Terran is harder to play than Zerg and Protoss.. while that is not even the main point of the article, he sites his reasoning and justification of his opinion.. all you are saying here is "no no! not true !" You aren't debating any particular point.. you are casting aside the hours an hours of work it took to pull together FACTS and STATS to justify his position with NONE of your own. Leave aside his opinions - focus on the facts and meat of the content - highlight what you disagree with specifically outside of "protoss is hard!" - otherwise you aren't being remotely constructive with your feedback - you sound like someone who has had their feelings hurt and not someone who is intelligently debating the topic. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:15 Picasso wrote: Effort put in has nothing to do with respect; respect is earned and is not something that can or should be asked for. Contrary to what some people have been saying, I don't see anybody saying the game is completely balanced. The game can only be completely fair if all players are given the same options (like in mirror matchups), and this separation is what makes the game beautiful and unique. Every race is prone to weakness at certain points in time due to these discrepancies, and I don't think anybody disagrees that Terran is the rather unfavored race as of late. But instead of purely objectively looking at the situation, thedwf let his emotions get the better of him and worded everything as if Protoss or Zerg takes no skill while Terran has an infinitely harder time in every single aspect of the game. THAT is true disrespect to how much hard work Protoss or Zerg players put into their play; already in tourneys' Twitch chat no respect is ever given to any winner except Terran, and this kind of propaganda only promotes more hate in the SC2 scene. I'd say this kind of racial bias is killing the scene a lot more than people imagine. This author just made a lengthened version of dumb Twitch phrases such as "Protossed" or "Zerg hard race Kappa." He deserves criticism. It's hard to give a lot of respect to someone who's dividing the SC2 community with blatantly biased remarks, as if the community isn't divided enough already It's true that a lot of that article is kind of biased, wrong or stresses things that are not very significant while diminishing equivalent options of Terran. Hell, parts of them are outright insulting for P/Z players. But TheDwf is not noone. He has earned respect before (and earns more with that article from my side, given how detailed it is). And it is really much more than a lengthened version of dumb Twitch phrases. It gives in detail explanations for everything to a degree that outside of calling cherrypicking, you can't even attack the content without doing hours of research yourself before. | ||
|
ShoCkSC2
Germany340 Posts
I dont have a problem with people stating their opinion, but by being published on the frontpage of TL, this article sort of does it in an 'official' fashion. Thus Im worried a lot of people will use this article as yet another excuse to blame everything on 'op Protoss' all over again. | ||
|
Twine
France246 Posts
| ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12009 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:15 Picasso wrote: Effort put in has nothing to do with respect; respect is earned and is not something that can or should be asked for. Contrary to what some people have been saying, I don't see anybody saying the game is completely balanced. The game can only be completely fair if all players are given the same options (like in mirror matchups), and this separation is what makes the game beautiful and unique. Every race is prone to weakness at certain points in time due to these discrepancies, and I don't think anybody disagrees that Terran is the rather unfavored race as of late. But instead of purely objectively looking at the situation, thedwf let his emotions get the better of him and worded everything as if Protoss or Zerg takes no skill while Terran has an infinitely harder time in every single aspect of the game. THAT is true disrespect to how much hard work Protoss or Zerg players put into their play; already in tourneys' Twitch chat no respect is ever given to any winner except Terran, and this kind of propaganda only promotes more hate in the SC2 scene. I'd say this kind of racial bias is killing the scene a lot more than people imagine. This author just made a lengthened version of dumb Twitch phrases such as "Protossed" or "Zerg hard race Kappa." He deserves criticism. It's hard to give a lot of respect to someone who's dividing the SC2 community with blatantly biased remarks, as if the community isn't divided enough already This is an excellent post, thank you for posting it. | ||
|
ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:23 stuchiu wrote: If you're going to disagree or criticize the article, at least try to put in as much effort in as the author did. That's not how criticism works, but ok. | ||
|
Hider
Denmark9359 Posts
But I don't think your correct about the fact that the main reason for Blink Stalkers being dominant was due to the Mine-nerf. While it was clear that 1/1/1 openings became terrible, it is worth noting that bio openings were still very common prior to the Mine-nerf vs protoss (and still is today after +splash damage vs Shield). 2base Blink builds would still back then had had a really strong succes rate. Further, it is worth noting that after Blink all ins were popularized, bio players still had lots of trobule dealing with it. It just took a while for them to leanr proper bunker placement/how to place scv's and scout for the various stuff the protoss player could throw at them. The more likely reason for 2 base Blinks not being more common was IMO due to not enough players knowing about it. The build didn't really exist in WOL, and those was one that had to be discovered. | ||
|
Incognoto
France10239 Posts
- theDwf, you have just gone up in my esteem by a lot; it must have taken a lot of time to write that, especially since everything is backed up with VODs and logic. screw the haters - To the people with under 200 posts and calling it a "balance whine", screw you. it "shocks" you that this is featured? screw you. Someone took the time to write an editorial and TL decided that it was pertinent enough to feature. Anyone saying that this isn't a quality post is a biased dumbass. The arguments are there, they're real, they're oozing with logic and everything is backed up with evidence found in VODs. This article is hateful and a waste of time? screw you. This article is admittedly a fiery piece of work but it's not senseless hate, unlike all your shitty replies. - There's another kind of annoying dumbass, albeit they're not as annoying as the dumbasses mentioned above. It's the ones who will pull an obscure part of the article and start counter arguing that point. e.g. they'll discuss Terran micro vs Protoss micro and discredit the article because Protoss micro is deeper than just a-move. Which is true; Protoss micro obviously isn't just a-move. The point in the article was that Terran have a lot more work to do than Protoss to get equal returns. Which I think is quite true, but this is not something that can be objectively proven. So arguing about just that point is somewhat annoying to me. It's fine if an argument isn't 100% spot on when discussing something as difficult to judge as micro. - Yes, there's some subjectivity to the article. If you're going to focus on just that aspect while ignoring the rest of the arguments that have been fleshed out, don't. - "thedwf let his emotions get the better of him and worded everything as if Protoss or Zerg takes no skill while Terran has an infinitely harder time in every single aspect of the game." this is bullshit as well. Don't put words in the authors mouth. Even though it may have come off as "thedwf said Z and P require no skill" to your biased ears, what I heard is "T requires a bit more effort to get things done right compared to Z and P and this is one of the factors which is exacerbating the problem for T atm". Otherwise, related to the article: - Reading this article, I've decided that DK is incompetent. theDwf very clearly understands starcraft and how it works, DK with the kinds of changes he implements doesn't get it. The queen buff was one example, the widow mine nerf was another. It's like starcraft is a game of balance; give an edge to a certain race at one point and the entire balance can be skewed. e.g. queen buff. DK repeated this mistake apparently by going crazy with nerf-hammer on terran. terran does seem to have lost its ability to deal damage / pressure an opponent in the earliesh game. - On a very personal level, I kind of feel like the MSC core's photon overcharge is too strong. Protoss does indeed seem quite untouchable in the early-game because of it. It's kind of like the queen buff in that they can play just a >bit< greedier which leads to a small edge. A good P will use that small edge to get a bigger one. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:09 argonautdice wrote: I love how Thedwf writes Code B for the players who are actually in Code A for the 2014 seasons --> if you made it past the qualifiers you're in Code A. I really enjoyed the first half of the editorial tbh, but then it just descents more and more to balance whines. Lot's of cherry-picked examples, but I guess since it's an editorial you only need to present your side of the facts. Then why is this on the front page? Because all the "efforts" put into the post? Hitler took a lot of effort to write Mein Kampf. Eugenics research had a lot of "statistics" backing them. Now I'm in no way saying the two situation are comparable, but the logics is analogous. Edit: I support buffing T in some way 100% (e.g. removing friendly fire for widow mine), but this editorial is just meh. The logic may be analogous but you could've found ANY OTHER ANALOGY than one comparing this piece to Mein Kampf and Eugenics… Christ. You deliberately picked those analogies to cast this editorial in a bad light. Next time, go easy on the "HITLER!" And no they aren't in Code A because next season they have to qualify again. That means you are in Code B. | ||
|
argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:20 ZeromuS wrote: Not at all. I personally was the one to bring this to the SC2 staff and say it deserved some Front Page space. Why? Well, aside from the fact there was a lot of "effort" (which by the way very very few people put into their presence on TL), there is the fact that its nuanced. Sure, its a little whiny in parts. I agree, I don't like that part. The reason it isn't a TLStrat article is because it isn't objective enough to be one case and point. However, the effort put into it by a TL veteran who puts a LOT of time into helping other Terrans in the help me thread means that it is deserving of some special treatment. So, why didn't we edit out all the balance whine type portions? Well its simple, they can be there and its fine. Remember this thread? Lings of Liberty . This thread was the WoL version of this. Although Ver's piece was slightly more tongue in cheek than this one due to the fact that Ver's writing style is different. TheDwf is a very blunt person who wears his heart on his sleeve when it comes to Terran and it comes through in his approach to writing this article. Let's also consider that the post is nuanced. Its more than just a balance whine. There are strong statistics which bear some fruit to them, and while some stats may be used to be beneficial to his position and not 100% objective, no stat is ever 100% objective and it is always being used to prove the point the statistic provider wants. Always. The nuance comes in the fact that the analysis of the TheDwf takes Terran as a whole and applies a logic to understanding the current situation. It is highly unlikely that every Terran player in Korea just started playing worse. Is Terran super underpowered? Personally, I think no. But its hard to argue the following statement: Due to a series of tournament format, patch, and map pool changes coinciding with strategy (re: metagame) shifts ALL at very important times of the year with regards to tournaments (GSL qualis) the number of Korean Terrans represented at the highest levels of play has dropped quite a bit compared to year or so ago. That itself can't be argued. The way in which the above hypothesis is described as happening can be seen in this article. I agree with you, the general argument, and some of the examples. | ||
|
Disarmed
Austria721 Posts
Surely its opinionated, but i don't mind that.....in fact thats what makes it lively and cool to read. What i find amusing though, is that so many people focus on the rather biased tone of the article instead of writing it off as just the way the author likes to express his thoughts but completely fail to come up with any counter-evidence about the issue. this is an amazingly insightful read with tons of data backing it up, parallels & connections drawn and it shows a vast knowledge about the game. to dimiss this just because of its admittedly harsh tone is just disrespectful to the author. you surely have the right to not like it and disagree with it but ppl should rather STFU than screaming "TOXIC TOXIC".... | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
Even if you find parts whiney, you can't discount the solid empirical evidence and good points that are present in other parts. Taken as a whole this article bolsters and solidifies the case that Terran is underpowered right now. | ||
|
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
Very well I will clarify. "If you're going to disagree with or criticize the article, at least don't just post a single screen shot that in no way refutes or even challenges the claims made in the article itself. Aligulac ratings have never been and will never be a useful tool for closely examining balance, although it is an excellent resource" | ||
|
Picasso
Korea (South)52 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:22 Jer99 wrote: This isn't suppose to be an objective piece, though. This is an editorial from his perspective as a viewer and a player, and he's definitely got the credentials to post as a high level player. With how Terran has been doing he's pretty spot on with his points, albeit the tone is very subjective And, yes, thedwf has his freedom to express his opinions like anyone else. I just think it's terribly wrong that TL is putting this up in their front page as thedwf's whiny tone is what represents SC2 right now. There are plenty of Terrans that don't whine and there are plenty of Ps and Zs that recognize T might be at a disadvantage right now. This editorial being on the front page is more destructive than constructive | ||
|
argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:31 Darkhorse wrote: The logic may be analogous but you could've found ANY OTHER ANALOGY than one comparing this piece to Mein Kampf and Eugenics… Christ. You deliberately picked those analogies to cast this editorial in a bad light. Next time, go easy on the "HITLER!" And no they aren't in Code A because next season they have to qualify again. That means you are in Code B. Well the analogy reflected my opinion on the tone of this editorial. I couldn't think of another one at the time of posting. I guess it's more analogous to bad science, or political reporting. And so are you saying there is no Code A in 2014 then? Who's in Code A? The Ro32 Code S people? | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
First of all, TL Strategy pretty much sanctioned this piece as a well-written article with a lot of solid points to provoke conversation. TheDwf brought it to us to proofread and look through, and for the most part, although we didn't all agree on all the points, we found it to be a thought-provoking read and expected it to incite real conversation on the actual state of Terran currently. As far as I know, I was the person who disagreed most with this article. There are definitely some solid points contained in here, especially in the first few paragraphs that get into patches and why Terran play has slowly declined in HotS and explaining the "map paradox" associated with blink all-ins and such; HOWEVER, as I went on to read the following sections, which address all of the problems with TvZ and TvP in great detail, I soon started to feel like I was drowning in balance whine material. It was all stuff I had heard before -- plenty of times. Granted, it was incredibly well put, well sourced, and explained these overly discussed "Terran problems" in a way that made sense and made a solid point. But what did it really add to the article? Upon reflection, I realize what the point of this article is. Even though TheDwf doesn't really tie it together all that well, he's essentially saying: Terran's early and mid game has been constantly nerfed since the beginning of HotS, and as a result, have less and less momentum going into the mid and late game. Without any ability to do any real pressure early on, Terran has no ability to even threaten their opponent's greed, and cannot get into the later stages of the game with any real advantage. This is a problem because it limits Terran's options and forces them to walk a fine line between greed and safety while also forcing them to have to play to the late game in which they are not favored against the other races (as per asymmetrical balance). When reading it like that, this article makes perfect sense, and I begin to question where Blizzard ACTUALLY needs to start with balancing. In my opinion, we've seen all too often in the past that giving Terrans early options tends to result in Terran dominance; would it make more sense to start with the late game and giving Terrans an upgraded late game first? Buffing the Terran early game will do nothing more than boost Terrans back into the spotlight followed by a direct nerf. However, something like reverting the ghost snipe nerf completely changes how powerful late game Terran is without hugely shifting the playing field. These are just ideas. There could be much better ones. Instead of arguing over whether this article is a balance whine or a much needed post, let's actually talk about the points and come up with some suggestions and solutions on how to fix what is obviously a problem (I don't think anyone here can REALLY say Terran doesn't have some kind of disadvantage and still be taken seriously as a person). | ||
|
Superbanana
2369 Posts
1 - Foreigner zergs are strong, they get good results in foreigner tournaments and that boosts zerg winrates. 2 - Korean terrans with very high rates are playing in the foreign scene: Taeja, ForGG, Jjakji, MMA and Polt. The consequence is that terran results in proleague and GSL come from lower rated terrans with the exceptions of INnoVation (he is a monster). I conclude that GSL results are hightly influenced by the fact that the strongest terrans are more spread apart between servers than other races, and that the skill gap between koreans and foreigners is smaller for zerg. Protoss is supposed to do well in GSL. Edit: SC2John i think its a great idea to buff terran late game IF the winrates do not improve within the next months (lets see how it stabilizes after hellbat buff and widow mine shield damage). I do think the late game has always been the issue for terran, no idea why blizz adressed early/mid game units... | ||
|
Makro
France16890 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:31 Darkhorse wrote: The logic may be analogous but you could've found ANY OTHER ANALOGY than one comparing this piece to Mein Kampf and Eugenics… Christ. You deliberately picked those analogies to cast this editorial in a bad light. Next time, go easy on the "HITLER!" And no they aren't in Code A because next season they have to qualify again. That means you are in Code B. godwin point easily reached | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:34 Picasso wrote: And, yes, thedwf has his freedom to express his opinions like anyone else. I just think it's terribly wrong that TL is putting this up in their front page as thedwf's whiny tone is what represents SC2 right now. There are plenty of Terrans that don't whine and there are plenty of Ps and Zs that recognize T might be at a disadvantage right now. This editorial being on the front page is more destructive than constructive Saying the article has a whiney tone when taken as a whole is, sorry to say, not an intelligent statement. And goes right along with your other exaggerations such as "this is killing the scene" LOL. Just re-read the first 10 or so paragraphs, for example. It's articulate and uses evidence to support the reasoning. | ||
| ||
