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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:50 Hider wrote: I think this is very deceiving as well. You must be careful about not nitpicking all the "right" games to support your argument. I remember that game as well, simply becasue it was one of the only series that featured dropplay the high levels. Most WOL TvP's were really passive in midgame. Well, but that was due to Protoss investing a lot into defense against drops with lots of wellplaced stalkers. Something that wasn't sufficient against boostervacs in HotS. You'd invest into defense and still lose something to drops, costing you double. So it's not like droppressure didn't cost the Protoss something. He just didn't receive damage if he prepared well enough to deter the Terran from droping. Now the Protoss can defend (must defend, due to afterburners?) with PO. | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Think any Korean pro Terran starts each practice thinking 'oh what's the point, I'll lose in tourneys anyway cuz of Z OP and P OP' ? I thought this was all Taeja did? | ||
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alexander670
Australia14 Posts
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
Showoff your reading skillz a bit. an editorial is not objective, however the author is basing his analysis on factual evidence. I am also really sad that some people are flaming a guy whos just trying to get us a better favorite game  | ||
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ESC FeaR
10 Posts
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Luolis
Finland7202 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: The biggest whine thread I have ever readed. So much true facts in op but also horrible shit lies. I try later to answer those Nope. Well written thread about the problems of sc2. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:57 ESC FeaR wrote: to the writer i´m curious which league you are ... i dont want to flame you but its always the same that players who aren´t gm or close to it (even they shouldnt ) make for example guides or balance "whines" without telling us which league they play.Im just curious how good you are to comment those games and tell us whats wrong with the balance! Downfall is GM | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24604 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:34 SC2John wrote: I'll go ahead and give my input. First of all, TL Strategy pretty much sanctioned this piece as a well-written article with a lot of solid points to provoke conversation. TheDwf brought it to us to proofread and look through, and for the most part, although we didn't all agree on all the points, we found it to be a thought-provoking read and expected it to incite real conversation on the actual state of Terran currently. As far as I know, I was the person who disagreed most with this article. There are definitely some solid points contained in here, especially in the first few paragraphs that get into patches and why Terran play has slowly declined in HotS and explaining the "map paradox" associated with blink all-ins and such; HOWEVER, as I went on to read the following sections, which address all of the problems with TvZ and TvP in great detail, I soon started to feel like I was drowning in balance whine material. It was all stuff I had heard before -- plenty of times. Granted, it was incredibly well put, well sourced, and explained these overly discussed "Terran problems" in a way that made sense and made a solid point. But what did it really add to the article? Upon reflection, I realize what the point of this article is. Even though TheDwf doesn't really tie it together all that well, he's essentially saying: Terran's early and mid game has been constantly nerfed since the beginning of HotS, and as a result, have less and less momentum going into the mid and late game. Without any ability to do any real pressure early on, Terran has no ability to even threaten their opponent's greed, and cannot get into the later stages of the game with any real advantage. This is a problem because it limits Terran's options and forces them to walk a fine line between greed and safety while also forcing them to have to play to the late game in which they are not favored against the other races (as per asymmetrical balance). When reading it like that, this article makes perfect sense, and I begin to question where Blizzard ACTUALLY needs to start with balancing. In my opinion, we've seen all too often in the past that giving Terrans early options tends to result in Terran dominance; would it make more sense to start with the late game and giving Terrans an upgraded late game first? Buffing the Terran early game will do nothing more than boost Terrans back into the spotlight followed by a direct nerf. However, something like reverting the ghost snipe nerf completely changes how powerful late game Terran is without hugely shifting the playing field. These are just ideas. There could be much better ones. Instead of arguing over whether this article is a balance whine or a much needed post, let's actually talk about the points and come up with some suggestions and solutions on how to fix what is obviously a problem (I don't think anyone here can REALLY say Terran doesn't have some kind of disadvantage and still be taken seriously as a person). Maybe I need to read it once or twice more to get all the nuances. I think you're quite right and I think it's an interesting thing to look for. However, why do you feel that it is necessarily bad for Terran to get a stronger early game? I think it might make the game more reasonable in general if a stronger early game results in better mid and late games, rather than just buff the late game. You say that there is an inevitable nerf coming, but... is that necessarily so? I doubt it. Moreover, I think thedwf does have a few other points in his post. One of these being that Terran is designed differently than the other races and that this necessitates Terran players to be just straight-up better. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7202 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:57 ESC FeaR wrote: to the writer i´m curious which league you are ... i dont want to flame you but its always the same that players who aren´t gm or close to it (even they shouldnt ) make for example guides or balance "whines" without telling us which league they play.Im just curious how good you are to comment those games and tell us whats wrong with the balance! HEs a grandmaster terran. | ||
Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
Coincidence that he's the best in the world? | ||
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EiBmoZ
Canada235 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Nezgar
Germany535 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:34 Picasso wrote: And, yes, thedwf has his freedom to express his opinions like anyone else. I just think it's terribly wrong that TL is putting this up in their front page as thedwf's whiny tone is what represents SC2 right now. There are plenty of Terrans that don't whine and there are plenty of Ps and Zs that recognize T might be at a disadvantage right now. This editorial being on the front page is more destructive than constructive I think this is what the current discussion all comes down to. It cannot be denied that thedwf put a lot of effort into his article and neither can it be denied that Terrans, especially in korea, are struggling right now. The Problem most people seem to have is the disrespect from his part for the other races, the factually not completely correct statements and the overly whiny undertone throughout the article. On top of that the article is featured on this site which grants it some form of credibility. I would be perfectly fine if this was just a regular post in the balance discussion subforum. I would be perfectly fine if the whole article would be more light-hearted and had a more tongue-in-cheek approach to the situation. I would be perfectly fine if it were completely objective and would consider the roles of the other races more. Alas, this is not the case though. It is featured, it is dead serious and very subjective. It will give fuel to even more balance whines and it might even act as a great example for other people to mask their crap with shiny statistics and flashy videos. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles. | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:57 ESC FeaR wrote: to the writer i´m curious which league you are ... i dont want to flame you but its always the same that players who aren´t gm or close to it (even they shouldnt ) make for example guides or balance "whines" without telling us which league they play.Im just curious how good you are to comment those games and tell us whats wrong with the balance! Look up "Downfall" which is his ID. He is an EU GM Terran. | ||
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Picasso
Korea (South)52 Posts
Simply attaining GM on NA or EU doesn't mean anything if you're not, say, top 16 or something. Any serious pseudo-high-level player knows this. Even I'm a GM, but GM isn't the awe-inspiring proof of skill or understanding of the game as it is portrayed as. If someone like qxc who's actually good at the game wrote it I'd be more inclined to believe the things said here | ||
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Milantes
Germany22 Posts
Hopefully Blizzard takes a look at this. | ||
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myRZeth
Germany1047 Posts
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:57 Luolis wrote: Nope. Well written thread about the problems of sc2. To what did you answer to? | ||
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