EPTOn June 29 2014 23:58 Nebuchad wrote:
Let's not pretend it's not already happening please..
Let's not pretend it's not already happening please..
Trust me, it will be worse. I am not pretending anything. please.
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
Trust me, it will be worse. I am not pretending anything. please. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
"The Elephant in the Room... II" | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On June 29 2014 23:46 MHT wrote: Well on plus-side the games much easier to balance now with just 2 races, maybe they need to go back to their roots and relearn how to balance things before trying with 3 races again. With 2 races in the game blizzard actually managed to have the most imbalances, 4 races had a few. 3 were pretty good in BW, mostly because they gave each race units and skills that only worked against one race, that way they actually never had the need watch out if one unit would mess up another matchup. In Sc2 we will never know, because the beta and the crying ruined any sort of balance plan from the start, so they started their balance changes with people a-moving into 30 bunched up siege tanks on scrap station. It basically started the descend into having to balance the game around the skill of the players that is constantly changing. Blizzard never had a chance. But yeah the beta started with 2 armor roaches that didn't even had to be issued a command to win the game. But hey we moved from paying for your quality assurance, to getting it for free, over to people pay to be your quality assurance. So I am glad Blizzard didn't move that far (well they test their payment system in their f2p titles  ) | ||
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Frankenberry
Denmark302 Posts
Luckily the staff of TL seems to agree since they put this on the front page. To disregard the content of the original post as crap or insignificant, is to me just as opinionated as the original post it self is. With that being said I am not quite sure thing are not moving in the right direction. In the last episode of inside the game Incontrol and DJWheat said that the balance was in a pretty good state, but the metagame was maybe a bit stale. Also in this poll + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/poll/index.php?poll_id=610 Yes the post is very clearly Terran biased and in some cases also pick its data to prove a point (for instance claiming that Terran does not trade efficiently against zerg on 3/3 vs. 2/2 with 1 game between Dream and Scarlett to prove it). When picking data like that in my opinion those single arguments should be disregarded, but the overall content of the thread has better empiric evidence behind it. Instead of disregarding it purely because it is biased, you should address the arguments with counterarguments. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1350 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:00 Leviance wrote: I still can't believe how TL features what is against their very own general rules. True! But I guess the graphs don´t lie... | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
 Just kidding, you make valid arguments about his case. Great work, you should get TL points. | ||
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Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
![[image loading]](http://s14.directupload.net/images/140629/nbs6z7qz.jpg) | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
What is the purpose of this? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:07 Leviance wrote: All of those Terrans played the majority of their recent games against foreigners. the best Korean vs Korean players in that list are herO and sOs. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2716 Posts
I really enjoyed the first half of the editorial tbh, but then it just descents more and more to balance whines. Lot's of cherry-picked examples, but I guess since it's an editorial you only need to present your side of the facts. Then why is this on the front page? Because all the "efforts" put into the post? Hitler took a lot of effort to write Mein Kampf. Eugenics research had a lot of "statistics" backing them. Now I'm in no way saying the two situation are comparable, but the logics is analogous. Edit: I support buffing T in some way 100% (e.g. removing friendly fire for widow mine), but this editorial is just meh. | ||
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
I agree with a good amount of what you say but not to the extent of it or how you describe it, though. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
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robson1
3632 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:07 Leviance wrote: How does anyone not get how aligulacs rating's are not actually a valid source for determining balance. The ratings get highly inflated by koreans beating up on foreigners abroad. And Terran has the most guys who do this right now (MMA, Bomber, Taeja, Polt, JJakji, ForGG, to a lesser degree Yoda.... and whoops those are the guys who show up in the ranking, innovation is the only one who consistently plays on a high Korean level, and even his ranking is inflated by killing foreigners) while the best Z and Ps are generally on Kespa Teams (apart from MC San, Hyun and JD and to a lesser degree First and Liquid_HerO) | ||
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Picasso
Korea (South)52 Posts
On June 29 2014 23:59 wo1fwood wrote: Apparently a lot of people read this very differently than I did... I see the frustration towards the situation, but how people can call what thedwf just wrote utter schlock is rather disrespectful to the effort put in. Please people, if you have criticisms please refrain from knee jerk reactions and respect the author, even if you disagree. Effort put in has nothing to do with respect; respect is earned and is not something that can or should be asked for. Contrary to what some people have been saying, I don't see anybody saying the game is completely balanced. The game can only be completely fair if all players are given the same options (like in mirror matchups), and this separation is what makes the game beautiful and unique. Every race is prone to weakness at certain points in time due to these discrepancies, and I don't think anybody disagrees that Terran is the rather unfavored race as of late. But instead of purely objectively looking at the situation, thedwf let his emotions get the better of him and worded everything as if Protoss or Zerg takes no skill while Terran has an infinitely harder time in every single aspect of the game. THAT is true disrespect to how much hard work Protoss or Zerg players put into their play; already in tourneys' Twitch chat no respect is ever given to any winner except Terran, and this kind of propaganda only promotes more hate in the SC2 scene. I'd say this kind of racial bias is killing the scene a lot more than people imagine. This author just made a lengthened version of dumb Twitch phrases such as "Protossed" or "Zerg hard race Kappa." He deserves criticism. It's hard to give a lot of respect to someone who's dividing the SC2 community with blatantly biased remarks, as if the community isn't divided enough already | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
As said in the article, Terrans were already under-performing in late WOL. And right now, they're beyond under-performing. They're currently ALL sucking hardcore, with the exception of Maru. And Maru is not doing that great outside of GSL (see his proleague results). Taeja and Polt are not under-performing because they're so used to foreign tournaments and not meeting enough good Z & P. The KR they beat are MC, Hero, and Jaedong... in other words, ethnical Koreans but non good KR proleague/GSL players. One good example of this, watch out what happened at MLG Analheim last week. 1 proleague code A/S caliber Protoss (Trap) qualified and went to this tournament, he 4-0ed Polt in the final and won the whole thing. No doubt that if the best Z&P such as Soo, Soulkey, Zest, Classic, Byul, were systematically brought or offered a chance to qualify to foreign tournaments, instead of public idols such as MC/Hero/Jaedong... Taeja and Polt would never win a premier league tournament. They might pull a Maru from time to time but they would end up getting their ass kicked in the later stages. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:09 argonautdice wrote: I love how Thedwf writes Code B for the players who are actually in Code A for the 2014 seasons --> if you made it past the qualifiers you're in Code A. I really enjoyed the first half of the editorial tbh, but then it just descents more and more to balance whines. Lot's of cherry-picked examples, but I guess since it's an editorial you only need to present your side of the facts. Then why is this on the front page? Because all the "efforts" put into the post? Hitler took a lot of effort to write Mein Kampf. Eugenics research had a lot of "statistics" backing them. Now I'm in no way saying the two situation are comparable, but the logics in analogous. Not at all. I personally was the one to bring this to the SC2 staff and say it deserved some Front Page space. Why? Well, aside from the fact there was a lot of "effort" (which by the way very very few people put into their presence on TL), there is the fact that its nuanced. Sure, its a little whiny in parts. I agree, I don't like that part. The reason it isn't a TLStrat article is because it isn't objective enough to be one case and point. However, the effort put into it by a TL veteran who puts a LOT of time into helping other Terrans in the help me thread means that it is deserving of some special treatment. So, why didn't we edit out all the balance whine type portions? Well its simple, they can be there and its fine. Remember this thread? Lings of Liberty . This thread was the WoL version of this. Although Ver's piece was slightly more tongue in cheek than this one due to the fact that Ver's writing style is different. TheDwf is a very blunt person who wears his heart on his sleeve when it comes to Terran and it comes through in his approach to writing this article. Let's also consider that the post is nuanced. Its more than just a balance whine. There are strong statistics which bear some fruit to them, and while some stats may be used to be beneficial to his position and not 100% objective, no stat is ever 100% objective and it is always being used to prove the point the statistic provider wants. Always. The nuance comes in the fact that the analysis of the TheDwf takes Terran as a whole and applies a logic to understanding the current situation. It is highly unlikely that every Terran player in Korea just started playing worse. Is Terran super underpowered? Personally, I think no. But its hard to argue the following statement: Due to a series of tournament format, patch, and map pool changes coinciding with strategy (re: metagame) shifts ALL at very important times of the year with regards to tournaments (GSL qualis) the number of Korean Terrans represented at the highest levels of play has dropped quite a bit compared to year or so ago. That itself can't be argued. The way in which the above hypothesis is described as happening can be seen in this article. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2716 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:17 SiroKO wrote: And Maru is not doing that great outside of GSL (see his proleague results). mfw ranked 2 in proleague is considered bad. | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
The Dead Terrain in the Room. | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:15 Picasso wrote: Effort put in has nothing to do with respect; respect is earned and is not something that can or should be asked for. Contrary to what some people have been saying, I don't see anybody saying the game is completely balanced. The game can only be completely fair if all players are given the same options (like in mirror matchups), and this separation is what makes the game beautiful and unique. Every race is prone to weakness at certain points in time due to these discrepancies, and I don't think anybody disagrees that Terran is the rather unfavored race as of late. But instead of purely objectively looking at the situation, thedwf let his emotions get the better of him and worded everything as if Protoss or Zerg takes no skill while Terran has an infinitely harder time in every single aspect of the game. THAT is true disrespect to how much hard work Protoss or Zerg players put into their play; already in tourneys' Twitch chat no respect is ever given to any winner except Terran, and this kind of propaganda only promotes more hate in the SC2 scene. I'd say this kind of racial bias is killing the scene a lot more than people imagine. This author just made a lengthened version of dumb Twitch phrases such as "Protossed" or "Zerg hard race Kappa." He deserves criticism. It's hard to give a lot of respect to someone who's dividing the SC2 community with blatantly biased remarks, as if the community isn't divided enough already You make an excellent point. Zerg and Protoss players DO work very hard to reach the achievements they do. On the other hand, what does that say about the many Terran players who doubtless work just as hard but achieve far less in terms of results? You can't have the cake and eat it, too. If we agree that pro players are all working just as hard to achieve success, then at the current point in time, it seems as though the efforts are MORE rewarded for Protoss and Zerg players than Terran players. Now, whether you want to call that 'easier' is up to you. But there seems to be very little doubt that there is some kind of discrepancy in terms of effort:payout regarding the races in SC2 in the current metagame. I'm completely open to a new Bisu coming along and rewriting the entire meta by themselves and flipping that curve on its head, but you can't deny the current situation. | ||
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Jer99
Canada8157 Posts
On June 30 2014 00:15 Picasso wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 29 2014 23:59 wo1fwood wrote: Apparently a lot of people read this very differently than I did... I see the frustration towards the situation, but how people can call what thedwf just wrote utter schlock is rather disrespectful to the effort put in. Please people, if you have criticisms please refrain from knee jerk reactions and respect the author, even if you disagree. Effort put in has nothing to do with respect; respect is earned and is not something that can or should be asked for. Contrary to what some people have been saying, I don't see anybody saying the game is completely balanced. The game can only be completely fair if all players are given the same options (like in mirror matchups), and this separation is what makes the game beautiful and unique. Every race is prone to weakness at certain points in time due to these discrepancies, and I don't think anybody disagrees that Terran is the rather unfavored race as of late. But instead of purely objectively looking at the situation, thedwf let his emotions get the better of him and worded everything as if Protoss or Zerg takes no skill while Terran has an infinitely harder time in every single aspect of the game. THAT is true disrespect to how much hard work Protoss or Zerg players put into their play; already in tourneys' Twitch chat no respect is ever given to any winner except Terran, and this kind of propaganda only promotes more hate in the SC2 scene. I'd say this kind of racial bias is killing the scene a lot more than people imagine. This author just made a lengthened version of dumb Twitch phrases such as "Protossed" or "Zerg hard race Kappa." He deserves criticism. It's hard to give a lot of respect to someone who's dividing the SC2 community with blatantly biased remarks, as if the community isn't divided enough already This isn't suppose to be an objective piece, though. This is an editorial from his perspective as a viewer and a player, and he's definitely got the credentials to post as a high level player. With how Terran has been doing he's pretty spot on with his points, albeit the tone is very subjective | ||
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