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Please clean up the quality of your posting. This thread has definitely taken a turn for the worse. |
On June 16 2014 22:20 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 20:51 MagnuMizer wrote:
Really? You are joking me.... He got kicked from a team for saying "go beg for more money sick boy ^^" not even a curse word was used.. it was clearly just an emotional response to losing the game... I then read that the dude cried when he got kicked?.. doesn't seem like an asshole to me, just very emotional...
Then later, I learn that Ruff has a mental disability?.... i just lost all respect for everyone here backing lvD... i feel bad for you Ruff.. I didn't know who you were before this, but I'm sorry that the sc2 community breeds hate like this, no wonder some of it can rub off on you... Hope you get better and get some rebound on another team! You didn't deserve to be treated like this! I don't feel sorry for Ruff at all really, he acted like a douche and got punished. The main reason I do not feel sorry for him though is it gives him an opportunity to get some perspective on things. Playing a mediocre RTS for some crappy NA team is not worth the energy or time. It should be the shove/push that some people need to do something more productive with their time.
So yeah, go to a bar and say to someone "I hope you get cancer". You'll probably get a beating, be kicked out of that bar, but that doesn't mean you cannot go to another bar and have fun. Ruff will always have the stigma of "what a fucktard" now, just as firecake has. Having a bad reputation in such a small scene (which still means roughly 10k people that do remember, maybe more?) sucks. That's what a sentence costs you. So, "moral high ground" my ass - everyone who's judging the shit out of Ruff is not on that moral high ground (including me, I guess). I read through the TB banter, and this is pretty much the definition of "unnecessary". Shots were fired, things were dealt with, so don't make this bigger as it is.
TL;DR
it's a shame to kick someone with crutches, yes. But in teh interwebz, people are going to the pillory way too fast. So leave those guys alone now, I guess Minigun and Ruff both have issues to deal with. No need to discuss here anymore.
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On June 16 2014 12:59 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:30 knOxStarcraft wrote:
Also I don't understand how it's so wrong to troll them. If they're going to be dicks then they're going to get treated accordingly. Let's say there's a guy who losers his temper and says something inappropriate every 1 in 100 times he loses a game. He plays 30 games a day, loses 15 of them, so he says something bad about once a week. Now, depending on how people react and what kind of environment he's in, that rate can either go up or go down. There's no doubt in my mind that when people respond to venom with venom, that rate goes up. And it's not only that, but there are people who very clearly recognize a known rager and try to get them to rage just to laugh at their rage (and so their viewers can laugh too). In other words, there are people who purposely try to increase that rate. Let that influence happen over several years to an impressionable young kid, and you turn him into a guy who has a nasty comment at the end of nearly every loss. Personally I block almost every rager I encounter while streaming. SC2 practice is not the time to try to help a guy with a rage problem, but I do my best to not feed his rage. I play the best I can to win the game, which is the most respectful thing I can do, and I simply say gg and leave if I've lost. I think these simple policies would go a long way toward improving the community if everyone who was capable of doing them actually did them. I haven't been doing this for long, but I've done it pretty consistently for a little while now and I'm gonna keep doing it for as long as I can. There are some hopeless cases but there are also always some people who could either get worse or get better. It is absolutely ignorant to think you don't have some influence over the people you interact with and you ought to take responsibility for that influence. And with regard to the hopeless cases, I definitely think there's something immoral about abusing them just because they're incapable of contributing anything positive. If you have to cut them off then just cut them off, but don't ever abuse them. It's not like the abuse is punishment in hopes of rehabilitation... it's just eye for an eye bullshit. Or if you can't help it, and it's your own weakness that you can't help but get revenge on people who have wronged you, then at least admit it's a weakness and don't act like you're righteous.
I find so much wisdom in this post.
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Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness.
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United States23455 Posts
On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness.
I doubt Esports teams (especially the smaller US based teams) would have money to do that. Medical bills are incredibly expensive.
While I hope that at some point Esports teams will have the means to provide their players with health insurance, I don't think it is feasible right now.
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Most Esports teams are smaller than most start up businesses, there is no way they can provide health care. And the US has a bunch of health care options. But 90% of teams cannot afford to provide them and likely never will.
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ridiculing a person who is begging for money is perfectly acceptable to me
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United States23455 Posts
On June 16 2014 23:47 PrideNeverDie wrote:
ridiculing a person who is begging for money is perfectly acceptable to me
Interesting. You lack any and all empathy for anyone asking for help but I guess that opinion is valid.
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On June 16 2014 23:47 PrideNeverDie wrote:
ridiculing a person who is begging for money is perfectly acceptable to me
These kids who disapprove of cancer victims asking for charity or SC2 players down on their luck asking for money to attend events. Clearly none of them every watched Bambi.
Also, when would it be ok to mock a homeless person begging for money? Whe would we not think that the person doing that was a heartless asshole?
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On June 16 2014 23:47 PrideNeverDie wrote:
ridiculing a person who is begging for money is perfectly acceptable to me
Let's hope you or a member of your family never find themselves 10s of thousands of dollars in debt because of an illness then shall we? I'm pretty sure Minigun never asked to go through that terrible ordeal in hospital that put him in that situation and actually stopped him doing his job and thus not getting any money for it. Nor did he ask a fan to set up a fundraiser for his medical bills.
The lack of empathy from some people in this thread sickens me, it really does.
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On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness.
Would you sign a person like Minigun with a known illness if you would be forced to pay his medical bills?
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On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness.
Most privately owned small businesses cannot afford to provide their employees with healthcare, so I doubt that any but the biggest NA teams would be capable of providing that benefit. It's expensive enough getting players to and from events and paying a salary.
As for RuFF, I generally agree with the vitriol. It is not hard to not say stupid shit like this when you are mad. There are dozens of other ways to rage in SC2 that don't involve making fun of someone for having a chronic illness. All he had to do was bitch about Protoss and no one would be batting an eye at the whole thing. But no, he chose to go this route because he knew it would be the most hurtful. There is premeditation inherent in that that doesn't just make everything go away with an apology or saying "Just kidding!"
I'm all for the pitchforking in cases like this because our society could do with a lot less people saying stupid hurtful shit just because they are mad.
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On June 17 2014 00:15 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness. Would you sign a person like Minigun with a known illness if you would be forced to pay his medical bills?
That's how medical insurance works. Insurance companies make money from people who doesn't go to the doctor regularly and it compensates with the ones go sick as the last ones are actually in a minimum percentage compared to the number of insurance members.
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On June 17 2014 00:22 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness. I'm all for the pitchforking in cases like this because our society could do with a lot less people saying stupid hurtful shit just because they are mad.
He was punished, and apologized. Pitchforking just seems like bullying. He paid a stiff price for what he said, which was obviously brought on by their past relationship on ladder, etc. He doesn't give excuses and accepted his firing/removal from the team. He obviously wanted to hurt miniguns feelings, and minigun certainly returned the favor with his tweet.
What else do you want? He hasn't really won anything in SC2, why do we need to spend 27 pages bashing the guy for an unflattering moment? I guess some enjoy to vent personal frustration when they notice something that strikes a personal chord, but I wish that forgiveness and maturity were a more prevailing theme.
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On June 16 2014 22:35 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 22:20 Swift118 wrote:On June 16 2014 20:51 MagnuMizer wrote:
Really? You are joking me.... He got kicked from a team for saying "go beg for more money sick boy ^^" not even a curse word was used.. it was clearly just an emotional response to losing the game... I then read that the dude cried when he got kicked?.. doesn't seem like an asshole to me, just very emotional...
Then later, I learn that Ruff has a mental disability?.... i just lost all respect for everyone here backing lvD... i feel bad for you Ruff.. I didn't know who you were before this, but I'm sorry that the sc2 community breeds hate like this, no wonder some of it can rub off on you... Hope you get better and get some rebound on another team! You didn't deserve to be treated like this! I don't feel sorry for Ruff at all really, he acted like a douche and got punished. The main reason I do not feel sorry for him though is it gives him an opportunity to get some perspective on things. Playing a mediocre RTS for some crappy NA team is not worth the energy or time. It should be the shove/push that some people need to do something more productive with their time. So yeah, go to a bar and say to someone "I hope you get cancer". You'll probably get a beating, be kicked out of that bar, but that doesn't mean you cannot go to another bar and have fun. Ruff will always have the stigma of "what a fucktard" now, just as firecake has. Having a bad reputation in such a small scene (which still means roughly 10k people that do remember, maybe more?) sucks. That's what a sentence costs you. So, "moral high ground" my ass - everyone who's judging the shit out of Ruff is not on that moral high ground (including me, I guess). I read through the TB banter, and this is pretty much the definition of "unnecessary". Shots were fired, things were dealt with, so don't make this bigger as it is. TL;DR it's a shame to kick someone with crutches, yes. But in teh interwebz, people are going to the pillory way too fast. So leave those guys alone now, I guess Minigun and Ruff both have issues to deal with. No need to discuss here anymore.
As someone who is (somewhat) known in the competitive community he should have known better. Your analogy doesn't work because a public figure could not trash himself in a bar and go unnoticed.
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On June 17 2014 00:26 SirLanzealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:15 Zocat wrote:On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness. Would you sign a person like Minigun with a known illness if you would be forced to pay his medical bills? That's how medical insurance works. Insurance companies make money from people who doesn't go to the doctor regularly and it compensates with the ones go sick as the last ones are actually in a minimum percentage compared to the number of insurance members.
Yes, and if you have a known disease and go to a new insurance you are "allowed" to pay more.
And if you are the manager of an eSports team, you will not sign a person which has the high chance of requiring tens of thousands of dollars. Since that is such a large slice in your budget that you can simply not afford it. Or: it's better business to invest in other players, which don't suffer from such an illness. The risk:reward ratio is just skewed against Minigun (if eSport teams were forced to pay medical bills).
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On June 17 2014 00:43 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:26 SirLanzealot wrote:On June 17 2014 00:15 Zocat wrote:On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness. Would you sign a person like Minigun with a known illness if you would be forced to pay his medical bills? That's how medical insurance works. Insurance companies make money from people who doesn't go to the doctor regularly and it compensates with the ones go sick as the last ones are actually in a minimum percentage compared to the number of insurance members. Yes, and if you have a known disease and go to a new insurance you are "allowed" to pay more. And if you are the manager of an eSports team, you will not sign a person which has the high chance of requiring tens of thousands of dollars. Since that is such a large slice in your budget that you can simply not afford it. Or: it's better business to invest in other players, which don't suffer from such an illness. The risk:reward ratio is just skewed against Minigun (if eSport teams were forced to pay medical bills).
They dont havwe to pay the bills, just provide medical insurance. Like most comapnies in the US do. Some of the tops teams probably are approaching the size at which by US law they HAVE to provide health insurance. I can imagine that if TL wanted to they could offer their players health insurance, even if that meant paying them slightly less. But these smaller teams probably can't afford it, many dont pay their players a living wage.
I'm sure if a member of TLpro did get sick, TL would help with medical bills, Nazgul is a nice guy.
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On June 17 2014 01:02 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:43 Zocat wrote:On June 17 2014 00:26 SirLanzealot wrote:On June 17 2014 00:15 Zocat wrote:On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness. Would you sign a person like Minigun with a known illness if you would be forced to pay his medical bills? That's how medical insurance works. Insurance companies make money from people who doesn't go to the doctor regularly and it compensates with the ones go sick as the last ones are actually in a minimum percentage compared to the number of insurance members. Yes, and if you have a known disease and go to a new insurance you are "allowed" to pay more. And if you are the manager of an eSports team, you will not sign a person which has the high chance of requiring tens of thousands of dollars. Since that is such a large slice in your budget that you can simply not afford it. Or: it's better business to invest in other players, which don't suffer from such an illness. The risk:reward ratio is just skewed against Minigun (if eSport teams were forced to pay medical bills). They dont havwe to pay the bills, just provide medical insurance. Like most comapnies in the US do. Some of the tops teams probably are approaching the size at which by US law they HAVE to provide health insurance. I can imagine that if TL wanted to they could offer their players health insurance, even if that meant paying them slightly less. But these smaller teams probably can't afford it, many dont pay their players a living wage.
Ok, as my family owns a small buisness, I will tell you that providing health insurance is super expensive and not viable for most Esport teams. It would likely cost more than the most players monthly salary. There is a reason every job does not provide health insurance and it's the price.
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On June 17 2014 01:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 01:02 emythrel wrote:On June 17 2014 00:43 Zocat wrote:On June 17 2014 00:26 SirLanzealot wrote:On June 17 2014 00:15 Zocat wrote:On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness. Would you sign a person like Minigun with a known illness if you would be forced to pay his medical bills? That's how medical insurance works. Insurance companies make money from people who doesn't go to the doctor regularly and it compensates with the ones go sick as the last ones are actually in a minimum percentage compared to the number of insurance members. Yes, and if you have a known disease and go to a new insurance you are "allowed" to pay more. And if you are the manager of an eSports team, you will not sign a person which has the high chance of requiring tens of thousands of dollars. Since that is such a large slice in your budget that you can simply not afford it. Or: it's better business to invest in other players, which don't suffer from such an illness. The risk:reward ratio is just skewed against Minigun (if eSport teams were forced to pay medical bills). They dont havwe to pay the bills, just provide medical insurance. Like most comapnies in the US do. Some of the tops teams probably are approaching the size at which by US law they HAVE to provide health insurance. I can imagine that if TL wanted to they could offer their players health insurance, even if that meant paying them slightly less. But these smaller teams probably can't afford it, many dont pay their players a living wage. Ok, as my family owns a small buisness, I will tell you that providing health insurance is super expensive and not viable for most Esport teams. It would likely cost more than the most players monthly salary. There is a reason every job does not provide health insurance and it's the price.
Thats pretty much what I just said.....
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On June 16 2014 15:30 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 15:28 ninazerg wrote:On June 16 2014 15:27 Joedaddy wrote:On June 16 2014 15:20 dsousa wrote:On June 16 2014 15:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:Poll: Is there a day in which TB does not kill ESPORTS?No (42) 62% Yes (26) 38% 68 total votes Your vote: Is there a day in which TB does not kill ESPORTS? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
I'm giving you some shit, but you are the greatest thing about SC2. Hanging with the homies!!!! <3 You know what they say, with great power comes great responsibility. So, I love you, but I think you may have dropped the hammer too hard on Ruff. He's just some village idiot who got in the way of the TB train. I think there are a great many e-sports personalities, players and managers alike, who are prone to running off at the mouth when their tempers get the best of them. TB has had plenty of his own episodes where he loses his mind and acts like a child. Lucky for him and everyone else that they weren't treated the same way as Ruff for it. I sense there may be a chip on your shoulder. Just pointing out the hypocrisy when and where I see it =) No one is perfect, and if we went on a witch hunt every time someone said something mean and hurtful there wouldn't be very many of us left. The only difference between Ruff and TB is that Ruff said the wrong thing to a guy most of us absolutely love. Had he said something similar to a random person we'd never heard of (like TB does) he'd still have a team.
lawwllll
Here's the difference between me and Ruff, I have never, ever gone out of my way to make a barbed personal attack towards someone else in this scene, exploiting knowledge of their current bad situation to inflict maximum emotional damage. I've then also not gone on to gloat about doing so on my stream afterwards. You want to compare what he did to me being "condescending" to someone who said something stupid in a thread? It is absolutely adorable (or terrifying, either works) that you think the two are comparable.
Nice job with the false equivalency though. I'm sure everyone will believe that because I called you an idiot or whatever it is I did to get you all grudgey in a thread once that I am just as bad. We'll add you to the pile of people who doesn't understand what hypocrisy is.
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On June 17 2014 00:32 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:22 ZasZ. wrote:On June 16 2014 23:18 SirLanzealot wrote:
Why can E-sport teams offer medical coverage to their players? It should be mandatory, at least for US based teams, to offer medical coverage for their players in the US. It'll help some players like Minigun in the case they overcome any serious illness. I'm all for the pitchforking in cases like this because our society could do with a lot less people saying stupid hurtful shit just because they are mad. He was punished, and apologized. Pitchforking just seems like bullying. He paid a stiff price for what he said, which was obviously brought on by their past relationship on ladder, etc. He doesn't give excuses and accepted his firing/removal from the team. He obviously wanted to hurt miniguns feelings, and minigun certainly returned the favor with his tweet. What else do you want? He hasn't really won anything in SC2, why do we need to spend 27 pages bashing the guy for an unflattering moment? I guess some enjoy to vent personal frustration when they notice something that strikes a personal chord, but I wish that forgiveness and maturity were a more prevailing theme.
Apologizing is the right thing to do, but it doesn't make the issue go away, it just minimizes the damage. That's the thing about speech, you can't take it back once its out there.
I don't want anything, and the post you quoted is my first post in this thread (I think) so I don't really feel like I'm contributing to the pitchforking that much. It's not for me to forgive him, that ball is in Minigun's court, since this individual has done nothing to me. I just like to see consequences for dumb, easily preventable, actions. There's too much toxicity on the internet and I'm glad to see repercussions for something that many people take for granted in competitive video games (rage). The pitchforking is almost as bad, but one step at a time.
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EPT
