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Welcome this month's edition of the top 50 streamers list. 
Twitch.tv is slowly getting some serious competition in the form of azubu.tv and mlg.tv. Competition is always good, of course, and with Youtube buying out twitch there will undoubtedly be some changes coming up for us. But, unfortunately, neither azubu nor mlg offer APIs for their streaming platforms right now, restricting the information I can gather.
In short, anything I present below does not contain any data from azubu.tv or mlg.tv. That means I am missing some big player streams (Tastosis, MC, Hyun, Bomber, Mvp, NesTea, etc.), as well as some regular events (MLG qualifiers, Shoutcraft Clan Wars). Please keep that in mind. There's nothing I can do about this situation, unfortunately, and it won't change until the two platforms start offering APIs for their services.
Table of contents
Huh? What's this?
For those of you who don't already know what this is about: I'm gathering various data (viewers, game, events, etc.) from all the streams that are presented on teamliquid.net (those that you can in the sidebar to your right) and use that data to produce the pretty tables and graphs you see below. The tables only contain SC2 players (that is, streams of people playing games of Starcraft 2) and not casters, teams or other streams. The tables also only contain Starcraft 2 related activities. So, for instance when CatZ is streaming Dota2, it will not be taken into account.
The data I gather is then turned into the tables you see below. One is sorted by the average viewers, the other is sorted by the average viewers times the hours streamed. The latter table favors those that stream a lot, while the former table favors popular streamers regardless of how much they stream. Either ranking has its advantages and disadvantages, and thus I present both.
For either table, I have a minimum required stream time of 5 hours to be included in the list.
The list
Due to space limitations, I have to shorten the headers and leave some data out of the tables presented here. You can get the full tables from the links below.
The headers aren't as clear as I'd like them to be thanks to this, so here's a quick explanation, just in case: "Viewers" denotes the average viewers in the given month. "Hours" are the hours played. "Place diff" and "Viewer diff" are the place and viewer differences compared to last month.
Also, the HTML version linked beneath the images has some more information that I had to leave out due to space limitation, most notably the featured status of the players.
Now, Without further ado, here's this month's tables:
Stray observations and musings
- Well, at least now we can stop arguing about whether Stephano is retired or not. His move to Meltdown gaming did not hurt his viewer numbers at all. He didn't stream all that much, but as always, he remains the most popular SC2 streamer around.
- And just like last month, Winter easily takes the number one spot to in the viewers*hours category. Not only that, but he continues to steadily gain a healthy amount of viewers, coming in third in the viewers category. Congrats again!
- Here's some information on some of the lesser known names in the lists:
 Balloon is a Korean random player who has found a bit of a fanbase over at reddit, among other things thanks to the achievement of being the top of the Korean ladder while playing random, which sure is quite an impressive feat.
- Journey is a former SKT1 terran player. He never had any big results, making it to Code A a few times.
- Notable absentees last month: Grubby (probably preparing for his WCS matches), Demuslim, jjakji, Thorzain, Crank.
- If you find any mistakes or errors in the lists, please do let me know, especially concerning team changes or players that you are absolutely sure should be on the lists, but are not.
The big picture
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Monthly%20viewers%202014%2005.png) (The actual numbers are not important, it's the ratio between month that's important.)
Note that these are player streams only.
Player stream numbers have recovered slightly compared to the previous month.
As I said in the introduction, these numbers do not include data from azubu.tv, which means that streamers like MC, mvp, Hyun, Bomber and others are not accounted for. On Twitch, they used to get pretty good numbers when they streamed, so the overall player stream numbers might look a good bit better than what we see above. Unfortunately, there's no way of knowing this for sure.
Overall stream views
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Monthly%20viewers%202014%2005 all.png) (The actual numbers are not important, it's the ratio between month that's important.)
Pretty much the same can be said for the overall stream numbers as above: They recovered slightly, and they do not contain all the viewer numbers as all data from mlg.tv is missing. So no Shoutcraft Clan Wars, and no MLG qualifiers. Neither events are that big, so it's not that much of a problem, yet. But soon we will have a proper premier MLG event, and those numbers will most likely be missing from my data as well. It's quite possible that I will retire this graph at that point, since it might be quite misleading if the data is missing premier event viewer numbers.
WCS/GSL
WCS numbers are largely steady, with WCS EU taking the lead, as always, hovering a bit over ~20.000 viewers on average for most of their events, while WCS AM and GSL are on equal terms in terms of viewership.
Proleague & ATC
Proleague viewership remains roughly above 10.000 viewers on average, remaining quite popular. ATC isn't quite doing as well, but then again, there's been ATC matches going on pretty much every day in the last month, and considering that, the numbers haven't been that bad.
That's all for this month. Hope you guys enjoyed, as always. Any kind of feedback is always welcome!
Older entries
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wtf 366 hours streamed by neuroswarm o.0
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Canada16217 Posts
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Due to the amount of viewbotting going on with Winter, it seems disingenuous to not at least mention the possibility that these numbers could be wildly off.
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hmm yeah if the player with most hours has viewbots (has it been confirmed either way yet?) then that would lower the numbers a lot I'd imagine
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I thought people with viewbots get auto-banned.
At least that's how it works on YouTube.
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viewbotting? twitch is a professional company, wouldn't they have a handle on that sort of thing?
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On June 02 2014 04:05 castleeMg wrote:
viewbotting? twitch is a professional company, wouldn't they have a handle on that sort of thing?
The other day I saw a girl on twitch streaming minecraft
She alone had 110k viewers (more than LoL)
I immediately thought something improper was going on there, but it was just nothing much :D
Then people were saying in the chat that that was viewbotting, or something like that
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Canada16217 Posts
On June 02 2014 04:02 urboss wrote:
I thought people with viewbots get auto-banned.
At least that's how it works on YouTube.
If someones being view-botted it doesn't mean their doing it, as it could be someone that doesn't like Winter.
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On June 02 2014 03:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Due to the amount of viewbotting going on with Winter, it seems disingenuous to not at least mention the possibility that these numbers could be wildly off.
Or maybe people like his content?
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On June 02 2014 04:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 03:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Due to the amount of viewbotting going on with Winter, it seems disingenuous to not at least mention the possibility that these numbers could be wildly off. Or maybe people like his content?
You are acting like this is somehow up for discussion. It's not, he has been viewbotted, his numbers are wildly inconsistent with large gains and drops over the course of short periods of time. The only way this happens is if you have been viewbotted. As to who is responsible, that can't be confirmed. Streams get viewbotted all the time, but Winters stream is frequently affected by this. His social media metrics don't match up with his streaming numbers either, which is another clue that indicates viewbotting is going on. He is still relatively popular, more so than most progamers, but to suggest he has not been subject to viewbotting is disconnected from reality.
viewbotting? twitch is a professional company, wouldn't they have a handle on that sort of thing?
As opposed to an amateur company? O_o Twitch can't do anything about it other than take the channel down, which considering most viewbotting occurs outside of the streamers control, is not something you should be doing.
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China6328 Posts
You deserve a star for this dude. Also for what it's worth Winter is definitely highly suspicious of viewbotting.
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View botting is usually not under the control of the streamer, but under the control of viewers who want negative consequences to occur.
Thanks for the info as always dude!
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On June 02 2014 04:11 Ace Frehley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 04:05 castleeMg wrote:
viewbotting? twitch is a professional company, wouldn't they have a handle on that sort of thing? The other day I saw a girl on twitch streaming minecraft She alone had 110k viewers (more than LoL) I immediately thought something improper was going on there, but it was just nothing much :D Then people were saying in the chat that that was viewbotting, or something like that
I saw the same thing with some random guy going up to 23k that played Super Meat Boy and normally has 1k viewers.
He realized it himself and stopped playing trying to fix it, after a few minutes it was back to normal.
I thought that this was some twitch glitch at the time.
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In response to some of the comments above: Viewbotting is very real, and it does happen. It's not as trivial to detect as one might imagine (depending on how smart the viewbotting services are), and people (talking about twitch streamers here, not specifically SC2 streamers) have streamed for weeks or even month while blatantly viewbotting before they got banned.
On June 02 2014 03:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Due to the amount of viewbotting going on with Winter, it seems disingenuous to not at least mention the possibility that these numbers could be wildly off.
First of all, get well soon, TB! There's few people who have done as much for the community as you have.
Back on topic: I considered to mention this, yes. But I ultimately decided against it after reading this post on /r/starcraft, which looked more closely at the numbers and makes a few good points. The TL;DR version of the post is that Winter's viewer/chat user/chat message numbers do not look any different from other popular streamers.
Now of course that does not disprove that Winter (or anyone else) is viewbotting, and I certainly do not know for certain whether he does or does not, just like I don't know that about anyone else. But it's a good read for anyone interested in the issue, and it makes some good points, especially comparing the numbers to other popular streamers.
In addition, I have not seen any circumstantial evidence other than the argument that he is (or was) virtually unknown and yet gets a ton of viewers, and that Winter himself said that he occasionally gets botted by others. If anyone has anything more substantial than that, I'd love to hear it.
I've had a look at my own data and compiled Winter's monthly average, peak viewership and hours streamed:
+ Show Spoiler +Date|Avg. Viewers|Peak|Hours
2012-07|3.01986754966887|11|75
2012-08|2.86363636363636|18|49
2012-09|6.28723404255319|45|94
2012-10|92.70823798627|1446|218
2012-11|14.4970588235294|40|85
2012-12|15.5133689839572|98|93
2013-01|19.3636363636364|135|118
2013-02|54.4929577464789|185|177
2013-03|94.5448798988622|299|197
2013-04|86.1842105263158|193|180
2013-05|70.1375291375291|202|107
2013-06|95.2496194824962|278|164
2013-07|159.374068554396|694|167
2013-08|105.292253521127|241|142
2013-09|113.690909090909|246|123
2013-10|121.870624048706|454|164
2013-11|194.019108280255|962|157
2013-12|544.108137044968|1407|233
2014-01|488.801377726751|2481|217
2014-02|473.30316091954|1142|174
2014-03|554.789351851852|1095|216
2014-04|1392.56911581569|3288|200
2014-05|2145.71169916435|3557|179
As we can see, Winter has been streaming for ages, starting in late 2012. He has put some serious hours into his streaming ever since, and he has streamed for many months with <50 viewers. He started with virtually no viewers, and that viewership grew steadily over the months to what it is now.
Also note that Winter got featured here on teamliquid.net in late April this year. The jump in viewership happened in that month, but before he got featured, so there doesn't seem to be a connection there. The viewership continued to grow after he was featured, of course.
Playing the devil's advocate here: If he is viewbotting, when did he start? In December 2013, when his average viewership grew by ~300 people and then stayed steady for the next 4 months? In April this year when his average viewership more than doubled? Last month, when his average viewership grew by 700 people? Did he spent months slowly increasing his viewbot count to make the rise of viewers seem more natural? I honestly don't know. If he really is viewbotting, he is a very, very smart viewbotter.
Ultimately, I don't know, and the only time I can say with certainty that someone is viewbotting is when it's done in a blatantly obvious way. This is far from an obvious case, however, and with others already having crunched the numbers and coming to no specific conclusion that there might be viewbotting, and my own data giving similar results, I decided not to mention it. Maybe I should have, I'm still not sure.
I might be inclined to change the OP if anyone has a link to a summary of the allegations (plus some evidence, of course). So far I've only found off-hand remarks that he must be viewbotting, and posts defending him in great detail. I would have imagined that there is a reddit post somewhere that says "Winter ist viewbotting, and here's evidence proving it" or something along those lines, but I couldn't find anything. 
Edit: Basically, I don't like to make (or repeat) unsubstantiated allegations. If anyone has any compelling arguments and/or circumstantial evidence for the viewbotting, link/make them here and I'll most likely link them in the OP.
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Regarding Winter, I've been in his stream where he even points out himself how he believes he is being viewbotted (at the time).
I think he would have generally high viewership now anyways, but his viewership numbers seem to spike heavily/randomly. I would be interested to see the data on this, and see how often he gets ~1K more viewers "instantly".
Back on the data, thanks Conti for putting these together, they are always interesting to go over.
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On June 02 2014 04:39 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 04:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 03:37 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Due to the amount of viewbotting going on with Winter, it seems disingenuous to not at least mention the possibility that these numbers could be wildly off. Or maybe people like his content? You are acting like this is somehow up for discussion. It's not, he has been viewbotted, his numbers are wildly inconsistent with large gains and drops over the course of short periods of time. The only way this happens is if you have been viewbotted. As to who is responsible, that can't be confirmed. Streams get viewbotted all the time, but Winters stream is frequently affected by this. His social media metrics don't match up with his streaming numbers either, which is another clue that indicates viewbotting is going on. He is still relatively popular, more so than most progamers, but to suggest he has not been subject to viewbotting is disconnected from reality. Show nested quote +viewbotting? twitch is a professional company, wouldn't they have a handle on that sort of thing? As opposed to an amateur company? O_o Twitch can't do anything about it other than take the channel down, which considering most viewbotting occurs outside of the streamers control, is not something you should be doing.
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too)
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its pretty obvious winter has tons of viewbots
without them he has around 200 viewers
it might not be him it could be him doing it
it would be nice if twitch fixed this problem because it is nice to get accurate viewing numbers for everything
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On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too)
It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem.
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On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem.
then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find.
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oh nice I see myself on here yay!
And good lord neuroswarm outpassioning painuser!
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On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find.
The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works.
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On June 02 2014 04:39 TotalBiscuit wrote:
You are acting like this is somehow up for discussion. It's not, he has been viewbotted, his numbers are wildly inconsistent with large gains and drops over the course of short periods of time. The only way this happens is if you have been viewbotted. As to who is responsible, that can't be confirmed. Streams get viewbotted all the time, but Winters stream is frequently affected by this. His social media metrics don't match up with his streaming numbers either, which is another clue that indicates viewbotting is going on.
It's absolutely up for discussion until Twitch comes forward and says they find something consistently suspicious. Because the only data provided so far from DarkAutumn, showed that his viewer numbers vs. chat interactions are not very suspicious and line up within range of other popular streams.
And his "social media metrics" have grown quite a bit since I first started following up. When I started watching him he had 100-200 viewers, and 50 Twitter followers. He doesn't advertise his social media often in his stream (it's on the screen between games, but he hardly ever mentions it). What he does advertise is his twitch (telling people throughout the night every night to follow him on Twitch), and his Twitch account has over 23,000 followers (and 500 subscribers). That number doesn't seem out of balance for the views he gets. Especially because that number has grown in the last 3-5 months since he started reaching over 1000 viewers.
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On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find.
Even Winter said in his AMA than he gets viewbotted at times. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0kl
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On June 02 2014 05:52 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. Even Winter said in his AMA than he gets viewbotted at times. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0kl
Yeah at times, not every single night he streams (which is most nights). He constantly reaches over 2,000 viewers and people think he's being viewbotted then. Winter mentioned he believed he was being viewbotted the night he passed 3000 viewers, and once or twice before then when his viewer count passed nearly 1000 viewers higher than he had before.
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On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works.
So basically no data, ty
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On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0kl
Other than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough.
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On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough.
Since you missed my post right above the one you replied to, he mentioned that he's been viewbotted a few times that he's aware of - when his views went over 1000 more than usual (the latest last month when he passed over 3,000 for serveral hours). That was obvious to him (and he even said so during his stream). But that doesn't mean he's constantly being viewbotted pushing him to average such a high amount of viewers. And as I also pointed out, having 23,000 followers on Twitch (many relatively new - and therefore more likely to be active - in the last several months) doesn't seem out of line with the amount of views he gets.
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Is there followerbotting as well?
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On June 02 2014 06:06 urboss wrote:
Is there followerbotting as well?
Yes. It's also possible to get bots in your chat, and I've heard you can even get them to say random things (says a lot about twitch chat when you can replace them with bots and nobody notices, eh?  ). And while we're at it, you can also buy followers for twitter and facebook.
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On June 02 2014 06:04 Andelas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. Since you missed my post right above the one you replied to, he mentioned that he's been viewbotted a few times that he's aware of - when his views went over 1000 more than usual (the latest last month when he passed over 3,000 for serveral hours). That was obvious to him (and he even said so during his stream). But that doesn't mean he's constantly being viewbotted pushing him to average such a high amount of viewers. And as I also pointed out, having 23,000 followers on Twitch (many relatively new - and therefore more likely to be active - in the last several months) doesn't seem out of line with the amount of views he gets.
The_Red_Viper was asking for data that support TotalBiscuit's above statement that "some of his views are not legit". I think this qualifies as such.
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Winter has said that he has been viewbotted by others at times. Does anyone have the exact dates on when that happened?
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On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough.
So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it.
Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point?
I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list.
Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there.
The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really...
But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth.
And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/
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On June 02 2014 06:08 Conti wrote:
Winter has said that he has been viewbotted by others at times. Does anyone have the exact dates on when that happened?
The only date he specifically mentioned as far as I know, was "last night" in a post he wrote 22 days ago.
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If you guys want to see who's viewbotting (or getting viewbotted) this one catches most of them.
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On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works.
Massan has a very small social media following but has insane twitch views which could be the same for Winter no?
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On June 02 2014 06:25 EquilasH wrote:If you guys want to see who's viewbotting (or getting viewbotted) this one catches most of them.
Holy crap
If I am to believe this link is accurate, then stream numbers are useless now
Almost every viewer is fake for almost all streams
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On June 02 2014 06:14 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:08 Conti wrote:
Winter has said that he has been viewbotted by others at times. Does anyone have the exact dates on when that happened? The only date he specifically mentioned as far as I know, was "last night" in a post he wrote 22 days ago.
That would be the 10th or 11th. Here's his session on the 10th: (Times are my time zone, not his)
+ Show Spoiler +Date|Viewers
2014-05-10 02:29:28|56
2014-05-10 02:44:28|524
2014-05-10 02:59:28|1103
2014-05-10 03:14:28|1588
2014-05-10 03:29:26|2008
2014-05-10 03:44:29|1981
2014-05-10 03:59:28|1945
2014-05-10 04:14:28|2032
2014-05-10 04:29:26|2202
2014-05-10 04:44:27|2360
2014-05-10 04:59:28|2318 <-
2014-05-10 05:14:28|3235 <-
2014-05-10 05:29:28|3335
2014-05-10 05:44:28|3280
2014-05-10 05:59:27|3052
2014-05-10 06:14:28|3046
2014-05-10 06:29:29|3111
2014-05-10 06:44:26|2918
2014-05-10 06:59:28|2956
2014-05-10 07:14:28|2701 <-
2014-05-10 07:29:28|1678 <-
2014-05-10 07:44:28|2284
2014-05-10 07:59:28|2418
2014-05-10 08:14:28|2645
2014-05-10 08:29:28|2713
2014-05-10 08:44:27|2790
There's a jump of almost exactly 1000 viewers at 5:14, and a drop of almost exactly 1000 at 7:14, 2 hours later, so his story checks out.
Now did he viewbot, or was someone viewbotting him? The whole streaming session lasted from 2:30 until 8:45, over 6 hours. It seems odd to randomly viewbot 2 hours out of those 8. And looking at the numbers for his stream on the day after, I see no similar jumps anywhere.
If I find the time, I might write a script checking for similar jumps in his viewer numbers and see if any more show up. Winter points out two instances of him being botted in that reddit comment. Assuming that's true, he was viewbotted for about 5 hours in May, for about 1000 additional viewers. Even doubling that, those numbers really do not add all that much to his average. Of course, this is a matter of principle more than anything, and if it turns out that he is being viewbotted regularly (more than just a couple of times a month), that should be mentioned in the OP.
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On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/
Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Smurfing against gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
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On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career.
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On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Smurfing against gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
As i said in a comment before, this part isn't so much about you, i have no idea why you would also jump on the hate train, but apparently you do.
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On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career.
Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits.
i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do.
Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism.
No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse.
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I must admit I never heard of WinterSC before he was featured on TL. Him pulling that much viewers is kind of odd, but still, since there aren't much streamer at that time, and people are looking for entertainment, so they may as well look at his stream, even if he's not really good at the game.
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On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits.
You came here to discredit someone you clearly hardly ever watch. If it's not jealousy, it's ineptitude. You have no data to back up your feelings, yet you said it's not up for discussion anymore. You like to act like you're the arbiter of truths, but have nothing to back yourself up, then complain when others call you out on it.
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On June 02 2014 06:45 Andelas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. You came here to discredit someone you clearly hardly ever watch. If it's not jealousy, it's ineptitude. You have no data to back up your feelings, yet you said it's not up for discussion anymore. You like to act like you're the arbiter of truths, but have nothing to back yourself up, then complain when others call you out on it.
Why would I watch someone I don't like? I'm not a fan of drinking my own piss either, are you going to call me out on the lack of hours I've put into that too? I've seen enough of him gloating or being unnecessarily critical as he smurfs against people far below his level for a living, to know that I dislike his methods. I do not need to clock 200 hours of stream watching to come to that conclusion. I also know that he has boosted accounts of others, which is against the ToS and messes with the integrity of the ladder, yet there have been no consequences to these actions. Smurfing professionally is not something that should be applauded.
The fact that he was viewbotted (note fact) is not up for discussion, since has admitted it. As a result the numbers in the OP are in question. Arguing semantics with me won't get you anywhere. I don't act like an arbiter of truths, I act as a very experienced streamer that sees those numbers as inflated based on 5 years of streaming experience and the admission of the streamer that viewbotting has occurred, though as to how much remains to be seen.
Tell me again how your "call out" is anything more than fanbois getting rustled?
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On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. Show nested quote +i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do. Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism. No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse.
I have no problem with criticism for "my favorite" streamer, i can understand why people think that way, even though i don't agree with them. My problem starts when people like you (with a big following and HUGE influence on the community) start to "witch-hunt" somebody based on rumors, data collected by "your eyes" and other nonsense.
If you feel he doesn't deserve the viewers he gets, ok that is a reasonable point for discussion, when you blatantly try to dismiss the success he had to work for for a very long time, i just think it is pretty retarded and somewhat jealous(we all know sc2 doesn't really grow) (again, i don't necessarily compare him to you, but there are other streamers out there who go the same route with their "criticism)
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On June 02 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:
I must admit I never heard of WinterSC before he was featured on TL. Him pulling that much viewers is kind of odd, but still, since there aren't much streamer at that time, and people are looking for entertainment, so they may as well look at his stream, even if he's not really good at the game.
I think the kinda weird thing was that just before he was feautered he constitently had like 600-700 viewers. Then the first week after he got featured, I actually remember thinking it was weird how he didn't really gain anything, becasue he was still at a similar level. But just a couple of days after I had thought, he was somehow able to consistently gain around 2-3K viewers.
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On June 02 2014 06:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do. Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism. No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse. I have no problem with criticism for "my favorite" streamer, i can understand why people think that way, even though i don't agree with them. My problem starts when people like you (with a big following and HUGE influence on the community) start to "witch-hunt" somebody based on rumors, data collected by "your eyes" and other nonsense. If you feel he doesn't deserve the viewers he gets, ok that is a reasonable point for discussion, when you blatantly try to dismiss the success he had to work for for a very long time, i just think it is pretty retarded and somewhat jealous(we all know sc2 doesn't really grow) (again, i don't necessarily compare him to you, but there are other streamers out there who go the same route with their "criticism)
What witchhunt am I starting exactly? Have I begun some sort of campaign to have him delisted from TL? Have his stream partnership revoked? Have I even mentioned the guy outside of this forum? No, I haven't. Everything I have stated up to this point has been a fact and my personal opinion of him is based on those facts.
Was he viewbotted? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA
Is the data in the OP as a result potentially compromised? Yes, logically it is, problem is we don't know by how much.
Does he smurf a great deal? Yes.
Has he boosted other peoples accounts which is against the ToS? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA
That's really all there is to it. There's not much to argue with here, these are all facts. The extent of the viewbotting is up for discussion, the fact that it has happened is not.
I find your attitude bizarre. I have experience and influence, so it's not ok for me to speak on such matters, but it is entirely ok for someone like you who has neither to discuss it? Nah sorry the world doesn't work that way. If I was using any of my influence to attack Winter then maybe you would have a point. If I was going around on Twitter shit-talking him, sure, I'd be being irresponsible, but I'm not, I'm merely having a conversation in a forum thread.
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On June 02 2014 06:51 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:
I must admit I never heard of WinterSC before he was featured on TL. Him pulling that much viewers is kind of odd, but still, since there aren't much streamer at that time, and people are looking for entertainment, so they may as well look at his stream, even if he's not really good at the game. I think the kinda weird thing was that just before he was feautered he constitently had like 600-700 viewers. Then the first week after he got featured, I actually remember thinking it was weird how he didn't really gain anything, becasue he was still at a similar level. But just a couple of days after I had thought, he was somehow able to consistently gain around 2-3K viewers.
He had double that amount of viewers before being featured. In April he averaged 1300 viewers. I forget the exact day he was featured, but it wasn't until the end of April or early May.
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On June 02 2014 06:25 EquilasH wrote:If you guys want to see who's viewbotting (or getting viewbotted) this one catches most of them.
According to this link, ESL had 14,017 of its 14,201 viewers botted earlier today. That is clearly wrong, do i don't think anyone should listen to this twitter account.
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Reaching >1000 viewers without being feature is really strange too. The only similar case was Has, who is well known and reach a totally different audience.
Considering viewership is kinda low nowadays, and there are a lot of better players than WinterSC, maybe as entertaining as him, this is really weird.
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On June 02 2014 07:03 Josh_Video wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:25 EquilasH wrote:If you guys want to see who's viewbotting (or getting viewbotted) this one catches most of them. According to this link, ESL had 14,017 of its 14,201 viewers botted earlier today. That is clearly wrong, do i don't think anyone should listen to this twitter account.
Yeah that account is complete horseshit. IIRC the last one got banned because it was basically accusing people falsely of being viewbotted which caused their channels to get raided.
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On June 02 2014 07:05 Faust852 wrote:
Reaching >1000 viewers without being feature is really strange too. The only similar case was Has, who is well known and reach a totally different audience.
Considering viewership is kinda low nowadays, and there are a lot of better players than WinterSC, maybe as entertaining as him, this is really weird.
myspyte reached like 1k viewers too before being featured. it's rare but it happens, consindering that TL isnt the only place to watch sc2 streams.
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On June 02 2014 06:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. i have no idea why you would aslo jump on the hate train, but apparently you do. Ahh yes the good old "hate train". Everyone who criticizes this guy has gotta be a "hater". It's a childish way of approaching things and completely dismissive of criticism. No sorry, you'll have to accept that there are good reasons for not liking your favourite streamer and that going out and attacking those that don't only makes him and his fans look worse. I have no problem with criticism for "my favorite" streamer, i can understand why people think that way, even though i don't agree with them. My problem starts when people like you (with a big following and HUGE influence on the community) start to "witch-hunt" somebody based on rumors, data collected by "your eyes" and other nonsense. If you feel he doesn't deserve the viewers he gets, ok that is a reasonable point for discussion, when you blatantly try to dismiss the success he had to work for for a very long time, i just think it is pretty retarded and somewhat jealous(we all know sc2 doesn't really grow) (again, i don't necessarily compare him to you, but there are other streamers out there who go the same route with their "criticism) What witchhunt am I starting exactly? Have I begun some sort of campaign to have him delisted from TL? Have his stream partnership revoked? Have I even mentioned the guy outside of this forum? No, I haven't. Everything I have stated up to this point has been a fact and my personal opinion of him is based on those facts. Was he viewbotted? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA Is the data in the OP as a result potentially compromised? Yes, logically it is, problem is we don't know by how much. Does he smurf a great deal? Yes. Has he boosted other peoples accounts which is against the ToS? Yes, 100% confirmed by him in the AMA That's really all there is to it. There's not much to argue with here, these are all facts. The extent of the viewbotting is up for discussion, the fact that it has happened is not. I find your attitude bizarre. I have experience and influence, so it's not ok for me to speak on such matters, but it is entirely ok for someone like you who has neither to discuss it? Nah sorry the world doesn't work that way. If I was using any of my influence to attack Winter then maybe you would have a point. If I was going around on Twitter shit-talking him, sure, I'd be being irresponsible, but I'm not, I'm merely having a conversation in a forum thread.
Well i don't know if you mentioned him anyhwere else, i just know that there are some figureheads who mention him from time to time, almost everytime in a bad light though.
Obviously i agree with all of that, i don't want to neglect that viewbotting was going on, but like the reddit article i linked in another comment stated it isn't a regular thing, otherwise you would have to be suspicious about a lot of other streams as well (for example stephano).
So yeah your first comment was just a little bit on the nastier side of things imo, but whatever, i guess it comes down to you not liking him (which is obviously fine)
I also don't want to say that you can't talk about this stuff, i just think it is weird to be so offensive when you don't have much data to back it up (YES he stated he got botted, that doesn't mean it matters much in the big picture though)
But whatever, cause nobody really has any stats this discussion is completely useless in the end- have fun watching game of thrones or anything...
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On June 02 2014 06:49 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:45 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:42 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:41 Andelas wrote:On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Beating up gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer. And your comments here show that you really don't watch his stream and feel justified in being smarmy yourself based on nothing but your own smugness. He starts every stream playing his masters account for at least an hour or two (usually 10-15 games) then switches. But hey, you clearly haven't given any thought before making a judgement on someone else, then again, that's pretty much the foundation of your career. Your honour I rest my case, I think we have proven beyond a doubt that Winters fanbois are insufferable toxic nitwits. You came here to discredit someone you clearly hardly ever watch. If it's not jealousy, it's ineptitude. You have no data to back up your feelings, yet you said it's not up for discussion anymore. You like to act like you're the arbiter of truths, but have nothing to back yourself up, then complain when others call you out on it. Why would I watch someone I don't like? I'm not a fan of drinking my own piss either, are you going to call me out on the lack of hours I've put into that too? I've seen enough of him gloating or being unnecessarily critical as he smurfs against people far below his level for a living, to know that I dislike his methods. I do not need to clock 200 hours of stream watching to come to that conclusion. I also know that he has boosted accounts of others, which is against the ToS and messes with the integrity of the ladder, yet there have been no consequences to these actions. Smurfing professionally is not something that should be applauded. The fact that he was viewbotted (note fact) is not up for discussion, since has admitted it. As a result the numbers in the OP are in question. Arguing semantics with me won't get you anywhere. I don't act like an arbiter of truths, I act as a very experienced streamer that sees those numbers as inflated based on 5 years of streaming experience and the admission of the streamer that viewbotting has occurred, though as to how much remains to be seen. Tell me again how your "call out" is anything more than fanbois getting rustled?
I don't expect everyone to like him. I understand that there are plenty of people out there who don't like that he smurfs and plays lower-leagues during his "bronze to masters" stuff. But that's not a reason for people to try and discredit him and to suggest his averages are so high because of botting. Being botted a few times a month does not significantly change the averages. And since it happens to many streamers and its out of their control, people are unfairly focusing their disdain for it toward Winter. He's not rigging his view counts and yet every-time his name comes up people suggest he is, without proof, and for whatever reason feel justified in hurting any credibility he has and trying to diminish him.
You don't like that he smurfs, that's fine. I do, because he's much more interactive that someone who doesn't. I don't expect everyone to like that. But to conflate two issues together (smurfing with botting) is disingenuous. Especially when you're someone standing at the top pissing down at someone trying their best to build an audience.
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Did someone in this thread suggest that TB was jealous of a guy with 2k viewers? Yeah... Bill Gates is jealous of sc2 casters, they bring in so much money 
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Guys, calm down. Y'all should direct your passion away from this thread and back to the game.
There's two important unanswered questions here:
a) Did Winter viewbot himself?
b) How often did/does he get viewbotted?
As for a), we obviously can't know for sure. But the random instances of viewbotting that happen definitely make it look very unlikely that Winter has anything to do with it. Surely it would have made more sense for him to viewbot entire sessions over many days instead of random sessions for just a few hours?
As for b), that's the more interesting question. TotalBiscuit is correct, the viewer data is compromised to a certain degree thanks to the viewbotting. The question is: by how much? If it's really just ~5 hours a month, for a streamer who streams ~200 hours a month, I'd say the influence of the viewbotting is negligent. It might be worth pointing out if it continues, though. And it's definitely worth investigating further.
Quite frankly, I think viewbotting is a huge problem for twitch in general. I've seen other streams getting randomly viewbotted from 200 viewers to 10.000 for an hour, and there's nothing the streamers can do about it. I've also seen examples of streamers viewbotting themselves to ~2.000 viewers every time, and it took weeks until that streamer got banned. Twitch needs to put more effort into taking care of these issues.
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destiny my friend you need to stream more! ^.^
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Thank you again Conti for putting the work into the post, the numbers and fact checking as always. I know there are plenty of people who don't like me, my stream, my content, or anything surrounding it. Honestly I would rarely watch my own stream, I prefer Mingun, Polt, Innovation, etc. I do enjoy streaming and talking with people who enjoy my stream, which is why I've done it for almost 3 years.
I don't deserve viewers more than Polt or Innovation, I don't have a higher level or skill or better content. Honestly all I have is brute force and an ability to talk for hours on end. Conti pointed out earlier some major viewer jumps in both December and April of these past few months.
December(jump from about 200 avg viewers to 500): I finished school for the semester about a week into December. From that point I streamed 233 hours that month(about 10 hours a day after the first week), only taking a day off for Christmas. This was a time when there were very few tournaments and no WCS, so a lot of the time I was able to be on the front page of starcraft twitch, and I was lucky enough to pick up a twitch partnership and also a subscriber button.
April(jump from about 600 to 1300 viewers): I went back to school for Winter semester, so I could not stream as much, as consistently or for the length of time that I did over December break. WCS, many tournaments and other things started back up again for the year, so I wasn't able to see any real growth besides subscribers/followers throughout.
2 things lined up again after. First, I finished school in mid April, and second I fixed my ISP issues. For over a year I had an issue with my ISP where it would go offline for 5-15 seconds at a time every 1-2 hours, taking the stream offline and usually 25-40% of my viewers with it. I finally was able to work out settings that would avoid most of these reconnects and instead of continually dropping and gaining viewers throughout the night I was able to build. Since I was off school again I streamed for 25 days in a row between mid april and early May, once again not with a huge display of skill or a tournament win, just lucky enough to be near the top of twitch and pick up some viewers that might for one reason or another be interested in other streams. On top of that I was featured on teamliquid near the very end of the month which helped a bit more as well.
This is what happened to increase my viewers. I stream in a way that allows me to stream for long periods of time, which is usually smurfing. I don't have the skill or stamina to play at my top level and commentate for the 8+ hours that I stream at, and I don't pretend to be competitive or an authority on strategy or the game. I have content that some people like to watch, and I like interacting with those people. There is a base out there of people just looking for someone to talk about the game, without a regard to being a top pro, which is what makes people like Totalbiscuit so entertaining. I listened to WCRadio shows about lore and dungeons even though I was exclusively a competitive PvP player back in World of Warcraft because people talking is entertaining.
As for social media metrics which has been pointed out before, I just recently became anywhere close to active. My facebook only has 1700likes, my twitter only 1600. Another point here, I lost access to my previous twitter account(email issues) @WinterStarcraft last year when I had around 500 followers. That twitter account now has almost 450 more followers(with 0 tweets since September), while the twitter account I created in December to replace it @StarcraftWinter has 1600. My youtube channel has gained over 2500 subscibers in the past 2 months while being under 2000 for almost 2
years. I probably could do more with social media but honestly I've never really been involved.
As for the claims of viewbots, yes they have happened on my stream just like other streams all across twitch. I stream for more than most streamers as I'm able to commit so much time, so I am stuck with them proportionally more often. As for on a regular basis, I have doubled my subscriber count from 250-500 in the past 6-8 weeks along with a nearly equal increase in donations and follows as well. If all of these things are botted that would be extremely demoralizing, just like being repeatedly accused of it.
I don't feel entitled to viewers, I don't even really find my own content particularly entertaining or educational. All I do is produce enough of that content on a regular basis that enough people seemed to be interested in to allow me to comfortably make it a full time career. Viewbots don't pay my bills, I dont run ads on my stream. If you don't enjoy my content, I understand. If you don't like me, I definitely understand that as well. Please don't feel obligated to defend me if you enjoy the stream, constructive criticism is always preferred. Thanks for reading. Also sorry Conti for hijacking your thread.
TL;DR: I just sit at home and talk at internet people a lot.
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the comments on this thread...  no one should attack winter, hes put alot of hours into building a solid interactive stream. if there is some viewbotting program out there, then it wouldnt be solely affecting winter, hundreds of other streams could be fraudulent. if you seriously believe there is foul play, you should be trying to contact twitch and asking for stream viewer data and demands should be made for them to fix it.
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Twitch is (possibly) on the verge of being bought by Google on the basis of their numbers, I doubt they have any great desire to release them just because some channels are being saturated with viewbots
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I completely understand people wanting to watch someone troll at a reasonable level (see: Dragon). It's fun watching someone do something silly and actually have a great time, especially with viewer interaction. But averaging significantly more viewers than the winningest player of all time? If all of Winter's viewers are real people, this game is doomed.
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On June 02 2014 06:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 06:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:59 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 02 2014 05:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On June 02 2014 05:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:
My problem is that some "famous and important" figureheads of the community act like it is 100% confirmed that he isn't legit.
I can understand that people find it somewhat suspicious, but this "witch-hunt" looks very bad imo.
You can think about his content what you want (only smurfs, blabla), but he produces A LOT of content and people seem to enjoy what he is doing. If the already established people get jealous and spread rumors it is imo pretty sad, get your shit together and produce content people enjoy yourself! (that part isn't about you TB, but other streamers who are vocal about him too) It is 99% confirmed that some of his views are not legit. It is not confirmed that this is his own doing. He obviously has a fanbase, it's just not as big as these stats indicate. His recent questionable claims that he was the "#1 viewed Starcraft streamer" in his ill-fated AMA have served to only compound the problem. then pls link the data, all i saw is a reddit article that literally said his stream isn't more suspicious than any other streamer you can find. The data is my eyes and knowing how streaming works. So basically no data, ty http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/257n93/hi_im_wintersc_currently_the_1_sc2_streamer_i_am/chei0klOther than him admitting it? No I do not have access to the impossible to access data, shockingly enough. So what exactly does this prove? You and others make it look like he is not legit at all. That is where my problem with this bs starts, it is basically a witch-hunt cause the big boys don't have his numbers and get mad about it. Streams get botted, this is nothing new and not exclusive to Winter, so what exactly is your point? I could probably say exactly the same about 4 random other streams on that list. Does he get botted? Probably from time to time like many other streams out there. The interesting part isn't IF someone gets botted, but how substantial the botting is, as long as nobody shows any data with evidence that his numbers are WAY exaggerated, i don't see any point in this whole discussion really... But hey it is obviously easier to be a douchebag about this whole situation because you don't like his growth. And to add something usefull: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/26cnst/sc2_streams_and_viewbots_the_numbers/ Could you stop pretending that I am somehow jealous of Winters numbers? The last SC2 ladder stream I did I was above 10k concurrent. I have nothing to be jealous of. It's definitely easy to see where some of his fans get their obnoxious attitudes from though. Smurfing against gold leaguers in the name of "education" and then being smarmy about it is the reason some people don't like him, it has nothing to do with some imaginary "old boys club" being jealous of the newcomer.
That is easily the most jealous, stuck up post I've ever seen. How about you get down off your cross, cry me a river then use the wood to build a bridge and get over it.
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It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going.
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On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going.
It has nothing to do with being pro or not pro. What Winter does is unethical and as TB pointed out cheating. He just sits there all day on brand new accounts cheesing nubies. Who knows how many accounts he has boosted over the past year. What he does is delegitimizing the ladder and providing a bad example to the community.
It's ironic that his stream is titled "learn to play sc2." What can you possibly hope to learn from watching a high master player cheese a gold leaguer? Those cheeses wouldn't have nearly as much chance of success vs someone of his level. It's like watching Gary Kasparov beat a novice in Chess. Not to mention, the way he talks shit to his opponents (not in game, but on stream) makes me sick.
Over the last few months I noticed his viewer count went up about 6 times. I figure people like to live vicariously through his wins (since I imagine he never loses). I was one of the first people to give him love when he was a legit master random and I wouldn't falsely accuse him without evidence, but I can't say I like what he does.
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On June 02 2014 15:27 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going. It has nothing to do with being pro or not pro. What Winter does is unethical and as TB pointed out cheating. He just sits there all day on brand new accounts cheesing nubies. Who knows how many accounts he has boosted over the past year. What he does is delegitimizing the ladder and providing a bad example to the community. It's ironic that his stream is titled "learn to play sc2." What can you possibly hope to learn from watching a high master player cheese a gold leaguer? Those cheeses wouldn't have nearly as much chance of success vs someone of his level. It's like watching Gary Kasparov beat a novice in Chess. Not to mention, the way he talks shit to his opponents (not in game, but on stream) makes me sick. Over the last few months I noticed his viewer count went up about 6 times. I figure people like to live vicariously through his wins (since I imagine he never loses). I was one of the first people to give him love when he was a legit master random and I wouldn't falsely accuse him without evidence, but I can't say I like what he does.
I randomly tuned in twice, each time it looked like it was some comp stomping with bm commentary. Not entertaining at all, surprised people gave him any money.
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On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going.
I just threw up in my mouth.
WinterStarcraft wrote:
I don't have the skill or stamina to play at my top level and commentate for the 8+ hours that I stream at, and I don't pretend to be competitive or an authority on strategy or the game.
WinterStarcraft wrote:
I don't feel entitled to viewers, I don't even really find my own content particularly entertaining or educational. All I do is produce enough of that content on a regular basis that enough people seemed to be interested in to allow me to comfortably make it a full time career.
Meanwhile..
Despite suffering from Crohn's Disease and crippling anxiety/depression, Minigun continues to pursue professional SC2. And despite the huge amount of support he's gotten after he made his health concerns public on TL, he struggles to maintain 1/4th Winter's viewership. But he's still going.
TB owns and manages a professional SC2 team and produces ungodly amounts of content for SC2 while juggling his other YouTube ventures. He'd probably make a LOT more money if he kicked SC2 to the curb and focused 100% on aliev gaems. Still, not long after being diagnosed with bowel cancer, he announces The Sandisk SHOUTcraft Invitational.
[I'm just going to stop here. There are a lot of passionate people in this scene and these two were mentioned in this thread.]
But hey, there's this kid named Winter who wouldn't mind playing video games and talking to people for a living. What a hero. Please, tell me more about passion.
Look, Winter seems like a decent guy. I don't actually doubt his love for SC2. After all, it's made him moderately famous without having to commit a whole lot (aside from his time, which he seems to thoroughly enjoy).
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TB, honestly you are just wasting your time arguing with people that enjoy Winter's Stream. I never heard of him before and his viewer numbers seem kinda odd though I have watched his stream once because of the viewer numbers. His fans like any other fan of other streamers, they will defend when they want.
I think some of his views can be attributed to golden league trolling aka (old trolly destiny) and that he is a terran player.
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On June 02 2014 16:36 KlinKz wrote:
and that he is a terran player.
Random*
I'm just sad that I emailed winter once about some music and he never replied. :'(
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On June 02 2014 08:55 WinterStarcraft wrote:
TL;DR: I just sit at home and talk at internet people a lot.
TL;DR: Handwaving.
You'd be better off playing *really* dumb, not just unawares. Sorry, but you dish way too much marketing vocab here and on Reddit for me to not believe that your stream's popularity was earned in some underhanded way.
I hope at some point we get a [G] How to get featured on TL
Edited to snip quote.
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We´re three years into streaming SC2 and yet most pro´s don´t care to commentate or interact with fans. No wonder people go to other, more entertaining streams like WinterStarcarft.
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Do these numbers include dailymotion and goodgame.ru? I assume they do, but some streams on these platforms get a few thousand views I've noticed and I'm just asking to make sure.
On June 02 2014 15:42 aka_star wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 15:27 TRaFFiC wrote:On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going. It has nothing to do with being pro or not pro. What Winter does is unethical and as TB pointed out cheating. He just sits there all day on brand new accounts cheesing nubies. Who knows how many accounts he has boosted over the past year. What he does is delegitimizing the ladder and providing a bad example to the community. It's ironic that his stream is titled "learn to play sc2." What can you possibly hope to learn from watching a high master player cheese a gold leaguer? Those cheeses wouldn't have nearly as much chance of success vs someone of his level. It's like watching Gary Kasparov beat a novice in Chess. Not to mention, the way he talks shit to his opponents (not in game, but on stream) makes me sick. Over the last few months I noticed his viewer count went up about 6 times. I figure people like to live vicariously through his wins (since I imagine he never loses). I was one of the first people to give him love when he was a legit master random and I wouldn't falsely accuse him without evidence, but I can't say I like what he does. I randomly tuned in twice, each time it looked like it was some comp stomping with bm commentary. Not entertaining at all, surprised people gave him any money.
I feel the same way. I've tuned in a few times willing to give him a chance, but tuned out again very soon, no idea why so many people like him. But then again, I felt exactly the same way about IdrA and lots of people seemed to like him as well...
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so guys. Can you think for a second please? I don't know if Winter ever viewbotted. I think he was being viewbotted. But now?
Take a look around. Go on starcraft, in a group channel; on forums or on a twitch stream and ask around.
Basically everyone you will ask nowadays will probably know of Winter, right?
So even IF people hate him, the viewer numbers don't actually surprise me
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You may like Winter's stream or not, I for example don't like the constant smurfing and the attitude sometimes, but what you can't deny is that the format is appealing to alot of people (playing random, non stop commentating). Don't forget that a large part of the 1v1 playerbase is bellow Diamond, and not mentioning the music that is popular today.
Comparing for example LiquidHero, that sure he is one of the best players on the planet with an entertaining playstyle and a magician touch in micro, but he doesn't commentate (I understand it's a language barrier but still) interacts with viewers, listens to mostly Kpop that less people like, even dissapearing for random periods with a random replay playing in the background, and he is very popular relative to most Korean pros.
All I'm saying is that the quality of play is not the only thing that matters here, the presentation is also important here.
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In theory I think it's fine. Non-pro players can still entertain viewers by... well... being entertaining, whereas pro-players can focus more on providing entertainment from their competition-play.
If someone is viewbotting, then they should be punished for it, but whether or not you like someone is really irrelevant to how popular they should be able to be.
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On June 02 2014 19:04 bartus88 wrote:
Do these numbers include dailymotion and goodgame.ru? I assume they do, but some streams on these platforms get a few thousand views I've noticed and I'm just asking to make sure.
The numbers include all streams that are listed here on teamliquid.net, which do include streams from dailymotion and goodgame.ru, yes. I'm fairly certain they include all notable SC2 streams from those streaming services.
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On June 02 2014 20:21 jtype wrote:
In theory I think it's fine. Non-pro players can still entertain viewers by... well... being entertaining, whereas pro-players can focus more on providing entertainment from their competition-play.
Why not both pro-players and entertainers? There is a reason why every time MC (way too little times) streams the community goes bonkers, he is an amazing player, he plays random, he is a really funny guy, he does some hilarious blunt commentary with broken English. More streamers like him and the community would have been more alive I think.
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On June 02 2014 20:35 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 20:21 jtype wrote:
In theory I think it's fine. Non-pro players can still entertain viewers by... well... being entertaining, whereas pro-players can focus more on providing entertainment from their competition-play.
Why not both pro-players and entertainers? There is a reason why every time MC (way too little times) streams the community goes bonkers, he is an amazing player, he plays random, he is a really funny guy, he does some hilarious blunt commentary with broken English. More streamers like him and the community would have been more alive I think.
Yea of course when a player can provide both then that's great, but I think there should be room for people at either end of the spectrum.
I mean, personally, I prefer to watch high-level players that don't talk all that much, so I can have the stream muted and listen to my own music and whatnot.
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To be honest, I'm actually amazed that pro SC2 streams are as popular as they are.
What reason is there to watch a pro other than to improve your own game?
If I just want to be entertained, I definitely don't wanna watch ForGG doing the same exact build ten times in a row.
I'm gonna watch a tournament or some of the casual players with good entertainment value instead.
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On June 02 2014 20:48 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 20:35 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:On June 02 2014 20:21 jtype wrote:
In theory I think it's fine. Non-pro players can still entertain viewers by... well... being entertaining, whereas pro-players can focus more on providing entertainment from their competition-play.
Why not both pro-players and entertainers? There is a reason why every time MC (way too little times) streams the community goes bonkers, he is an amazing player, he plays random, he is a really funny guy, he does some hilarious blunt commentary with broken English. More streamers like him and the community would have been more alive I think. Yea of course when a player can provide both then that's great, but I think there should be room for people at either end of the spectrum. I mean, personally, I prefer to watch high-level players that don't talk all that much, so I can have the stream muted and listen to my own music and whatnot.
Ye, I understand. Shame that too few people are like you.
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On June 02 2014 20:57 urboss wrote:
To be honest, I'm actually amazed that pro SC2 streams are as popular as they are.
What reason is there to watch a pro other than to improve your own game?
If I just want to be entertained, I definitely don't wanna watch ForGG doing the same exact build ten times in a row.
I'm gonna watch a tournament or some of the casual players with good entertainment value instead.
Why wouldn't you like watching someone doing what they excel at; from their perspective?
If you watch a player in a tournament you might watch them play a dozen or so games, at most, if they're all shown on the same day. If you watch them stream you could watch them play upwards of 50 games, each against a different person, with a different race.
You can watch the things that they watch (to an extent), you can see exactly how they control their units and be amazed by their multitasking. If observers captured everything that even one of the players were doing in a high-level SC2 match, it would be dizzying for many. But watching a stream from one player's perspective allows you to appreciate their skills and abilities in a different way than can be shown by an observer.
It's not necessarily always better, or more educational, but certainly a valid form of entertainment.
I don't know if you watch other sports at all, but wouldn't you like to watch your favourite Football player/Racing driver/basketball player/whatever in practice where there's no real pressure to perform and they can relax, show off their skills, and try out new things without risk?
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Sure it's exciting in the beginning to see how the pros do it.
But this excitement about multitasking and unit control wears off pretty fast tbh.
Unless you want to improve your own game, there's little reason to continue watching past this initial phase.
Anyway, maybe it's just me.
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On June 02 2014 20:57 urboss wrote:
To be honest, I'm actually amazed that pro SC2 streams are as popular as they are.
What reason is there to watch a pro other than to improve your own game?
If I just want to be entertained, I definitely don't wanna watch ForGG doing the same exact build ten times in a row.
I'm gonna watch a tournament or some of the casual players with good entertainment value instead.
Just for perspective, when I'm not playing SC2 is when I like watching players like ForGG because these players' abilities are so refined, it is wonderful to watch. Purely entertaniing. It is not very useful for improving play because the margin of victory in those high-level matches is often razor-thin, it can be hard to understand what led to a game's outcome.
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I really hope Blizzard is looking at WCS numbers. They need to realize that we really need true region EU/NA/KR tournaments. Even KR has more average viewers than NA. I am sure EU will lose hard at viewers from now with ~7 kr in Ro8.
We have foreigners and koreans at every tournament and everywhere, its time to do a fucking single tournament without that (Like WCS NA/EU/KR 2012).
I really enjoy to watch GSL because there are only players with same nationality and I really hope korea can do weekend tournaments in korea with only koreans.
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I think some of you guys hit the nail on the head regarding viewer numbers for pro streams declining. The majority of the player base is very casual and they're not going to sit and watch a pro play for more than an hour (or at all). Probable reasons:
1)Through all the apm, they don't know what's going on. They'd rather have a commentator do all the work and tell them what's happening.
2)They'd rather be entertained by having someone talk to them. < That's why people like Destiny and Winter have high viewers. They're entertaining. When Destiny is having a good debate with his viewers, he gets way more viewers than when he is grinding GM in silence. Jaedong is the only pro who can pull 3k viewers and not have a webcam on.
3)The Hype factor of tournaments.
4)Less reasons to watch pro streams unless you want to improve and put in a lot of work to be like them.
5)It's hard for someone who doesn't play the game much to appreciate the skill shown by pros.
Some people still tune in to be in awe of the multi tasking, control etc. but that group is growing smaller. It's sad to me, but hard to deny.
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On June 02 2014 12:43 z0rz wrote:
I completely understand people wanting to watch someone troll at a reasonable level (see: Dragon). It's fun watching someone do something silly and actually have a great time, especially with viewer interaction. But averaging significantly more viewers than the winningest player of all time? If all of Winter's viewers are real people, this game is doomed.
I can only agree with that.
I always find those viewers numbers very sad ( assuming no bot is there ).
Smurfing to stomp gold/plat players is in no way educational or entertaining.
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On June 03 2014 07:54 TRaFFiC wrote:
I think some of you guys hit the nail on the head regarding viewer numbers for pro streams declining. The majority of the player base is very casual and they're not going to sit and watch a pro play for more than an hour (or at all). Probable reasons:
1)Through all the apm, they don't know what's going on. They'd rather have a commentator do all the work and tell them what's happening.
2)They'd rather be entertained by having someone talk to them. < That's why people like Destiny and Winter have high viewers. They're entertaining. When Destiny is having a good debate with his viewers, he gets way more viewers than when he is grinding GM in silence. Jaedong is the only pro who can pull 3k viewers and not have a webcam on.
3)The Hype factor of tournaments.
4)Less reasons to watch pro streams unless you want to improve and put in a lot of work to be like them.
5)It's hard for someone who doesn't play the game much to appreciate the skill shown by pros.
Some people still tune in to be in awe of the multi tasking, control etc. but that group is growing smaller. It's sad to me, but hard to deny.
Yeah you're honestly not wrong. The number of people wanting to improve their game has declined, SC2 is a really hard game and a lot of people have given up. Ladder numbers have slowly declined over time. It'll probably get a surge with Legacy of the Void when people get back into it, but eventually you will see the same kind of decline.
Even League of Legends has the same problem. Hotshot right now has 7k viewers. That sounds impressive, but you should remember he used to have a lot more. Doublelift is sitting on 50k, which is amazing, but imqtpie is on about 14 while TSM members generally sit around 20 give or take. Again, great numbers right? Ermm actually no not really. All it does is demonstrate that the amount of people who actually wanna watch pro-level streams is but a tiny fraction of the playerbase. Riot claims 27 million players DAILY, 67 million players monthly. I've heard numbers like 500,000 active SC2 ladder players thrown around. SC2ranks used to be pretty accurate in terms of it's tracking but right now it doesn't seem to be reporting the numbers correctly (pretty sure there are more than 10 players in SEA). The overall conversion rate in both games when it comes to players > pro-gamer stream viewers is really really low. They are very niche, limited appeal kinda things.
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On June 02 2014 15:27 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 14:35 WrexSC2 wrote:
It's a little disgusting how most people are reacting to Winter's numbers because of his non-pro status. If you are too pretentious to watch an amateur's stream then so be it, but don't act like it's bad for the SC2 scene. He provides an entertaining stream for viewers like me who don't play SC2 anymore and were never that great to begin with.
If you watch his stream for a few minutes you'd see his passion for the game is unmatched. He's the type of player that SC2 needs to keep going. It has nothing to do with being pro or not pro. What Winter does is unethical and as TB pointed out cheating. He just sits there all day on brand new accounts cheesing nubies. Who knows how many accounts he has boosted over the past year. What he does is delegitimizing the ladder and providing a bad example to the community. It's ironic that his stream is titled "learn to play sc2." What can you possibly hope to learn from watching a high master player cheese a gold leaguer? Those cheeses wouldn't have nearly as much chance of success vs someone of his level. It's like watching Gary Kasparov beat a novice in Chess. Not to mention, the way he talks shit to his opponents (not in game, but on stream) makes me sick. Over the last few months I noticed his viewer count went up about 6 times. I figure people like to live vicariously through his wins (since I imagine he never loses). I was one of the first people to give him love when he was a legit master random and I wouldn't falsely accuse him without evidence, but I can't say I like what he does.
Cheese? Do you even watch the stream? He cheeses like 1/5 games at most, and those usually in zvz where cheese is essentially standard.
I've never, ever seen him talk shit or dismiss his opponent as bad even once, and I've watched him probably ~10 hours (gameplay) total. You must not be watching the right stream.
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On June 03 2014 08:21 BoBiNoU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 12:43 z0rz wrote:
I completely understand people wanting to watch someone troll at a reasonable level (see: Dragon). It's fun watching someone do something silly and actually have a great time, especially with viewer interaction. But averaging significantly more viewers than the winningest player of all time? If all of Winter's viewers are real people, this game is doomed. I can only agree with that. I always find those viewers numbers very sad ( assuming no bot is there ). Smurfing to stomp gold/plat players is in no way educational or entertaining.
Except for bronze, silver, gold, and some platinum players...oh wait that's 70% of the playerbase.
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On June 03 2014 08:45 chairmobile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 08:21 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 02 2014 12:43 z0rz wrote:
I completely understand people wanting to watch someone troll at a reasonable level (see: Dragon). It's fun watching someone do something silly and actually have a great time, especially with viewer interaction. But averaging significantly more viewers than the winningest player of all time? If all of Winter's viewers are real people, this game is doomed. I can only agree with that. I always find those viewers numbers very sad ( assuming no bot is there ). Smurfing to stomp gold/plat players is in no way educational or entertaining. Except for bronze, silver, gold, and some platinum players...oh wait that's 70% of the playerbase.
You forget that we are all GM on teamliquid and obviously you only can learn from the best guy in the world playing on the highest lvl possible, same as real sports really...
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On June 03 2014 09:09 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 08:45 chairmobile wrote:On June 03 2014 08:21 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 02 2014 12:43 z0rz wrote:
I completely understand people wanting to watch someone troll at a reasonable level (see: Dragon). It's fun watching someone do something silly and actually have a great time, especially with viewer interaction. But averaging significantly more viewers than the winningest player of all time? If all of Winter's viewers are real people, this game is doomed. I can only agree with that. I always find those viewers numbers very sad ( assuming no bot is there ). Smurfing to stomp gold/plat players is in no way educational or entertaining. Except for bronze, silver, gold, and some platinum players...oh wait that's 70% of the playerbase. You forget that we are all GM on teamliquid and obviously you only can learn from the best guy in the world playing on the highest lvl possible, same as real sports really...
Oh snap, my bad. So silly of me.
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On June 03 2014 07:43 Dingodile wrote:
I really hope Blizzard is looking at WCS numbers. They need to realize that we really need true region EU/NA/KR tournaments. Even KR has more average viewers than NA. I am sure EU will lose hard at viewers from now with ~7 kr in Ro8.
We have foreigners and koreans at every tournament and everywhere, its time to do a fucking single tournament without that (Like WCS NA/EU/KR 2012).
I really enjoy to watch GSL because there are only players with same nationality and I really hope korea can do weekend tournaments in korea with only koreans.
I don't think that's going to help.I watch way less sc2 these days(mostly proleague) and i was one of those people saying we need actual region lock.
The game is just not that fun to watch anymore.What this game needs is the next expansion,it's pretty much the only thing that will bring a lot of people back,although if we had a couple of foreigners winning tournaments that could certainly help.
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On June 03 2014 08:45 chairmobile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2014 08:21 BoBiNoU wrote:On June 02 2014 12:43 z0rz wrote:
I completely understand people wanting to watch someone troll at a reasonable level (see: Dragon). It's fun watching someone do something silly and actually have a great time, especially with viewer interaction. But averaging significantly more viewers than the winningest player of all time? If all of Winter's viewers are real people, this game is doomed. I can only agree with that. I always find those viewers numbers very sad ( assuming no bot is there ). Smurfing to stomp gold/plat players is in no way educational or entertaining. Except for bronze, silver, gold, and some platinum players...oh wait that's 70% of the playerbase.
70% of the player base that just need 1 single advice : macro better
that is all.
No need to watch a master stomping gold to learn that I'm afraid
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EPT![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202014%2005.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202014%2005x.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/WCS%202014%2005.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8028950/TL/Proleague%20ATC%202014%2005.png)
