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Keep "my game is better than yours"-slapfights out of this. If the discussion devolves into simple bashing, this thread will be closed. |
On May 16 2014 08:01 Plansix wrote:I am now convinced that JimmyJRaynor is a janitor at Blizzard and listens in on meeting and office gossip. He clearly knows everything there is to know about the inner workings of Blizzard. Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 08:00 packrat386 wrote:
If you define sc2 as dying, there are tons of "dead" games with vibrant scenes. Quake and BW are the deadest of games.
Quake isn't dead...in fact, it's been slowly growing in Europe in Russia since 2013, and has weekly cash-prize tournaments on FaceIt.
Stop trolling.
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Mobas have plenty of strategic depth..
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On May 16 2014 08:01 Plansix wrote:I am now convinced that JimmyJRaynor is a janitor at Blizzard and listens in on meeting and office gossip. He clearly knows everything there is to know about the inner workings of Blizzard. Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 08:00 packrat386 wrote:
If you define sc2 as dying, there are tons of "dead" games with vibrant scenes. Quake and BW are the deadest of games.
I am convinced that you re a Blizzard shill.
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On May 16 2014 02:54 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 23:06 ETisME wrote:On May 15 2014 22:22 Laertes wrote:On May 14 2014 23:25 ETisME wrote:On May 14 2014 22:29 Incognoto wrote:
etisme, assuming that someone out of the blue just comes out with a completely new RTS, would you say that this RTS would be a flop? It wouldn't sell and people wouldn't play it for longer than maybe a year? This would be the case because there aren't enough people interested in RTS or because SC2 is just better than this new RTS, so people would just stick to SC2? well I can't really make any statement, a completely new RTS doesn't necessary will flop, but for there to be a whole new RTS, there must exist a market that looks profitable at the very least, won't you say? I guess what you want to argue about is that it can be just that there is no competition for SC2 and so the RTS scene looks dead? But if there is such a high demand for an alternative to SC2, I am not seeing it, despite how much complains there are. The closest is probably starbow, which has probably the most support a Mod can ever hope for (axiom+TB followers and basetradeTV) and even some of the most popular figureheads in SC2 scene streaming and promoting it but still unable to make any breakthrough in terms of viewership (take away axiom/basetrade TV followers) and even the game itself is lacking in players in general. I believe SC2 serves as a game that cater to traditional standard RTS game and it has taken up most of the market there is there already. But there might still be room for other RTS that are extremely innovative, something like CoH or DoW style, but these games are rare and even when one appear, it doesn't mean the popularity of RTS can go back to its prime years. of cause there can be still rooms for other non-SC style RTS like red alert and AoE but both have failed pretty horribly last time and I highly doubt any company will be willing to invest again anytime soon and prefer to re-release in HD remaster instead The problem is the measurement of playerbase/viewership. There are a number of factors that contribute to Starbow's nicheness. *The game is too hard for the average player, Starcraft 2 does this well but because it designs to the lowest common denominator, it means the high end is comparatively worse than Broodwar. *The Starcraft 2 fanboys don't like it on principle. It got spammed on reddit or something atrociously stupid to hate on it for and now the Starcraft 2 fanboys will downvote it without even bothering to click the link or read the thread. It's disgusting and skews how popular starbow could be. *The lines are drawn in the sand. People think its one or the other, but Starbow could be a great game to play alongside SC2. You can watch starbow when its on and it doesn't mean you are abandoning SC2 or anything like that. If we got a major tournament for Starbow with lots of pro players and a huge prize pool it could draw lots of viewership, as long as its the biggest thing going on at the time. Ultimately there are more but these are the few that really impact things. As far as I know, Artosis and tasteless streaming starbow made it to front page of the starcraft reddit, I don't see it being that hated, it just failed to make enough to actually make a switch or even try it out and stay because they like it. How would you explain starbow reddit being pretty empty then? Or even the starbow tl thread is heavily bumped in order to stay in front page. Like I said, the game already received some of the biggest support a mod can ever hope for. Starbow already has its invitational, showmatch and ladder cups. You can't blame the lack of growth for lack of tournament content either. You have innovation and impact who both are in spot light of gsl, how big of an exposure is that. You have basetradetv who can take a few hundreds or thousand viewers even when khaldor is casting. I tend to think people will choose how to spend their time most efficiently for them and that's how it worked for lol and dota. Some would play both and some would play one or another. But it isn't stopping starbow to grow either. It only makes starbow more of a competition to sc2. I don't want to talk about this anymore anyway, it's only a minor example of my point and going to derail the thread. My point was that there seems to be lacking in a demand for an alternative basic old school rts other than sc2 in the market. I fail to see how talking about this is going to derail the thread. To me it seems like you don't want your ideas challenged, but you were the one to bring up starbow so you have to defend your points. That's how it works. The Starbow Reddit is a poor example because it suffers from a vicious cycle: No one goes there so no one bothers to post there so no one goes there so no one bothers to post there. There are a lot of people who are casually interested in Starbow, but the main limiting factor is how much harder Starbow is then SC2. Noobs really see that they are bad and it bothers them, it hurts them inside. After the invitational the ladder had 30 people queueing at any one time with 109 online each night. That number dropped off because ESL had dropped Starbow mid-february and Starbow was already waning before the invitational. ESL dropped Starbow because the hype was dying down and they equated the hype with the apex, confusing raw viewer numbers with persistent viewer numbers. Finally, the starbow showmatches peaked at 30000, and the maximum prize pool was 150$ and there were only a couple of games. Most of the crowd during those showmatches left in the middle of the TvT(Most people assume mirror matches are bad and prefer non-mirrors instead). And of course Franscar was no match for Innovation, we were hoping he would take a game but honestly it is too hopeful to think that these players who are at best going to beat someone like BeastyQT and at worst going to lose to Avilo(this is only a half joke, he sucks at Starbow as well), would beat a korean BW progamer who at the top of his game was one of the best in the world.
Because the thread is about the future of rts.
if starbow has failed to even convert more than 5% of that viewership in the showmatch, I don't think thats worthy for a discussion at all for this very topic.
At the very least, the ideal future rts game would not need to use vicious cycle or hater to defend its lack in user commenting and discussion even when there are big patches out.
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On May 16 2014 08:36 PineapplePizza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 08:01 Plansix wrote:I am now convinced that JimmyJRaynor is a janitor at Blizzard and listens in on meeting and office gossip. He clearly knows everything there is to know about the inner workings of Blizzard. On May 16 2014 08:00 packrat386 wrote:
If you define sc2 as dying, there are tons of "dead" games with vibrant scenes. Quake and BW are the deadest of games. Quake isn't dead...in fact, it's been slowly growing in Europe in Russia since 2013, and has weekly cash-prize tournaments on FaceIt. Stop trolling.
Um... I think he was making a point that Quake and BW are not dead games just because they don't have the numbers LoL has.
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Oooh, game designer positions open at blizz; that is neat. I'd apply if I thought I had a chance, quite certain I don't though. It would be nice if they brought in someone new though; hopefully shape things up; though given the amount of core reworks that would be required, I'm not sure they'd be willing to do that.
How are the ai controls for modding? I remember last time I looked it seemed pretty hard to get the kind of ai customization I wanted when using sc2 to make wholly different games.
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Well I mean, how realistically could you improve a RTS game beyond the current form and keep the skill level barrier to entry the same or lower, I honestly don't see any innovations that could make RTS games easier to attract a bigger audience while keeping or increasing the strategic depth. Everybody's been trying to either take away aspects of the basic formula (resource gathering, base building, army building, army micro) or reduce the number of controllable unit.
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I think the problem here is that everyone is talking about success as if its LoL level of popularity or nothing. RTS games are not the most popular genre. They never have been, and they never will because even the simplest of RTS games are relatively complicated compared to games that are much easier to pick up and go like FPS games or sports games.
However that doesn't mean that the scene is somehow dying. There are plenty of people that play RTS games. Its not an overwhelmingly large market, but its stable and it makes money. As long as that's the case, people will still be producing RTS games.
edit: also, saying that companies will stop investing in it because its less popular is like saying people will stop investing in tennis because football is more popular. It doesn't really matter if other genres are larger than yours as long as there are people willing to pay for RTS games. The success of starcraft and re-releases of other RTS games is more than sufficient evidence that the market for RTS games still exists.
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On May 16 2014 08:44 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 08:01 Plansix wrote:I am now convinced that JimmyJRaynor is a janitor at Blizzard and listens in on meeting and office gossip. He clearly knows everything there is to know about the inner workings of Blizzard. On May 16 2014 08:00 packrat386 wrote:
If you define sc2 as dying, there are tons of "dead" games with vibrant scenes. Quake and BW are the deadest of games. I am convinced that you re a Blizzard shill.
He isn't.
source: I play dota with him.
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When you see games that have been sold more than StarCraft:
SpongeBob SquarePants 2001 20 million[90]
Guitar Hero November 8, 2005 40 million[50]
Just Dance November 17, 2009 48 million[23]
etc...
You'd really wonder why they're better sold.
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I think the future of competitive RTS is in smaller indi games,
I would encourage everyone to check out a cool browser based rts called littlewargame.
its a simple small game but still fun and I can see where a similar project could make a very ballenced and community focused game
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I don't think it can be argued that the strategic depth of MOBAs are even comparable to that of sc2.
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Once again: what is everyone's definition of success?
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On May 16 2014 09:33 darkness wrote:
When you see games that have been sold more than StarCraft:
SpongeBob SquarePants 2001 20 million[90]
Guitar Hero November 8, 2005 40 million[50]
Just Dance November 17, 2009 48 million[23]
etc...
You'd really wonder why they're better sold.
Hey man, I played spongebob. That game was pretty cool.
Anyway yeah, games that sell well are easier games for younger kids. RTS never has and never will be that. No cause for alarm.
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On May 16 2014 09:33 SlammerIV wrote:
I think the future of competitive RTS is in smaller indi games,
I would encourage everyone to check out a cool browser based rts called littlewargame.
its a simple small game but still fun and I can see where a similar project could make a very ballenced and community focused game
hahaha ty for that, this looks quite awesome :D
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The future of RTS might be warcraft3 mod clones, and that would be fine by me, there are so many differences between HoN and LoL and then LoL to Dota. I mean imagine if they allowed players to control more than one hero at a time, (insane thought, but stick with me,) and then maybe add like a starting building and maybe some smaller units spawn from said building and the ability to control those units to gather resources. Maybe take those lanes and give them branching paths and add natural expansions to mains and then
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On May 16 2014 07:39 Laertes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 03:18 Eliezar wrote:On May 16 2014 02:54 Laertes wrote:On May 15 2014 23:06 ETisME wrote:On May 15 2014 22:22 Laertes wrote:On May 14 2014 23:25 ETisME wrote:On May 14 2014 22:29 Incognoto wrote:
etisme, assuming that someone out of the blue just comes out with a completely new RTS, would you say that this RTS would be a flop? It wouldn't sell and people wouldn't play it for longer than maybe a year? This would be the case because there aren't enough people interested in RTS or because SC2 is just better than this new RTS, so people would just stick to SC2? well I can't really make any statement, a completely new RTS doesn't necessary will flop, but for there to be a whole new RTS, there must exist a market that looks profitable at the very least, won't you say? I guess what you want to argue about is that it can be just that there is no competition for SC2 and so the RTS scene looks dead? But if there is such a high demand for an alternative to SC2, I am not seeing it, despite how much complains there are. The closest is probably starbow, which has probably the most support a Mod can ever hope for (axiom+TB followers and basetradeTV) and even some of the most popular figureheads in SC2 scene streaming and promoting it but still unable to make any breakthrough in terms of viewership (take away axiom/basetrade TV followers) and even the game itself is lacking in players in general. I believe SC2 serves as a game that cater to traditional standard RTS game and it has taken up most of the market there is there already. But there might still be room for other RTS that are extremely innovative, something like CoH or DoW style, but these games are rare and even when one appear, it doesn't mean the popularity of RTS can go back to its prime years. of cause there can be still rooms for other non-SC style RTS like red alert and AoE but both have failed pretty horribly last time and I highly doubt any company will be willing to invest again anytime soon and prefer to re-release in HD remaster instead The problem is the measurement of playerbase/viewership. There are a number of factors that contribute to Starbow's nicheness. *The game is too hard for the average player, Starcraft 2 does this well but because it designs to the lowest common denominator, it means the high end is comparatively worse than Broodwar. *The Starcraft 2 fanboys don't like it on principle. It got spammed on reddit or something atrociously stupid to hate on it for and now the Starcraft 2 fanboys will downvote it without even bothering to click the link or read the thread. It's disgusting and skews how popular starbow could be. *The lines are drawn in the sand. People think its one or the other, but Starbow could be a great game to play alongside SC2. You can watch starbow when its on and it doesn't mean you are abandoning SC2 or anything like that. If we got a major tournament for Starbow with lots of pro players and a huge prize pool it could draw lots of viewership, as long as its the biggest thing going on at the time. Ultimately there are more but these are the few that really impact things. As far as I know, Artosis and tasteless streaming starbow made it to front page of the starcraft reddit, I don't see it being that hated, it just failed to make enough to actually make a switch or even try it out and stay because they like it. How would you explain starbow reddit being pretty empty then? Or even the starbow tl thread is heavily bumped in order to stay in front page. Like I said, the game already received some of the biggest support a mod can ever hope for. Starbow already has its invitational, showmatch and ladder cups. You can't blame the lack of growth for lack of tournament content either. You have innovation and impact who both are in spot light of gsl, how big of an exposure is that. You have basetradetv who can take a few hundreds or thousand viewers even when khaldor is casting. I tend to think people will choose how to spend their time most efficiently for them and that's how it worked for lol and dota. Some would play both and some would play one or another. But it isn't stopping starbow to grow either. It only makes starbow more of a competition to sc2. I don't want to talk about this anymore anyway, it's only a minor example of my point and going to derail the thread. My point was that there seems to be lacking in a demand for an alternative basic old school rts other than sc2 in the market. I fail to see how talking about this is going to derail the thread. To me it seems like you don't want your ideas challenged, but you were the one to bring up starbow so you have to defend your points. That's how it works. The Starbow Reddit is a poor example because it suffers from a vicious cycle: No one goes there so no one bothers to post there so no one goes there so no one bothers to post there. There are a lot of people who are casually interested in Starbow, but the main limiting factor is how much harder Starbow is then SC2. Noobs really see that they are bad and it bothers them, it hurts them inside. After the invitational the ladder had 30 people queueing at any one time with 109 online each night. That number dropped off because ESL had dropped Starbow mid-february and Starbow was already waning before the invitational. ESL dropped Starbow because the hype was dying down and they equated the hype with the apex, confusing raw viewer numbers with persistent viewer numbers. Finally, the starbow showmatches peaked at 30000, and the maximum prize pool was 150$ and there were only a couple of games. Most of the crowd during those showmatches left in the middle of the TvT(Most people assume mirror matches are bad and prefer non-mirrors instead). And of course Franscar was no match for Innovation, we were hoping he would take a game but honestly it is too hopeful to think that these players who are at best going to beat someone like BeastyQT and at worst going to lose to Avilo(this is only a half joke, he sucks at Starbow as well), would beat a korean BW progamer who at the top of his game was one of the best in the world. Starbow in and of itself is just mediocre. The maps were especially annoying. I guess its okay if you want a change and I have some friends that kept playing it religiously and finally stopped. The one thing I think Starbow did that should have made the Koreans notice was that they truly opened the idea up to having an official mod of the Korean pro scene. They don't like something? Just change it... You didn't like starbow, doesn't mean it was "mediocre. I think SC2 is mediocre, what makes your opinion any more valid than mine?
Where does Starbow rate on starcraft mods played? Where does StarCraft 2 rate on RTS purchases in video game history?
That's when I just say gg no re
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On May 16 2014 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 09:33 SlammerIV wrote:
I think the future of competitive RTS is in smaller indi games,
I would encourage everyone to check out a cool browser based rts called littlewargame.
its a simple small game but still fun and I can see where a similar project could make a very ballenced and community focused game hahaha ty for that, this looks quite awesome :D
Really interesting little game right there
Isn't Day9 working on something like this?
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On May 16 2014 13:42 Eliezar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 07:39 Laertes wrote:On May 16 2014 03:18 Eliezar wrote:On May 16 2014 02:54 Laertes wrote:On May 15 2014 23:06 ETisME wrote:On May 15 2014 22:22 Laertes wrote:On May 14 2014 23:25 ETisME wrote:On May 14 2014 22:29 Incognoto wrote:
etisme, assuming that someone out of the blue just comes out with a completely new RTS, would you say that this RTS would be a flop? It wouldn't sell and people wouldn't play it for longer than maybe a year? This would be the case because there aren't enough people interested in RTS or because SC2 is just better than this new RTS, so people would just stick to SC2? well I can't really make any statement, a completely new RTS doesn't necessary will flop, but for there to be a whole new RTS, there must exist a market that looks profitable at the very least, won't you say? I guess what you want to argue about is that it can be just that there is no competition for SC2 and so the RTS scene looks dead? But if there is such a high demand for an alternative to SC2, I am not seeing it, despite how much complains there are. The closest is probably starbow, which has probably the most support a Mod can ever hope for (axiom+TB followers and basetradeTV) and even some of the most popular figureheads in SC2 scene streaming and promoting it but still unable to make any breakthrough in terms of viewership (take away axiom/basetrade TV followers) and even the game itself is lacking in players in general. I believe SC2 serves as a game that cater to traditional standard RTS game and it has taken up most of the market there is there already. But there might still be room for other RTS that are extremely innovative, something like CoH or DoW style, but these games are rare and even when one appear, it doesn't mean the popularity of RTS can go back to its prime years. of cause there can be still rooms for other non-SC style RTS like red alert and AoE but both have failed pretty horribly last time and I highly doubt any company will be willing to invest again anytime soon and prefer to re-release in HD remaster instead The problem is the measurement of playerbase/viewership. There are a number of factors that contribute to Starbow's nicheness. *The game is too hard for the average player, Starcraft 2 does this well but because it designs to the lowest common denominator, it means the high end is comparatively worse than Broodwar. *The Starcraft 2 fanboys don't like it on principle. It got spammed on reddit or something atrociously stupid to hate on it for and now the Starcraft 2 fanboys will downvote it without even bothering to click the link or read the thread. It's disgusting and skews how popular starbow could be. *The lines are drawn in the sand. People think its one or the other, but Starbow could be a great game to play alongside SC2. You can watch starbow when its on and it doesn't mean you are abandoning SC2 or anything like that. If we got a major tournament for Starbow with lots of pro players and a huge prize pool it could draw lots of viewership, as long as its the biggest thing going on at the time. Ultimately there are more but these are the few that really impact things. As far as I know, Artosis and tasteless streaming starbow made it to front page of the starcraft reddit, I don't see it being that hated, it just failed to make enough to actually make a switch or even try it out and stay because they like it. How would you explain starbow reddit being pretty empty then? Or even the starbow tl thread is heavily bumped in order to stay in front page. Like I said, the game already received some of the biggest support a mod can ever hope for. Starbow already has its invitational, showmatch and ladder cups. You can't blame the lack of growth for lack of tournament content either. You have innovation and impact who both are in spot light of gsl, how big of an exposure is that. You have basetradetv who can take a few hundreds or thousand viewers even when khaldor is casting. I tend to think people will choose how to spend their time most efficiently for them and that's how it worked for lol and dota. Some would play both and some would play one or another. But it isn't stopping starbow to grow either. It only makes starbow more of a competition to sc2. I don't want to talk about this anymore anyway, it's only a minor example of my point and going to derail the thread. My point was that there seems to be lacking in a demand for an alternative basic old school rts other than sc2 in the market. I fail to see how talking about this is going to derail the thread. To me it seems like you don't want your ideas challenged, but you were the one to bring up starbow so you have to defend your points. That's how it works. The Starbow Reddit is a poor example because it suffers from a vicious cycle: No one goes there so no one bothers to post there so no one goes there so no one bothers to post there. There are a lot of people who are casually interested in Starbow, but the main limiting factor is how much harder Starbow is then SC2. Noobs really see that they are bad and it bothers them, it hurts them inside. After the invitational the ladder had 30 people queueing at any one time with 109 online each night. That number dropped off because ESL had dropped Starbow mid-february and Starbow was already waning before the invitational. ESL dropped Starbow because the hype was dying down and they equated the hype with the apex, confusing raw viewer numbers with persistent viewer numbers. Finally, the starbow showmatches peaked at 30000, and the maximum prize pool was 150$ and there were only a couple of games. Most of the crowd during those showmatches left in the middle of the TvT(Most people assume mirror matches are bad and prefer non-mirrors instead). And of course Franscar was no match for Innovation, we were hoping he would take a game but honestly it is too hopeful to think that these players who are at best going to beat someone like BeastyQT and at worst going to lose to Avilo(this is only a half joke, he sucks at Starbow as well), would beat a korean BW progamer who at the top of his game was one of the best in the world. Starbow in and of itself is just mediocre. The maps were especially annoying. I guess its okay if you want a change and I have some friends that kept playing it religiously and finally stopped. The one thing I think Starbow did that should have made the Koreans notice was that they truly opened the idea up to having an official mod of the Korean pro scene. They don't like something? Just change it... You didn't like starbow, doesn't mean it was "mediocre. I think SC2 is mediocre, what makes your opinion any more valid than mine? Where does Starbow rate on starcraft mods played? Where does StarCraft 2 rate on RTS purchases in video game history? That's when I just say gg no re
And for the record, starbow is mostly just a broodwar hipster type thing. The maps (or at least some) were pretty terrible...like vanilla starcraft season 3 terrible. The balance is quite suspect. I found nothing in it that I would prefer over starcraft 2. The maps did remind me of how bad and racially imbalanced maps in broodwar tended to be. I mean...Boxer mostly won his early tournaments on the back of maps where you could abuse terrain vs the other races with quick drop tech play.
So more than just an opinion...I definitely feel like the Starbow guys intentionally wanted to re-create some of the worst parts of Broodwar.
There were some interesting ideas they put in, but I definitely felt like they were trying to remove the best parts of starcraft 2 and add in the worst parts of Broodwar. Weird concept.
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EPT
