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Active: 1195 users

The future of RTS games

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Keep "my game is better than yours"-slapfights out of this. If the discussion devolves into simple bashing, this thread will be closed.
urboss
Profile Joined September 2013
Austria1223 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-23 08:23:21
May 13 2014 20:01 GMT
#1
Let's face it, MOBAs are showing huge success and traditional RTS games are barely produced anymore.
While I'm sure that the SC2 e-sport scene will continue to stay strong for years to come, the future also depends on the development of new titles. Concerning that, developers are more and more jumping off the RTS wagon.
I fear that Legacy of the Void will likely mark the end of an era.

So I started thinking, what could be improved on the classical RTS genre to make it more popular again?

Don't get me wrong, I love StarCraft and it is without a doubt the best game ever made.
The goal is not so much to transform StarCraft into something else, but rather to envision a new type of game that builds on elements from both StarCraft and MOBAs.
Something that could lead the way for the future of RTS games.

I guess a good approach is to take the best features from both games and merge them into something new.
So let's take a look at the advantages and disadvantages of StarCraft and MOBAs:

MOBAs:
Good stuff:
- Heroes
- Instant Action
- Team play

Bad stuff:
- Minions
- Lack of strategic depth

StarCraft:
Good stuff:
- Epic battles
- Big variety of units
- Strategic depth

Bad stuff:
- Too complicated for casuals
- Boring, repetitive phase of building stuff



One thing that I find quite lame about MOBAs is the auto-spawning of minions.
Killing ever replenishing computer controlled units makes me feel like Sisyphus and is the number one reason I don't enjoy LoL or Dota. Also, maybe I just don't get it, but MOBAs seem to be severely lacking in strategic depth. Not only that, controlling one unit at a time can get boring pretty fast if you are used to StarCraft. And let's be honest, it doesn't require nearly as much skill as StarCraft.

The thing that makes StarCraft kind of repetitive and what complicates the experience for casual players is that you have to construct buildings and take care of the economy. Unless you get the build order rignt, you are already behind. Unless you can keep your economy up, you will lose.
Even at the top level, there are long stretches of nothing much happening, where both players are just building stuff. What we are missing in StarCraft is the instant action of MOBAs.

So we are looking for a game that has a large variety of units that allows different strategies and gives us instant action, without us having to take care of economy.
We want to replace computer-controlled minions with player-controlled units. Also, we may want to add in the heroes, because it gives the players something they can identify with.

So here is how our new game may look like:

- We keep similar types of units as in StarCraft
- There are no minions
- We add in heroes that can resurrect
- There are no buildings that need to be built
- Units can be warped in at the start point (in batches)
- The warp in takes some time
- The opponent can always see what is being warped in ahead of time
- There is no economy: Gold for warp-ins increases steadily over time
- The number of players per team is fixed

Or in other words:
MOBA minus minions, plus warpable and controllable units, plus steady economy.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this! Would you want to play such a game?
Do you think it could be a missing link on the game market?
Does it have chances to become popular?

Do you have more suggestions, or completely new ideas?
Let's discuss it!
How do you think will the future of RTS games look like?



List of published RTS games:
+ Show Spoiler +

Here is a list of all RTS games since 1992 with a metascore of above 80%:
(excluding expansions)

1992 Dune 2
1994 Warcraft
1995 Command & Conquer
1995 Warcraft 2
1996 C&C Red Alert
1996 Z
1997 Age of Empires
1997 Dark Reign
1997 Enemy Nations
1997 Total Annihiliation
1998 StarCraft
1999 Age of Empires 2
1999 Warzone 2100
2001 C&C Red Alert 2
2001 Empire Earth
2001 Stronghold
2001 Cossacks
2002 Age of Mythology
2002 Warcraft 3
2003 C&C Generals
2003 Rise of Nations
2004 LotR: Middle Earth
2004 Dawn of War
2005 Age of Empires 3
2005 Empire Earth 2
2006 Company of Heroes
2006 LotR: Middle Earth 2
2007 C&C 3
2007 Supreme Commander
2007 World in Conflict
2008 C&C: Red Alert 3
2009 Dawn of War 2
2010 StarCraft 2
2012 Wargame


RTT definition:
+ Show Spoiler +

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_tactics

[image loading]

cRTS ..................... classical RTS
RTT ....................... real-time tactics



Dev Studios:
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]


Poll:
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: The RTS market is...

declining (160)
 
67%

steady (35)
 
15%

dead (29)
 
12%

exploding (8)
 
3%

growing (7)
 
3%

239 total votes

Your vote: The RTS market is...

(Vote): declining
(Vote): dead
(Vote): steady
(Vote): growing
(Vote): exploding




Related Links:
+ Show Spoiler +

Articles:
Is the RTS genre dying? - 16BitKings
Ironclad On Why RTS Is Dying
Is Change Inherently Good?
RTS - A Dying Market - Culture Mass
Is the RTS Genre Dying? - PC Gamer
Khaldor's Thoughts On the Future of RTS
The RTS is dead! - Malaysian Gamer

Reddit threads:
The Decline of RTS Games
The Future of RTS Games
The Future of Competitive RTS Games
The Future of Competitive RTS Games - Part II
How Does Reddit Feel About RTS Games?
What Is the Future of RTS Gaming?
Is Dota the Successor to the RTS Genre?



Upcoming RTS games:
+ Show Spoiler +

Meridian
Planetary Annihilation - Early Access Review
Subterfuge
Etherium
0 A.D.
Stonehearth
Universum Warfront
Legacy of the Void
Stronghold Crusader 2
Wargame - Red Dragon
Artillery's HTML5 Game
Grey Goo
CoH 2: The Western Front Armies
Blitzkrieg 3
World Zombination
Starship Corporation
UNSC Warfare
Archamon
Ultimate General: Gettysburg
Mech Marines
The Ember Conflict
Rising Generals


List of ideas mentioned in this thread:
+ Show Spoiler +

  • Improve team play maps
  • Have battles last longer
  • Reduce the amount of multitasking required
  • Introduce hero units
  • Improve the social/chat experience
  • Create a constantly changing environment that keeps players engaged
  • Speed up the initial phase
  • Create a universally accepted "BGH" mode
  • Have slower games with more time to react
  • Allow better chances for comebacks
  • Simplify unit control and UI
  • Remove the importance of well-defined builds
  • Let it have an easier learning curve
  • Make laddering less "hard work" and less stressfully competitive
  • Allow for more positional tactics
  • Eliminate the boring phases of reaching supply cap and remaxing supply
  • Make players find resources by exploring the map
  • Create two entirely different games for hardcore and casual players
  • Improve plot and writing of the single player campaign
  • Make the game free-to-play, with microtransactions
  • Make team play the default mode
  • Put less emphasis on big explosive units, more on light and fast units
  • Make the design of the units more interesting
  • Allow the players to customize their units/buildings/race
  • Make ladder games shorter (~20min)
  • Get rid of base-building
  • Let players develop characteristic playstyles / have favorite units
  • Allow players to be good at one thing and horrible at another
  • Have a LOT more different races (Civ like)
  • Place more emphasis on arcade multiplayer
  • Have a more complex resource system: food, wood, gold, gas etc..
  • Emphasize tactics with good map/unit design
  • Create a massive, large scale MMMORTS that spans the whole globe
  • Devote your resources into a revivable, upgradeable 'hero' unit
  • Make RTS games less fixated on keyboard/mouse input methods
  • Bring RTS games to other platforms (browser, mobile)
  • Avoid concentrated resource spots, spread them across the map
  • Make the game start at stone age and progress toward the future (Civ like)
  • Find better ways to select and command units / buildings
  • Let units have defensive stances, formations, inventories and loadouts
  • Have fewer units per player (less learning curve)
  • Disallow massive hard counters
  • Have upgrades for units that are mutually exclusive
  • Include early base defenses at the spawning locations to avoid rushes
  • Scouting should be less of a choice and more of a requirement
  • Make the games less of a click-orgy
  • Team games: let players control specific types of units
  • Team games: have one master strategist responsible for building stuff
  • Let AI take care of economy, let the player focus on strategy/tactics
  • Make sure that beginners only face other beginners on the ladder
  • Include diplomacy, building wonders, gaining territory
  • Remove the supply cap
  • Make the RTS genre "trendy" again
  • FFA games: On defeat, respawn as an ally of the defeater
  • Make it possible for spectators to join in the middle of a game
  • Let players start on two bases
  • Randomize the buildings/units/resources the players start with
  • Have matches with different objectives (a la Counter Strike)
  • Let players pick from units to forge their own race at the start of the game
  • Instant Action from the get-go
  • Let each unit have more space, avoid "clumping up"
  • Lessen the downtime, increase the "action time".



-HuShang-
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada388 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 20:11:08
May 13 2014 20:08 GMT
#2
I HATE heroes. That's all i'm going to say

Edit: Actually, everything you said that was bad about starcraft I disagree with. The complexity of starcraft is what makes it beautiful. Too complicated for casuals? It's only as complicated as you make it. My little brother plays starcraft, he's 8. He just makes units and fights with them and has lots of fun. What's complicated about that?
Professional Starcraft 2 Coach & Caster | Message me for more info or business proposals
Garrl
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Scotland1597 Posts
May 13 2014 20:09 GMT
#3
- Lack of strategic depth


pretty... sweeping statement you have there. You really think mobas have a lack of strategic depth?
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China8818 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 20:18:04
May 13 2014 20:11 GMT
#4
On May 14 2014 05:01 urboss wrote:
- Lack of strategic depth

I'm sure you knew you were gonna get flak for this...

I disagree with a lot of your pros and cons. I think both genres have a lot of strategic depth (dota having a bit more than LoL due to more versatile items/heroes and more complicated drafting). Hard to argue whether having hero units is a good or bad thing, the starcraft community really hated the introduction of thors in the beginning for example. Team play is a bonus, but both genres suffer from relatively stale early games. I also wouldn't say epic battles are limited to RTS games.

Creeps/minions are totally legitimate if you think of MOBAs not as MOBAs but rather lane-pushing games.
:)
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4081 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 20:12:43
May 13 2014 20:11 GMT
#5
That sounds like the most boring shit ever. Really? All you do is make units and micro them? What's the potential for strategic depth in that?
I think esports is pretty nice.
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA15736 Posts
May 13 2014 20:12 GMT
#6

- Lack of strategic depth


This may apply to league, but definitely not to dota.
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
-HuShang-
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada388 Posts
May 13 2014 20:13 GMT
#7
Basicall you want nexus wars eh? It's in the arcade
Professional Starcraft 2 Coach & Caster | Message me for more info or business proposals
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2834 Posts
May 13 2014 20:21 GMT
#8
It's a little strange that Dota's learning curve has lead multiple companies to make easier-to-learn versions (I'm not sure LoL is "easier" at a high level with how far Koreans have pushed the skill cap) like LoL, Smite, Dawngate, Heroes of the Storm, Infinite Crisis, etc., but no one's tried to make a Starcraft clone with an easier learning curve.

I'm not sure how you'd make an RTS with an easier learning curve, I'm just surprised it hasn't been attempted.
xuanzue
Profile Joined October 2010
Colombia1633 Posts
May 13 2014 20:22 GMT
#9
On May 14 2014 05:08 -HuShang- wrote:
I HATE heroes. That's all i'm going to say

Edit: Actually, everything you said that was bad about starcraft I disagree with. The complexity of starcraft is what makes it beautiful. Too complicated for casuals? It's only as complicated as you make it. My little brother plays starcraft, he's 8. He just makes units and fights with them and has lots of fun. What's complicated about that?


completely agree with you.

Valve and dota are making a lot of things right, still I only watch starcraft.

the good thing about mobas is that they are free, and they force people to play in team, so every player will try to bring his friends to the game, just to have a team. on the other hand starcraft is extremely focused on 1v1
Dominions 4: "Thrones of Ascension".
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1820 Posts
May 13 2014 20:24 GMT
#10
Tons of generalization at the beginning which makes it hard to take this serious. I agree mobas are doing well but to say SC2 is barely producing seems way false.
Gauntlet Esports
TL+ Member
nkr
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden5424 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 20:25:05
May 13 2014 20:24 GMT
#11
Things like these go in cycles. When a game is popular a lot of developers jump the bandwagon and produce mobas. League hit the scene hard 2-3 years ago and now all the games that followed are hitting the market.

Eventually the market is oversaturated with mobas (I'd say that's right about now) and developing a new one won't be worth it. Then you'll have one company innovating, creating a new hype and the cycle repeats.

There are companies with established titles that will continue to be released as long as they make a profit, such as CoD, even though the genre isn't as popular right now. HotS was released at a bad time when mobas were peaking. Hopefully LotV will be released at a time when no new scenes are growing and you'll have a new hype (if the game is good).
ESPORTS ILLUMINATI
plogamer
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada3102 Posts
May 13 2014 20:28 GMT
#12
I usually watch Starcraft 2. But this one time I was watching Dota 2, someone in my family noted that the casting had improved. So sad.

Starcraft 2 casting is often times like listening to a golf game or test cricket match. Ugh.
Blargh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1906 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 20:36:01
May 13 2014 20:30 GMT
#13
Honestly, SC2 does not have that much strategic depth. Also, the whole laning concept is not fun at all, imo. The only reason I like heroes is because I like SOME heroes. Like Cassiopeia, Ezreal, Lux, other skill-shot ones, etc. But I do not like the hero concept.

If I could ask for anything in an RTS, it would be to have more positional strategy and easy vision. Not knowing what your opponent is doing increases randomness and guessing. Also 1v1. At most, 2v2. Anything above is just annoying because if I am going to be competitive, I am going to be competitive individually, because that's the only thing I can influence.
ShiaoPi
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN2589 Posts
May 13 2014 20:34 GMT
#14
so you want Warcraft IV? :DDD
LiquidDota Staff@TW_ShiaoPi
TL+ Member
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2834 Posts
May 13 2014 20:37 GMT
#15
On May 14 2014 05:34 ShiaoPi wrote:
so you want Warcraft IV? :DDD


I think a WC4 would be much more successful than WC3, the modern audience is already very used to heroes in competitive games, that was a pretty new concept when WC3 came out.
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3325 Posts
May 13 2014 20:38 GMT
#16
Sounds like CC4, which utterly failed.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4081 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 20:51:53
May 13 2014 20:38 GMT
#17
I'd like for a mass army game like Starcraft to have a bit more casting micro. For the average viewer forming a good concave and stimming/ sieging up or popping a guardian shield isn't anything to get hyped over. When there's obvious spells being hit that make a clear visual impact it creates tension. When to armies just position and one dies that is really hard to get into when you're not aware of the complexity of the buildup to that point and the mechanical skill behind it.

Perhaps there's a point to be made that Starcraft is too complex of a game, making it hard to convey to an audience what is impressive about it. As a player you know it's hard to keep track of your army and harass, scout and keep up your macro at the same time. Covering options, hitting timings, none of these skills are obvious when you observe the game. MOBAs in comparison have a really clear point of focus and while it doesn't require the same mechanical skill as the Starcraft titles, to the average viewer it will seem more impressive in an intuitive way.
I think esports is pretty nice.
GinDo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
3325 Posts
May 13 2014 20:39 GMT
#18
On May 14 2014 05:28 plogamer wrote:
I usually watch Starcraft 2. But this one time I was watching Dota 2, someone in my family noted that the casting had improved. So sad.

Starcraft 2 casting is often times like listening to a golf game or test cricket match. Ugh.

That is why I like to watch the Korean Casters. So much energy.
ⱩŦ ƑⱠẬ$Ħ / ƩǤ ɈƩẬƉØƝǤ [ɌȻ] / ȊṂ.ṂṼⱣ / ẬȻƩɌ.ȊƝƝØṼẬŦȊØƝ / ẬȻƩɌ.ϟȻẬɌⱠƩŦŦ ϟⱠẬɎƩɌϟ ȻⱠẬƝ
imJealous
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1379 Posts
May 13 2014 20:40 GMT
#19
I think the BW/SC2 model is still very capable of producing an RTS game that can maintain mainstream popularity, its just a few small jarring things about SC2 that have kept it from being able to maintain the size of player base that it has the potential for:

- No universally accepted "BGH" mode (we have it now with the extension mods, but it came too late for most of it's target audience and there isn't a simple, highly advertised way to find such games)
- Abysmal, abysmal, abysmal team play maps!
- The way that smart-firing AI (no overkill), unit clumping from smart pathing, abilities like forcefield and fungal, and the bonus damage model in SC2 cause armies to disappear in a split second with little that a casual player can do to rebound from a mistake

Starcraft and Broodwar came out while I was in middle school and throughout my school years literally every one who played video games played Starcraft. Since SC2 has come out, every single person I played the game with growing up tried the game and ended up giving up on it for reasons that boil down to these same three points.
... In life very little goes right. "Right" meaning the way one expected and the way one wanted it. One has no right to want or expect anything.
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-13 20:43:04
May 13 2014 20:41 GMT
#20
On May 14 2014 05:38 GinDo wrote:
Sounds like CC4, which utterly failed.

lol yeah

I also hate heroes in RTS.

EDIT: base building is a key part of why i like RTS
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
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