EPTThe future of RTS games - Page 5
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Keep "my game is better than yours"-slapfights out of this. If the discussion devolves into simple bashing, this thread will be closed. | ||
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Shousan
Mexico92 Posts
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ETisME
12500 Posts
On May 14 2014 08:28 urboss wrote: I know this is the SC2 forum, but I'd love to hear from the MOBA players. How would you feel playing LoL or Dota controlling 3 units instead of one? Would that enhance the game for you? Quite a few heroes already require you to control several units. Meepo for classic example Or hero like enchantress which can control minions . | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On May 14 2014 08:28 urboss wrote: I know this is the SC2 forum, but I'd love to hear from the MOBA players. How would you feel playing LoL or Dota controlling 3 units instead of one? Would that enhance the game for you? LoL revolves too much around hitting and dodging skillshots for that to be feasible, look at the video Zealously posted on page 2, there's no way you could do all that with 3 units at once. In Dota you have illusions and multiple characters sometimes, having 3 heroes on top of those illusions and splits would be too much. Maybe it would be possible in a MOBA designed for that where abilities are simpler and more like SC2 casters than LoL/Dota heroes. | ||
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On May 14 2014 08:28 urboss wrote: I know this is the SC2 forum, but I'd love to hear from the MOBA players. How would you feel playing LoL or Dota controlling 3 units instead of one? Would that enhance the game for you? No it wouldn't. I like one hero control concept. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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shin ken
Germany612 Posts
On May 14 2014 08:31 Wombat_NI wrote: Ken did you ever consider that perhaps it was more fun because of novelty, or indeed your age that just building armies and stuff was fun and engaging for you then? I think I was 8 when BW came out, so surviving a BGH 3v3 and getting Carriers out was cool as fuck in a way NO game can really replicate for me as a (relatively) mature adult. I've thought that too, but when I play those first and second generation RTS games (Dune 2, Warcraft, C&C etc.) today, I actually get the old feeling back and that's not nostalgia. Maybe it's because just building your stuff and fighting with it feels more rewarding in those games because it was way more difficult to pull off because of the ancient UI and unit AI? That could be the magic formula to make RTSs feel fresh again. Of course not by arbitrarily complicating the interface. E.g.: You could just add some simple mechanics to make base building more "sim-cityish" and thus itself more rewarding to build a cool base . Old examples for this would be the concrete blocks from Dune 2 or roads in Warcraft 1. They had those in the games for a reason. On the AI side you could try to find a nice balance between responsive units and lifelike AI, so units feel less like robots and more like independent beings which need some extra guidance to accomplish your commands thus making the act of successfully commanding your troops already an accomplishment. Of course there's a fine line of frustation which should not be crossed concerning this style of unit AI. Funny - that's what SCBW players are advocating for years now. Although, as you can see in my previous post, I'm coming from a completely different school of thought, we still come to the same conclusion (considering unit AI). | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
Laning allows casuals to feel like they're doing something. Laning allows mid-level players to get ahead of each other through practicing last shot in order to have a resource management aspect to the game. Laning allows viewers an easy to see metric to determine which side is winning or losing. Laning allows top players free scouting and map awareness Laning is what makes MOBAs transparent. | ||
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eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
On May 14 2014 08:59 Cheren wrote: LoL revolves too much around hitting and dodging skillshots for that to be feasible, look at the video Zealously posted on page 2, there's no way you could do all that with 3 units at once. In Dota you have illusions and multiple characters sometimes, having 3 heroes on top of those illusions and splits would be too much. Maybe it would be possible in a MOBA designed for that where abilities are simpler and more like SC2 casters than LoL/Dota heroes. Ummm yes you can. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25998 Posts
On May 14 2014 08:59 Cheren wrote: LoL revolves too much around hitting and dodging skillshots for that to be feasible, look at the video Zealously posted on page 2, there's no way you could do all that with 3 units at once. In Dota you have illusions and multiple characters sometimes, having 3 heroes on top of those illusions and splits would be too much. Maybe it would be possible in a MOBA designed for that where abilities are simpler and more like SC2 casters than LoL/Dota heroes. I watched it, I have zero idea what I just saw, the casters were losing their shit though so I imagine it was cool. I don't even have time to play SC these days never mind delve into MOBAs, but I'd be interested to know why that was cool/what he did etc | ||
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StarMoon
Canada682 Posts
If you want a game that mixes RTS and MOBA elements: Warcraft 3; it spawned DotA for a reason. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On May 14 2014 09:28 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Ummm yes you can. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZNdaEM9SfI Moving a unit to a spot right next to it is not really comparable to using 4 abilities and 2 summoner spells over a large area. It's impressive with 3 marines but wouldn't be impressive with 1, do you see the difference? | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 14 2014 05:57 FeyFey wrote: Blizzard has the habit if taking away a big chunk of room when they enter a genre. Thats probably the biggest reason people avoid creating classic rts games. Because you need to deliver something damn good to not die right away, like many did when people thought it was the time to lure people away from Warcraft 3. Thats why the MMO scene turned into f2p grab all the money you can get before people go back to WoW. And the production cost has gotten to high to risk dieing right away, atleast in genres that don't have a huge player base. With the steam going down the drain there isn't even the chance for small indie devs to get enough recognition anymore. Either way the op almost perfectly described Dawn of War 2 Imo. Would have gotten bigger if the creators wouldn't have messed up the expansion pack. Came here to post the same thing. I only played DoW2 in the beta, but the team play mode for DoW2 especially, felt just like a MOBA without minions and with control of more than 1 unit. Enjoyed team games a lot actually. | ||
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frajen86
168 Posts
* Make your own extension mods/make your own custom maps if you don't like what you have now * SC2 is not a great game for an individual streaming * Ask the younger generations if they don't like SC2 for the same reasons you don't like it because they are "the future" of this genre (and other things lol) On May 14 2014 05:01 urboss wrote: So I started thinking, what could be improved on the classical RTS genre to make it more popular again? Was it ever that popular to begin with? Wasn't a big part of the Brood War success (in S. Korea) the fact that Internet infrastructure came up with PC Bangs around the same time BW came out (+LAN functionality in the game)? Coincidence+good design? Aren't there hundreds of thousands of people playing on Bnet at any given moment? (caveat, they might not be playing "RTS Melee" style but more on that later) If you're basing popularity on stream viewership, personally I think SC2 is not a great game to be streamed, from a single player's point of view. Even as an observer, it kind of reminds me of baseball (or football, mid-play). There really can only be one or two cameras on a screen at any given moment. But the action is EVERYWHERE. How many times have you watched a game where commentary focuses on a main attack while a counter-drop is happening and they don't even catch the counter until the drop is over? That being said, this is why the best commentating teams in SC2 are so fun to watch and probably why big tournaments get relatively good viewership numbers. Because there is so much action being described and shown, even if you're a newbie to the game you can still appreciate what's going on. Not taking anything away from the skill of a MOBAs. But if you're controlling 1 unit then you can focus the camera on just that unit and catch a lot of the primary action for that player. Another thing, the team element. If you're on a team talking to other people, that's interesting to read/hear. SC2 1v1 usually means you're talking to nobody. In this regard, I think team play (2's/3's/4's) in SC2 could be emphasized a lot more from a streaming point of view (not necessarily in major tournament play). OK now back to SC2 itself. There's more to the game than pure laddering. That kind of competition might produce the "highest" level of play, but there are likely thousands of people playing the free Arcade games (SC2 Starter Edition). You could say that these aren't RTS games, but who knows how many people move from the Arcade games into actual "Melee" mode? Games like "1v1 Obs Hots" are "Melee" even if they are in the Arcade. Also, the map editor for SC2 is so powerful (admittedly a little inaccessible for some) that you can pretty much build any variant of the game you want to. Even little things - don't like Enduring Locusts? You can change the ability in the editor and make your own variation. As mentioned previously, the "extension mod" idea is great, but "Custom Games" is essentially dead at this point, which is a shame, because the potential diversity of Custom Games is so amazing. I say "dead" because in my limited time in the SC2 community, it seems like no one seems to publicize or utilize extension mods, and there are rarely more than 5-10 open games in Custom (at least when I get on there). That being said, people are still figuring out ways to make things like Starbow happen, even on the Arcade. I'm not saying Starbow > SC2 or anything - my point is that you can actually CHANGE WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE ABOUT SC2 if you really want to. On May 14 2014 05:01 urboss wrote: MOBA minus minions, plus warpable and controllable units, plus steady economy. There is a custom map called "Shavashava I" that I played recently which is almost this, except without heroes, and you needed to kill units to gain economy. Maybe you can ask the maker to add some heroes : ) On May 14 2014 08:28 urboss wrote:How would you feel playing LoL or Dota controlling 3 units instead of one? Would that enhance the game for you? I play LoL and SC2. While this would be kind of fun for me, I bet the viewership would drop a little because it would start to get way more confusing to follow 5 people controlling 15 total units across the map (unless people just clumped up their units anyways, but who knows). On May 14 2014 08:31 Wombat_NI wrote: Ken did you ever consider that perhaps it was more fun because of novelty, or indeed your age that just building armies and stuff was fun and engaging for you then? I absolutely agree, I have been with 8-10 year olds playing SC2, and they honestly seem to enjoy it for the same reasons that I enjoyed Warcraft many years ago. Make an army, blow up things. Aliens (orcs) and lasers (magic) are cool. On May 14 2014 08:17 shin ken wrote: Simple things like building your base, expanding and creating your dudes has to be made fun again! Today that's the lame "work" part but back in the day even this phase was already rewarding. Maybe because you didn't had to think so much about scouting etc. but actually could just enjoy creating your army composition. Gather resources, build your stuff, command it in battle. That already was the all the fun. Not: thinking about information, mindgames, damage types, asynchronous unit balance etc. etc. that all take you away from the basic RTS experience. Disagree. Making a Barracks in Warcraft 1 is still pretty much like making a Barracks in HotS. If you get bored start clicking on a worker until it starts saying funny things. By the way, you don't need to think about anything while making units. Who was I mostly playing against back in the day? The AI (since Internet was awful slow). And if the AI didn't rush me every time I played, I could take my time enjoying sim city. Watch some SC2 bronze leaguers, clearly they are enjoying the sim-city aspect still... lol Pushing matchmade-1v1 competitive ladder on SC2 of course causes you to think about those things, because once you get beyond the basics of building stuff, if you want to win against a person you need to engage in the art of war and all that jazz. But nothing is making you do that. You can comp stomp easy AI's all day long... (not implying you are bad as a player) | ||
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CutTheEnemy
Canada373 Posts
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
The best example of any one that I know would be my friend who has played nothing but WoW, only because he couldn't find success in SC2 or any other genres of games. When HOTS (Heroes) came out, he was more than happy to play that because of how easy the game is. I hope that proves my point of MOBAs only dominate 1 sector of the E-sports market, maybe you should get past platinum in SC2, so you wouldn't have incoherent thoughts like what you have written here. | ||
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NapkinBox
United States314 Posts
On May 14 2014 10:02 frajen86 wrote: I play LoL and SC2. While this would be kind of fun for me, I bet the viewership would drop a little because it would start to get way more confusing to follow 5 people controlling 15 total units across the map (unless people just clumped up their units anyways, but who knows). It's actually a lot easier than it sounds, at least for someone who plays Dota. Does anyone remember Bloodline Champions? That game deserves to be pushed. I hope someone makes another game like it and becomes successful with it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Imagine this concept: - Each player starts with 4 control of 4 "towers". - There are 4 neutral" towers" as well spread over the map - You gain points for each time have contorl over a tower and you win when you have X amount of points. - The units you choose to battle for you (in order to gain control over) will be build automatically, but there is a decisionrelated proces to the "macro"-part. It's not mechanicalbased. - You start with a decent sized army which means action can occur after 1-2 minutes already. This way stuff can actually happen all over the map and as long as the units are welldesigned, the micro can be cool as well. Now the best part of this is that it is also suited for casuals who can choose to play it teambased and thereby split the control of units into 2 of 4 players. This way you can have a sustainable casual scene and you can have an extremely high mechanical cap for the top players who battle it out in a 1on1. | ||
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followZeRoX
Serbia1451 Posts
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frajen86
168 Posts
On May 14 2014 10:32 NapkinBox wrote:It's actually a lot easier than it sounds, at least for someone who plays Dota. Does anyone remember Bloodline Champions? That game deserves to be pushed. I hope someone makes another game like it and becomes successful with it. I am not saying it's necessarily hard, just that... In my mind, generally the more "stuff" that can be happening in a game at once, spread out across an entire map, the more difficult it becomes to watch that game (from a casual observer's point of view). From the player's point of view, it's different. | ||
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