On May 07 2014 03:30 opisska wrote: Well, TL has two options: either they can run a completely irrelevant contest with creative maps (which Blizzard will never even look at and thus they will be quickly forgotten thanks to the WCS map pool dictatorship) or an utterly boring one with some real impact. Not an easy choice.
Jeez some of you guys are a bunch of ninnies. Too much variation, not enough variety, etc. I think the reason we have so many captain standard maps is because they don't offend anyone.
On May 07 2014 07:29 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Jeez some of you guys are a bunch of ninnies. Too much variation, not enough variety, etc. I think the reason we have so many captain standard maps is because they don't offend anyone.
Check this first, this is the list of all the maps that were published here on TL
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
Probably because most tournaments lack gumption and are terrified players will freak out if they put anything other than ladder maps into their pool.
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
Probably because most tournaments lack gumption and are terrified players will freak out if they put anything other than ladder maps into their pool.
i like experimentation and new-for-the-sake-of-new as much as anyone, hell, i voted biome. i like metagame shifts as much as anyone. i understand that the lack of participation in shoutcraft bothers you because you're trying to do something good for the viewers. but it's unnecessary and kind of rude and hostile for you to insult the players and orgs who provide the content we're all here to watch by saying that they're "terrified" and insinuating that the pros are having hissy fits because they want to maximize their success and earnings in high-pressure tournaments and avoid situations where they lose to a mechanically inferior player just because that player practiced the map a few more times beforehand
you openly advertise the fact that koreans have struggled in shoutcraft due to foreign teams studying the maps and taking wins off of them for pride. and i understand that. the storyline of foreigners beating koreans is a hot button issue and something that a lot of people get excited about. but if i'm watching shoutcraft and i know a strong korean player is foundering because he didn't prepare for the map and he looks lost while playing on it, that's not something i personally find exciting. it comes off as more of a parlor trick than a community service. if you're a professional wrestler and i invite you to my backyard wrestling match with all sorts of zany made-up rules and pitfalls and gimmicks in the ring, aren't you going to say "hmm, this guy wants to take some money off of me for his buddies who already know the local rules" and think twice about showing up?
i don't blame you for what you're trying to do, but with posts like this it's like you're angry that they're not falling for the trap so you shout "cluck cluck, CHICKEN! come at us, bros!". you want to boast that they don't understand how to win at your tournament, but then you complain when they don't show up. why would they knowingly walk into an unfavorable situation? it's not the players' job to partner with you in creating a new metagame. if some players choose to do so then that's great and i applaud them, but i don't see why you have to snark and condescend to those who choose not to
On May 07 2014 05:12 fezvez wrote: I am really curious, why did the Reb Bull TLMC winner (New Polaris Rhapsody) never got played anywhere (except at RBB) whereas the second place is now a staple of tournaments (Habitation Station)
I just wonder what happened, I wanted to check if 2nd and 3rd place still have a chance
if you're a professional wrestler and i invite you to my backyard wrestling match with all sorts of zany made-up rules and pitfalls and gimmicks in the ring, aren't you going to say "hmm, this guy wants to take some money off of me for his buddies who already know the local rules" and think twice about showing up?
The wrestling comparison to the Shoutcraft tournament is a little off. It's more like this: First: "You" are a wrestler! An amateur perhaps and only with average skills, but you know what wrestling is all about and how it works. Then you invite professional players to your "backyard" for a couple of matches. And you tell them in the very beginning, that there will be "zany made-up rules and pitfalls and gimmicks in the ring" and it will be a little bit different. But they can come around any time, no charge, and check it out and make themselves comfortable with the setting. And the professional player agrees to that, but only thinks "ha, easy money, beating the crap out of this lowskiller!" and never shows up to check out the premises. And after the first match, that he looses because of the "twists" there are, he is not like "oh, damn, I have to check it out 2-3 times, so I can still beat the crap out of these lowskiller!" but he is angry and only shows up if he really has nothing else to do ... still without any real knowledge what is going on.
If you can say "cluck cluck, CHICKEN! come at us, bros!" we can discuss, but it's definitely not very nice, how it turned out!
Back to Starcraft: There were actually quite a few tournament or special matches - especially in BW - where players had to play on unknown/uncomfortable maps. These were only for "show off" most of the time, but I believe, that especially the "underdogs" actually tried to learn these maps, so that they can "boast" a win over a top-class player! Basically that's it all about in these matches!
Back to this TLMC: I can totally understand the win of Biome. People want to see more than the usual "2/4-player in symmetric corners" maps. Maybe Biome is a little "overboard" and some small "twists" would be enough, but most of "us" are not playing competitive, but for fun. And Biome seems like real fun! Checking new things out, playing "completely" different than usual ... that's what keeps us playing. We are not on the level of "ok, I have to train this build 30 times, so I get it always right and on the mark". THAT's boring! ... but if you want to be on the top you probably have to do this!
Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
On May 07 2014 17:36 Daeracon wrote: Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
On May 07 2014 17:36 Daeracon wrote: Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
This was actually a really big thing in the mapmaking community a while ago.
Really disappointed that Biome actually won as I believe the only reason it won is because it's a 5p map and because it has "testbug/dualsight like" textures. Either way, I did my write up in the other thread if you really want to know my thoughts on all the 5 1v1 maps. To be fair though, Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place, so I'm still hoping they just pick up Foxtrot since it is without a doubt the best map out of the final 5.
As for team maps, I do like Sacred Path & Preservation a lot, but since anybody who has ever watched Shoutcraft would have seen Sacred Path in action, it does seem maybe it was a little unfair since players will most likely just vote for it because they've seen it played out. Either way, I'm hoping Blizzard picks up Sacred Path and Preservation.
On May 07 2014 17:36 Daeracon wrote: Biome looks really interesting. It would be quite fun to see some games on it!
I would like to see a good map maker create a map that would make a stab at the economy system. Like make the bases with just one gas and less mineral patches but increase the amount of each to match the total to what we have now. Maybe on the map there could be a few bases to expand to with two gases or several mineral patches.
Make it more difficult to max out on a few bases forcing people to expand more and spread out the action. Big changes yes....but fun experiment.
This was actually a really big thing in the mapmaking community a while ago.
Ok, too bad I missed it then. I will see if I find some nice replays/vods of that.
On May 07 2014 22:36 SidianTheBard wrote: Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place
Blizzard doesn't have to take any of the finalists. And I don't just say that because Blizzard hasn't officially committed to anything, but also because unlike at the Red Bull TLMC, this time there was no tournament of pros playing on the finalists which means that from Blizzard's perspective, the only thing that sets the finalists apart from all other submitted maps is that the TLMC jury considers those maps to be superior in some regards. And going by the majority of posts in this thread, that jury's judgment seems not entirely uncontroversial.
So Blizzard saying "we'll use this top-three map on the ladder next season rather than some other cool map because that one didn't make the finalists" would be like saying "the TLMC jury knows better what kind of maps we want on ladder than we do ourselves" which would be really weird and stupid.
The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
On May 08 2014 00:46 And G wrote:The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
On May 07 2014 22:36 SidianTheBard wrote: Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place
Blizzard doesn't have to take any of the finalists. And I don't just say that because Blizzard hasn't officially committed to anything, but also because unlike at the Red Bull TLMC, this time there was no tournament of pros playing on the finalists which means that from Blizzard's perspective, the only thing that sets the finalists apart from all other submitted maps is that the TLMC jury considers those maps to be superior in some regards. And going by the majority of posts in this thread, that jury's judgment seems not entirely uncontroversial.
So Blizzard saying "we'll use this top-three map on the ladder next season rather than some other cool map because that one didn't make the finalists" would be like saying "the TLMC jury knows better what kind of maps we want on ladder than we do ourselves" which would be really weird and stupid.
The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
Sorry mate but you're about 2 years late. Combinations of natural and technical textures are all the rage right now. Or just use as many different looking ambiente types as possible, seems to work great too.
On May 07 2014 22:36 SidianTheBard wrote: Blizzard doesn't have to take 1st place
Blizzard doesn't have to take any of the finalists. And I don't just say that because Blizzard hasn't officially committed to anything, but also because unlike at the Red Bull TLMC, this time there was no tournament of pros playing on the finalists which means that from Blizzard's perspective, the only thing that sets the finalists apart from all other submitted maps is that the TLMC jury considers those maps to be superior in some regards. And going by the majority of posts in this thread, that jury's judgment seems not entirely uncontroversial.
So Blizzard saying "we'll use this top-three map on the ladder next season rather than some other cool map because that one didn't make the finalists" would be like saying "the TLMC jury knows better what kind of maps we want on ladder than we do ourselves" which would be really weird and stupid.
The Red Bull TLMC was a proving ground. TLMC4 was a popularity contest. I had planned to use this to my advantage by submitting an entirely beach-themed map, but my plan was discovered and the map didn't make the finalists because the TLMC staff was afraid it would be getting all the votes. At least that's what I'm convinced happened, because otherwise I'd surely have won this contest.
A little butthurt much? Many maps didn't make it simply because they had a minor or major design issues that broke the map. Many maps would have made it if there was a 'correction' period in which TL strat came back to mapmakers of maps that had minor issues, and let them fix those issues. However, as a result of the small time window, there was no time for such a thing. Thus, we have a group of finalists that just got it right the first time. So, I will say that this TLMC was a bit sloppy, yet the idea of TLMC is still young, and things are bound to happen that will lead to future changes. Overall though, better to have a TLMC than no TLMC at all.
EPT
