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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 12 2014 06:35 Skynx wrote: Jin Air would be superawesome... plz plz esports gods let $o$ and Dear play in the same team. I guess, almost everyone would be satisfied if it's not IM/MVP/YoeFW :D But JinAir.Dear would be sick, considering that they're close with sOs. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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pajoondies
United States316 Posts
On April 12 2014 08:06 Musicus wrote: Seems like the change in management was part of why it didn't last longer. https://twitter.com/ManagerWake/status/454751754090184704 https://twitter.com/ManagerWake/status/454752676761583616 https://twitter.com/ManagerWake/status/454753011710320640 thanks so much for posting this! also, how can anyone believe that it was decided BEFORE he dropped to code B? the guy was wearing their team jacket during the matches, would he have really done so if he knew he had been dropped from the team prior to his games? makes no sense to think that, seems like mouz scummed him pretty hard | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On April 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote: mouz went all-in on Dear, hiring a coach and a translator to accomodate him and dropping Mana. Booting him after only a few months is stupid and the blame lies with mouz, not Dear. If you're willing to go through all that to get a big name player like Dear, you better be prepared to let him adjust. mouz wasn't prepared to and now they have not only lost their by far best player, their reputation took another hit. I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote: I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. TB said it well: On April 12 2014 05:26 TotalBiscuit wrote: You would make a terrible team manager. Hey guess what, SC2 is inconsistent. The vast majority of players cannot maintain form over an extended period of time. GSL champions frequently slump immediately afterwards and it takes a while to return to form. If all you do is buy players at their peak, not only do you end up with a shitty expensive team but you look like a moron when you are suddenly surprised that they don't perform as well as you expected afterwards. Players have ups and downs. It's your duty as a team manager to help them get out of their slumps and provide the support structure needed to return to form. Or you could be a piece of shit and drop your players after 3 months because you're not rolling in tournament winnings and sponsorship dollars. Oh no, you couldn't buy your way to the top, what a tragedy. Forgive me if I shed no tears for any organization that does that. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote: I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote: I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. He was in Ro16 of Code S, barely not going into Ro8 from hardest group since famous Group B year ago and was 2nd on ASUS ROG and even in Katowice, he wasn't eliminated in first round as HyuN or Liquid' HerO for example. Hard to say that it's not performing, but if mouz expected that Dear will roll like he did in 2013 Fall whole 2014, sorry, mouz, you're dumb then. On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. Sick <3 If Impact wins Global Championship it will be even more sick. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote: I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. They threw Mana who was face of mouz for years away just to pick up Dear. Now they don't have Mana and Dear, but Starbuck, Hasuobs and Vortix are way better players for marketing than Mana and Dear for sure. It makes no sense to dump guy who was considered as new mouz main player after 3 months of "slump" which is > all mouz players achievements at same time in summary | ||
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
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rikapi
United States63 Posts
(I'm basically in agreement with most of yalls for teams on the Korean front!) Though I also have this wishful thinking that CM Storm wants to invest in a Protoss to have a player from all 3 races... XD | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote: I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On April 12 2014 11:18 rikapi wrote: I'd think, given there's room on the roster, that Acer (they seem solid on management of their Koreans, even through slumps) or Axiom (any chance, TB?) would be good places for him, especially if he wants to keep entering tournaments outside of Korea. (I'm basically in agreement with most of yalls for teams on the Korean front!) Though I also have this wishful thinking that CM Storm wants to invest in a Protoss to have a player from all 3 races... XD We can't afford what someone of that calibre should be paid, plus frankly we don't need anymore players with GSTL being dead and buried. Another Protoss wouldn't benefit the team house, maybe another zerg but that'd be it at most. | ||
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lantz
United States762 Posts
However, Vortix (just showed he's as good as any korean) and Hasuobs definitely overperforming and doing awesome in tournaments, so mouz decides they don't need an expensive Korean that is only a bit better than their EU players. Mouz was not doing so well not so long ago... so they thought let's fix our team and take a risk with a korean... All this shows is Mouz is a complete DICK of a team and has buyer's remorse. Too bad this isn't just a blip in someone's bank account, but hurts a real person's life. | ||
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Yorkie
United States12612 Posts
On April 12 2014 11:33 TotalBiscuit wrote: We can't afford what someone of that calibre should be paid, plus frankly we don't need anymore players with GSTL being dead and buried. Another Protoss wouldn't benefit the team house, maybe another zerg but that'd be it at most. I'll just drop the Kangho hint one more time and walk away...No but seriously the way you explained your rationale with signing/keeping players is just so perfect. All those players are lucky to be on a team like Axiom | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 12 2014 11:37 lantz wrote: If Vortix, Hasuobs, and the rest of the team were underperforming, TRUST ME Dear would NOT have been cut. However, Vortix (just showed he's as good as any korean) and Hasuobs definitely overperforming and doing awesome in tournaments, so mouz decides they don't need an expensive Korean that is only a bit better than their EU players. Mouz was not doing so well not so long ago... so they thought let's fix our team and take a risk with a korean... All this shows is Mouz is a complete DICK of a team and has buyer's remorse. Too bad this isn't just a blip in someone's bank account, but hurts a real person's life. what? Dear a bit better? lol. Check out Vortix's recent matches then if you haven't. Only part I agree with is the underlined parts. | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
I wonder if this firing wasn't just a mistake game-wise, but a mistake that is affecting the whole brand of mousesports negatively. At least for me and probably for many other people, mousesports lost lots of reputation with this move. I couldn't agree more with all said above. SC2 is an inconsistant game and players need time and trust to bring good results. | ||
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