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On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On April 12 2014 03:05 johnbongham wrote:
Screw blaming the team. Dear probably wanted a ridiculous salary which mous decided was worth it for a top level player. The player than proceeded to be absolutely terrible and not at all worth the money he was being paid compared to the domestic EU team members > he gets dropped.
Shoulda coulda woulda kept his top-form. Being a pro ain't easy. You want a payday? Show some results - especially if you don't stream/show any personality. mouz went all-in on Dear, hiring a coach and a translator to accomodate him and dropping Mana. Booting him after only a few months is stupid and the blame lies with mouz, not Dear. If you're willing to go through all that to get a big name player like Dear, you better be prepared to let him adjust. mouz wasn't prepared to and now they have not only lost their by far best player, their reputation took another hit. I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it.
Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then?
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On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On April 12 2014 03:05 johnbongham wrote:
Screw blaming the team. Dear probably wanted a ridiculous salary which mous decided was worth it for a top level player. The player than proceeded to be absolutely terrible and not at all worth the money he was being paid compared to the domestic EU team members > he gets dropped.
Shoulda coulda woulda kept his top-form. Being a pro ain't easy. You want a payday? Show some results - especially if you don't stream/show any personality. mouz went all-in on Dear, hiring a coach and a translator to accomodate him and dropping Mana. Booting him after only a few months is stupid and the blame lies with mouz, not Dear. If you're willing to go through all that to get a big name player like Dear, you better be prepared to let him adjust. mouz wasn't prepared to and now they have not only lost their by far best player, their reputation took another hit. I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then?
While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops)
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On April 12 2014 21:51 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 13:02 NovemberstOrm wrote:
Teams in korea that need a Protoss currently: StarTale, Prime, Samsung Galaxy, and maybe KT.
Would be fine with seeing Dear play on any of those teams in Proleague. It's like 4 months back :D Inb4 Dear joins Planetkey Dynamics with Oz and everyone will be like - "Wat".
Sure why not. Planetkey Dynamics is nothing but a marketing vehicle for selling grey market cd key. They along with many other such sites have been aggressively pushing out marketing to gamers lately through twitch streamers and progamers, even Khaldor is advertising for a cd key site. I've had offers from 5 separate companies in the last week who do it. They have plenty of money and want to spend it.
Unfortunately these companies also operate questionable business practices. One of the biggest, g2play was recently found selling Humble Bundle keys, they were effectively engaging in piracy having acquired large numbers of those keys for 1 cent each and then trying to sell them for much more. CD key sites are shady, but they do turn a big profit.
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United States23455 Posts
On April 12 2014 22:11 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On April 12 2014 03:05 johnbongham wrote:
Screw blaming the team. Dear probably wanted a ridiculous salary which mous decided was worth it for a top level player. The player than proceeded to be absolutely terrible and not at all worth the money he was being paid compared to the domestic EU team members > he gets dropped.
Shoulda coulda woulda kept his top-form. Being a pro ain't easy. You want a payday? Show some results - especially if you don't stream/show any personality. mouz went all-in on Dear, hiring a coach and a translator to accomodate him and dropping Mana. Booting him after only a few months is stupid and the blame lies with mouz, not Dear. If you're willing to go through all that to get a big name player like Dear, you better be prepared to let him adjust. mouz wasn't prepared to and now they have not only lost their by far best player, their reputation took another hit. I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then? While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops)
Jaedong is performing rather poorly as well. That being said, what you mentioned about marketing is true.
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United States97274 Posts
Maybe Alliance will pick up Dear to replace Naniwa
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 12 2014 22:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 21:51 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 12 2014 13:02 NovemberstOrm wrote:
Teams in korea that need a Protoss currently: StarTale, Prime, Samsung Galaxy, and maybe KT.
Would be fine with seeing Dear play on any of those teams in Proleague. It's like 4 months back :D Inb4 Dear joins Planetkey Dynamics with Oz and everyone will be like - "Wat". Sure why not. Planetkey Dynamics is nothing but a marketing vehicle for selling grey market cd key. They along with many other such sites have been aggressively pushing out marketing to gamers lately through twitch streamers and progamers, even Khaldor is advertising for a cd key site. I've had offers from 5 separate companies in the last week who do it. They have plenty of money and want to spend it. Unfortunately these companies also operate questionable business practices. One of the biggest, g2play was recently found selling Humble Bundle keys, they were effectively engaging in piracy having acquired large numbers of those keys for 1 cent each and then trying to sell them for much more. CD key sites are shady, but they do turn a big profit.
I just want him to have freedom and conditions to train hard, seems like PD in that case gave Oz ability to travel + Proleague practice, so it won't be worst choice for Dear.
Big profit.
On April 12 2014 22:19 Shellshock wrote:
Maybe Alliance will pick up Dear to replace Naniwa
And re-ignite NaNiwa as well, i won't be surprised if Alliance picks him back as they said in their statement if he's ready to comeback.
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On April 12 2014 22:18 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 22:11 Blargh wrote:On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:On April 12 2014 03:05 johnbongham wrote:
Screw blaming the team. Dear probably wanted a ridiculous salary which mous decided was worth it for a top level player. The player than proceeded to be absolutely terrible and not at all worth the money he was being paid compared to the domestic EU team members > he gets dropped.
Shoulda coulda woulda kept his top-form. Being a pro ain't easy. You want a payday? Show some results - especially if you don't stream/show any personality. mouz went all-in on Dear, hiring a coach and a translator to accomodate him and dropping Mana. Booting him after only a few months is stupid and the blame lies with mouz, not Dear. If you're willing to go through all that to get a big name player like Dear, you better be prepared to let him adjust. mouz wasn't prepared to and now they have not only lost their by far best player, their reputation took another hit. I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then? While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops) Jaedong is performing rather poorly as well. That being said, what you mentioned about marketing is true.
Jaedong performing poorly rofl. Jaedong and poorly. Two words which should never be in the same sentence. I wonder what was happening last night when he was smashing nerds left and right at the top of the KR ladder.
There is a huge luck factor in sc2. Just because he's not winning every tournament he's not performing badly.
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On April 12 2014 22:55 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 22:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 12 2014 22:11 Blargh wrote:On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
mouz went all-in on Dear, hiring a coach and a translator to accomodate him and dropping Mana. Booting him after only a few months is stupid and the blame lies with mouz, not Dear. If you're willing to go through all that to get a big name player like Dear, you better be prepared to let him adjust. mouz wasn't prepared to and now they have not only lost their by far best player, their reputation took another hit. I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then? While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops) Jaedong is performing rather poorly as well. That being said, what you mentioned about marketing is true. Jaedong performing poorly rofl. Jaedong and poorly. Two words which should never be in the same sentence. I wonder what was happening last night when he was smashing nerds left and right at the top of the KR ladder. There is a huge luck factor in sc2. Just because he's not winning every tournament he's not performing badly.
LADDER is not equal to tournament. Innovation was rank 3-7 KR GM for about a year now but just got into code s after 2 seasons, so is patience rank 6-10 but we rarely get to see him past ro16 in almost any tournament. the ladder Jaedong and tournament jaedong are literally polar opposites.
+ Show Spoiler +so far in 2014: ro4 cologne
can't get past open bracket for katowice
can't get past Ro32 AM
lost to cannons
lost to pylons
lost to more pylons
made swarmhosts
|
On April 12 2014 22:55 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 22:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 12 2014 22:11 Blargh wrote:On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 03:09 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
mouz went all-in on Dear, hiring a coach and a translator to accomodate him and dropping Mana. Booting him after only a few months is stupid and the blame lies with mouz, not Dear. If you're willing to go through all that to get a big name player like Dear, you better be prepared to let him adjust. mouz wasn't prepared to and now they have not only lost their by far best player, their reputation took another hit. I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped. Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then? While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops) Jaedong is performing rather poorly as well. That being said, what you mentioned about marketing is true. Jaedong performing poorly rofl. Jaedong and poorly. Two words which should never be in the same sentence. I wonder what was happening last night when he was smashing nerds left and right at the top of the KR ladder. There is a huge luck factor in sc2. Just because he's not winning every tournament he's not performing badly.
he didnt win any tournament except that asus something and house something aka two of 2000 random foreign tourneys, his 2014 has been a trainwreck and he didnt even compete in Korea, he lost to Has I mean who the hell is has? Does that read 'poorly' to you?
meanwhile two ex-EGs are doing awesome lol
|
On April 12 2014 23:04 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 22:55 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 12 2014 22:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 12 2014 22:11 Blargh wrote:On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:
[quote]
I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped.
Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then? While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops) Jaedong is performing rather poorly as well. That being said, what you mentioned about marketing is true. Jaedong performing poorly rofl. Jaedong and poorly. Two words which should never be in the same sentence. I wonder what was happening last night when he was smashing nerds left and right at the top of the KR ladder. There is a huge luck factor in sc2. Just because he's not winning every tournament he's not performing badly. LADDER is not equal to tournament. Innovation was rank 3-7 KR GM for about a year now but just got into code s after 2 seasons, so is patience rank 6-10 but we rarely get to see him past ro16 in almost any tournament. the ladder Jaedong and tournament jaedong are literally polar opposites. + Show Spoiler +so far in 2014: ro4 cologne
can't get past open bracket for katowice
can't get past Ro32 AM
lost to cannons
lost to pylons
lost to more pylons
made swarmhosts
I don't think they are polar opposites. The difference is on ladder if you lose to a few cheeses, you can recover the points. It's a best of whatever you want.
The whole idea that JD is choking in these tournaments getting second place I think is ridiculous. I mean, fine, show me where he is making huge mistakes and throwing it away. He's playing his best games and it just so happens you don't always win. That's the nature of the beast.
On April 12 2014 23:11 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 22:55 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 12 2014 22:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 12 2014 22:11 Blargh wrote:On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:
[quote]
I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped.
Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then? While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops) Jaedong is performing rather poorly as well. That being said, what you mentioned about marketing is true. Jaedong performing poorly rofl. Jaedong and poorly. Two words which should never be in the same sentence. I wonder what was happening last night when he was smashing nerds left and right at the top of the KR ladder. There is a huge luck factor in sc2. Just because he's not winning every tournament he's not performing badly. he didnt win any tournament except that asus something and house something aka two of 2000 random foreign tourneys, his 2014 has been a trainwreck and he didnt even compete in Korea, he lost to Has I mean who the hell is has? Does that read 'poorly' to you? meanwhile two ex-EGs are doing awesome lol
Has is one of the best Chinese players out there. If you look at wcs America, the Chinese have proven to be serious contenders. Like I said, sc2 is luck based. On any given days, there are dozens of players who could take a series off the best player in the world. It doesn't surprise me. There are way more undiscovered players out there who could do the same.
|
On April 12 2014 23:11 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 22:55 TRaFFiC wrote:On April 12 2014 22:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 12 2014 22:11 Blargh wrote:On April 12 2014 21:56 BarneyNapalm wrote:On April 12 2014 11:51 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 11:32 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 12 2014 09:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On April 12 2014 09:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2014 08:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:
[quote]
I disagree, when you sign someone you should do a test run first that everything goes as planned. Dear played really poorly recently, and likely isn't worth what he's being paid, so I don't really see the issue of having him dropped.
Obviously he's in a tough situation with him falling out of Code A and being team less, but that's his fault for not performing. That may sound harsh, but that's the life of a progamer. Absolute bollocks. So lemme tell you the one person we did a "test run" with. Impact. We signed him to a 3 month test contract. He had no results, only a handful of VoDs for us to even look at. We had the recommendation of Coach Ryu and a bit of background on his personality thanks to the State of Play documentary, along with Soulkeys belief that he had promise. I felt guilty as hell not committing to him and only took that decision because I had very little information to work with. We signed him for double what WJS were paying him. He did not show results in GSTL during those 3 months and he failed to advance in Code A. You would have fired him. I didn't. Now he is in the GSL World Championship. 3 month form means dick. You do not sign WCS champions to 3 month contracts. It's cowardly, it shows no commitment to the player, nor any trust in him. That lack of trust can and will undermine a player. We have no idea if that's what he was signed to or if Mouz was able to terminate the contract under a clause, because Mouz has deliberately concealed the actual reason for his firing. I'm sorry but from my perspective, I'd never run a team like that. When you sign a player you commit long-term and that's the only way you get and deserve the loyalty of that player. Should I have shitcanned Ryung who has been slumping far longer than Dear? Not in my eyes and I'm glad I didn't, he will come back into form because his team is showing trust in him and helping him to get to that point. What about Alicia? He bombed at ASUS ROG, we spent a lot of money to get him there and he failed. Should we have fired him then due to underperformance? No, because that would be stupid, Starcraft careers are long and so are slumps. If we hadn't had faith in him he wouldn't be RO4 WCS right now, standing alongside an entire lineup of players who Mouz apparently would have fired due to underperformance as would you and other people on this forum if you were actually managers. Those players crushed some of the best in the world to get there. Yeah forgive me if I think those people are short-sighted and would have more success if they actually committed to building players long-term rather than tried to buy their way to the top and then discarded players that didn't produce immediate results. I hope the reasoning behind his firing comes out, because I'd like to actually believe that Mousesports is not the kind of organisation that would treat players like trading cards and that they had good reasons for what they did. I agree with you Totalbiscuit, and no doubt, I would prefer if more teams behaved like that. You listed stories of successes of slumping players to me, however I can find arguments for many players that never came out of their slumps. Looking at Teamliquid, Zenio never became a star, and Nony could never regain the glory he showed at the end of the BW TSL era. I think that all the Korean's on EG underperformed for what was initially expected. Puma is the main one, and I think Oz and Revival played quite poorly during their time on EG as well. Just because the player tasted glory doesn't mean they will ever return to it. On top of that, Mouz put a lot into this pick-up, and maybe that was a mistake. Take your team TB, if you had one or two slumping players, you usually had someone pretty skilled that can keep the team name alive for the time being. But if Mouz pays Dear a huge salary, hire two employees just for his, etc... The pressure is on him to perform, and I think that seasoned veterans need to be capable of handling such pressures. Of course other factors can be at play such as voice of sponsors, the change in management, personal conflicts, unreasonable negotiations, it's really hard to say because we don't have perfect information. I respect you a lot as a team owner TB, but I don't think it's that preposterous or evil of Mouz to dump Dear under certain circumstances. Anyway, good luck Dear. That Maru Dear rivalry was a nice one. Did you really just say Puma under performed on EG? The guy won an NASL, an IEM, picked up 2nd's at IEM WC, DreamHack Winter, and 3rd's at am IEM and Assembly. Guy wins close to $100k on EG and he under performs. And Oz and Revival? What majors did they win pre or post EG? None. They had their best showings as EG players. And considering EG signed them for PL, I think they exceeded expectations. To answer the statement about Puma, EG released Puma because he was under performing. Check their statement about it. Shouldn't EG release most, if not all of their current SC2 squad then? While everyone except Jaedong is performing rather poorly (and maybe Huk?), the rest of the crew don't really need to so long as they market EG's sponsors well. Incontrol, for instance, has enough character and marketing skills that he is probably one of EG's best players. Of course, Jaedong is good too. Most Koreans do not really do anything to sell their sponsors like a foreigner does (though there are Acer ads of Innovation/MMA holding Acer laptops) Jaedong is performing rather poorly as well. That being said, what you mentioned about marketing is true. Jaedong performing poorly rofl. Jaedong and poorly. Two words which should never be in the same sentence. I wonder what was happening last night when he was smashing nerds left and right at the top of the KR ladder. There is a huge luck factor in sc2. Just because he's not winning every tournament he's not performing badly. he didnt win any tournament except that asus something and house something aka two of 2000 random foreign tourneys, his 2014 has been a trainwreck and he didnt even compete in Korea, he lost to Has I mean who the hell is has? Does that read 'poorly' to you? meanwhile two ex-EGs are doing awesome lol
I don't think you can excuse your ignorance by asking "who the hell is Has". If you don't know him, you're not trying hard enough.
And @ the above, Has is Taiwanese not Chinese.
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I look at WCS AM and I saw top8 Korean so whats the deal with those chinese/taiwanese whatever? Also I was saying his 2014 has been terrible, stop sleeping on his 2013 kong mode.
I don't think you can excuse your ignorance by asking "who the hell is Has". If you don't know him, you're not trying hard enough.
And @ the above, Has is Taiwanese not Chinese.
Like 90% of teamliquid only gets to know Has after he hilariously cheesed out JD, no?. Why should I try to know this random dude anyway? All I care to know is hes a random dude who cheesed out JD and would probably disappear in coming months. Funny how you try to defend JD's horrible 1st round defeat by trying to validate his apparently random cheesy opponent. Plz defend his IEM exits too
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On April 13 2014 02:14 Arceus wrote:I look at WCS AM and I saw top8 Korean so whats the deal with those chinese/taiwanese whatever? Also I was saying his 2014 has been terrible, stop sleeping on his 2013 kong mode. Show nested quote +I don't think you can excuse your ignorance by asking "who the hell is Has". If you don't know him, you're not trying hard enough.
And @ the above, Has is Taiwanese not Chinese. Like 90% of teamliquid only gets to know Has after he hilariously cheesed out JD, no?. Why should I try to know this random dude anyway? All I care to know is hes a random dude who cheesed out JD and would probably disappear in coming months. Funny how you try to defend JD's horrible 1st round defeat by trying to validate his apparently random cheesy opponent. Plz defend his IEM exits too
I'm not trying to defend anything or anyone. Laugh my fucking ass off at your misguided and ignorant assumptions.
All I'm saying is, if you don't know Has then it's your own fault. And you should "try to know him" because you're the one who's saying he's a nobody. I don't think 90% of TL explicitly said that he's a nobody, which is why I'm calling you out, you don't get to use the defense that others are in the same boat because they're not.
tl;dr you're wrong, do your research before spouting unsubstantiated shit.
P.S. Has owned the shit out of MarineKing not a week ago, 4-1.
But I'm done arguing with people who clearly have no idea who's good and who isn't, so feel free to foam at the mouth and pretend that you're somehow right about this.
People who don't follow the game closely enough should not have the right to say things like these, especially when they act like they know anything lmao.
User was banned for this post.
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I don't understand why MasterOfPuppets was banned for the previous post.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 14 2014 10:10 chaos021 wrote:
I don't understand why MasterOfPuppets was banned for the previous post.
He was not banned for that specific post but rather a large selection of similarly unpleasant posts. However, if you have questions about moderation you should take them to Website Feedback and not this thread.
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Well, if they wanted an all EU team, why pick him up in the first place? Makes no sense to drop easily the best player on the team. Oh wait that's right, Mousesports wants a team of crappy EU players. Dear will be in Kespa and Proleague soon enough, I can see Prime dropping State and picking up Dear within the next few weeks.
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On April 15 2014 06:01 BVRHNT3R wrote:
Well, if they wanted an all EU team, why pick him up in the first place? Makes no sense to drop easily the best player on the team. Oh wait that's right, Mousesports wants a team of crappy EU players. Dear will be in Kespa and Proleague soon enough, I can see Prime dropping State and picking up Dear within the next few weeks.
"Crappy EU players" VortiX made RO8 WCS EU, HasuObs narrowly missed out on qualifying for IEM Katowice through an incredibly stacked Open Bracket. I wouldn't call that crappy, at all. The fact you think Prime are even capable of signing Dear is actually quite laughable, a player of Dear's calibre would require a much larger salary than pretty much every Prime player currently.
That and the fact that if you look at the PL roster changes, aLive, Oz and hyvaa were free agents and would all be a big boost to a lacking Prime team and yet didn't go to Prime heck Oz went to some unknown EU team sponsored by a cd key company. The only addition they have to their roster is Leenock, who is there as part of a partnership with yoe Flash Wolves so wouldn't be on their payroll. Prime aren't rolling in filthy KeSPA riches, why else do you think they're re establishing their online store?
But then again, the more I read your post, the more I see that you have some kind of intense dislike of foreigners. Unless you have some kind of strange insider knowledge of Prime it's unlikely they're going to drop State, we've seen him once in PL where he got cheesed by Classic and he was visibly nervous, season 1 of GSL? He narrowly missed out on qualifying for Code A. He's already more accomplished than a few of the Korean players on Prime in my eyes.
That aside, yes it sucks that Dear was dropped not long after he joined and even Wake, who worked so hard on getting his signature seems upset with it too but there are plenty of other foreign teams who have more experience when it comes to having Koreans on the roster who hopefully will find the funds to sign him, give him a good practice environment and help him out of his slump.
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On April 12 2014 22:19 Shellshock wrote:
Maybe Alliance will pick up Dear to replace Naniwa
It's an EG subsidiary, Dear is not enough of a Personality. He'll need to BM some people on stream, make whiny blogs and troll the forums a bit before his application can be considered.
Really though, it would not surprise me in the least if EGlliance decided to just say "screw SC2" and focus on Dota, where they pull huge numbers and actually, you know, win stuff. It's either back to Korea as a lower level player or something like Acer.
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the timing seems to be a little unfortunite though
best of luck in the future
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I usually eat at Maoz for lunch
but I have not been there this entire week .
Don't support them!!
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EPT
