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On April 12 2014 01:37 Scones wrote:
To quote my Psychology exam, correlation does not equal cause and effect ^_^
Do you seriously believe that is the case in this study?
I strongly doubt that age and motor skills are independent of each other.
Nice study, I'm not confident with the error bound given the nature of APM in games but I'm sure in a larger sample population the same would be the case.
Thanks for the great work.
Are you an actuary or just someone that likes statistics?
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Someone forgot to tell that to Daigo.
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I don't understand why people who play SC/video games would start slowing down at 24, but professional athletes don't hit their peak until about 27 (MLB players). I think there are some cultural and psychological aspects not really being accounted for.
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I can completely attest to this. I have been playing Starcraft for 4 years now and from where I started compared to now, I am much, much slower compared to when I started and compared to when I used to play other competitive games. It definitely takes a much more conscious effort for me to play and keep up with what is going on.
I am 29, Masters Protoss, about 140 APM is my limit. I am sure this is easy to shrug off if you haven't experienced it, but I most definitely have and it's a crappy feeling.
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On April 12 2014 01:56 GrapeApe wrote:
I don't understand why people who play SC/video games would start slowing down at 24, but professional athletes don't hit their peak until about 27 (MLB players). I think there are some cultural and psychological aspects not really being accounted for.
Here's a proposal: the skills are different. The things you need to be good at to be a world-class baseball player are not the same skills as those you need to be a world-class SC2 pro, and they develop differently. It's actually the case that some skills in baseball peak earlier than 26-27 as well, like defense and throwing velocity.
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Personally I am just turning 20 and every year I find starcraft less important. I have kept my passion, but as I have matured I have found my performance in video games be less relevant. I no longer find myself turning on my game mode after school and put my 110% focus on a video game. I don´t even know if I can get so hectic about a good game as I did a couple years back when I used to game past mid-night on almost every single weekend.
I like to think that the study neglects the fact that it is much easier to get serious about a game like Starcraft when you are in your late teens or early twenties than when you are getting close to thirty.
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Good article. I may have overlooked it but your methods never really described how you used the data for analysis and results were confusing to me.
Specifically your first and second research question. You stated that "it appears that there is age-related slowing of looking-doing responses, but that this decline is not ameliorated by level of expertise."
You are comparing how fast the player can react to what he or she sees to their overall mechanical understanding of the game. Assuming I am talking about high level players, If age related decline does effect the player, it would most likely be very very very very mild and have little effect on their overall performance. A player should not have to compensate for their latency by reducing their normal actions to increase mechanical efficiency. The latency decline would be too minor, and that is to say there really is a noticeable decline at all.
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On April 12 2014 01:57 Magnet wrote:
I can completely attest to this. I have been playing Starcraft for 4 years now and from where I started compared to now, I am much, much slower compared to when I started and compared to when I used to play other competitive games. It definitely takes a much more conscious effort for me to play and keep up with what is going on.
I am 29, Masters Protoss, about 140 APM is my limit. I am sure this is easy to shrug off if you haven't experienced it, but I most definitely have and it's a crappy feeling.
This could also attest to any lifestyle changes that may have happened over the past few years. Maybe you have other things that you give more attention to or your focus has changed. The list could go on and on. Although I am not saying you are wrong, I just have a personal doubt that your "age related decline" could become so significant over just a couple of years. Your conscious effort is devoted somewhere else.
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Seems to me that unrelated to physical capability you are always going to find a downward trend in speed related to age in esports when you do a research like this.
People are less motivated to play games intensively once they reach at a certain age. There's a few reasons for this. One: esports is incredibly tough mentally and most people just can't keep up the same level of intensity. Two: you need to start thinking about other options in life. Less motivation leads to lower APM.
There are also other possibilities to explain a speed discrepancy such as the youngsters of our scene growing up with trying to be fast. If in 2006 one kid of the age of 7 schools himself to have an high APM, and one guy who is 16 does the same, then, if all else is the same, in 2014 guaranteed the 15 year old will be faster than the 24 year old. Because gaming and esports are still new things the older you are the more likely it is you started at a later age.
Whether or not slowing down at these specific ages is related to physics I'm not convinced about.
Similarly in response to some posts in the topic I don't think examples of individuals getting faster is relevant at all. There are pretty much unlimited variables that can explain this for an individual.
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I don't know about 26 but age brings some problems in terms of dedication, drive, time and skill. If you don't try to train yourself and do something casually(playing games for instance), you can feel the degradation of "speed" and increase in decision making, oversight and experience. 28 here and it is quite obvious I rely on more "seeing" than doing" comparing to early 20's.
In addition I was far more accurate in writing with keyboard before. Sigh, I guess I am an old geezer now. 
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On April 12 2014 02:11 Keithstone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 01:57 Magnet wrote:
I can completely attest to this. I have been playing Starcraft for 4 years now and from where I started compared to now, I am much, much slower compared to when I started and compared to when I used to play other competitive games. It definitely takes a much more conscious effort for me to play and keep up with what is going on.
I am 29, Masters Protoss, about 140 APM is my limit. I am sure this is easy to shrug off if you haven't experienced it, but I most definitely have and it's a crappy feeling. This could also attest to any lifestyle changes that may have happened over the past few years. Maybe you have other things that you give more attention to or your focus has changed. The list could go on and on. Although I am not saying you are wrong, I just have a personal doubt that your "age related decline" could become so significant over just a couple of years. Your conscious effort is devoted somewhere else.
I understand that argument but in this case it isn't true. I play Starcraft more often and more intensely than I had in the past. I can feel myself working as hard as I can and be in much worse spots in the game than what I would expect after so much time.
When I first started playing, I was slower/worse because I just didn't understand the game and didn't understand what was important. Now I understand every important aspect of the game, after having played regularly for 4 years with no breaks. When I call on my speed and need to get several things done at once, I just can't do everything I need or want to, wheras in the past that was no problem. The clear distinction is knowing what needs to be done but just not being fast enough to be able to do it. Any sort of intense micro situation I am bound to screw up because I just can't control units like I used to, either.
The other aspect of this is fatigue. Even my 5th consecutive game is far worse executed than my first. My first game I usually easily win over my opponent because I have all my energy, but even just a few games later I am much worse and can't properly execute even the simplest builds.
Either way, about 6 months to a year ago I distinctly remember myself getting ridiculously slow and it made me not want to play anymore. Getting even 100 APM was challenging and it was hard to find ways to still play at a level that I expected out of myself. I have worked pretty hard the last while to improve that but I am clearly fighting my body's aging process and it's pretty obvious.
Like I said, it's easy to shrug off if you've never felt it before, but I have and it's definitely a real thing.
I should also mention that in regards to having more responsibility, etc, etc, I actually have less responsibility right now than when I started. I don't have kids or anything, had a wife the entire time, all that good stuff. It's not a matter of being less interested in the game, either. It's just the simple natural fact that at this age you just can't do the things you used to, both physically and mentally. You won't know unless you consistently do something really challenging throughout your late 20's and feel that decline for yourself.
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On April 12 2014 01:56 GrapeApe wrote:
I don't understand why people who play SC/video games would start slowing down at 24, but professional athletes don't hit their peak until about 27 (MLB players). I think there are some cultural and psychological aspects not really being accounted for.
It's a fair point, but it seems like you are comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing reaction time in SC to overall career performance in basketball.
It's possible, likely in my view, that pro SC players peak sometime after 24. Because they can still be gaining knowledge about the game, improving LAN performance, they can still increase their LDL, even as age begins to take it's toll. Their experience and knowledge can be more valuable than a younger players raw speed.
Remember also (it's part of the paper, but people seem to be missing it) that people compensate by adjusting their play style. Older Platinum players are slower, on average than younger Platinum players, but they are all still in platinum.
The main take-home message of the paper, in my view, is that age-related changes are basically always happening (parts of the brain are still developing at 24yrs), and we have to constantly adjust our play to compensate for a changing set of skills and capacities.
Adapting to the constant changes within yourself is what wins the day.
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Great work on this study, I enjoyed the read.
I noticed that your introduction got a bit defensive when it came to SC2's legitimacy as an expertise task. Have you run up against much resistance among peer reviewers to using this dataset in the stuff you've published so far?
Also...
the sample includes 3276 males and 29 females, so no generalizations here will be extended to the latter population lol
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Interesting study, but like other people are mentioning, I think there are just too many other factors to actually make an ultimatum as such.
It's kind of generally accepted that people in their early/mid 20's have the highest bodily advantages, but an advantage is simply an advantage. a 50 year old who has not spend their entire life over stressing their hands/wrists/fingers, they would be able to come over and train themselves to have just as high of an APM.
If you've overstressed your body, your body is going to suffer in that region over time.
Anyways, I think that this study is pretty correct, but should be taken with a grain of salt. We kind of already knew that this information was true, it's pretty common sense, but hearing that someone took the time to scientifically back it up is nice.
In the end though, none of this matters. The important thing is the situation and condition of the individual.
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I think there are too many variables to come to the conclusion you have, but thank you for the research nonetheless.
For example, I find it intersting that 24 is the age where we see this slowing since that coincides pretty closely with the age where people start to leave college and get a job (typical bachellors taking 4-6 years to complete here in the US), and also typically have to start taking care of all the things that come with being an adult (Rent / bills / insurance / ect).
Having less time to play makes a huge difference; my replays of my games from MLG last year (When I was arguably at my peak) put me at 170-190 apm, but my more recent replays put me at 110-130 apm (and with much slower response times as well) just because I haven't been able to play much in the past 6 months or so, and when I have found time I haven't been playing with the mentality of improving but with the mentality of enjoying myself.
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On April 12 2014 01:37 Scones wrote:
To quote my Psychology exam, correlation does not equal cause and effect ^_^
How does this apply to this result ?
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On April 12 2014 02:05 Frex wrote:
Personally I am just turning 20 and every year I find starcraft less important. I have kept my passion, but as I have matured I have found my performance in video games be less relevant. I no longer find myself turning on my game mode after school and put my 110% focus on a video game. I don´t even know if I can get so hectic about a good game as I did a couple years back when I used to game past mid-night on almost every single weekend.
I like to think that the study neglects the fact that it is much easier to get serious about a game like Starcraft when you are in your late teens or early twenties than when you are getting close to thirty.
Did you notice that they do not actually claim that skill level decreases, just that the speed is, so your objection completely misses.
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Eh, not exactly sure how they come to the conclusion that skill declines with age just because a good portion of the older players are slower. Seems to me like they kinda just scratched the surface on the irl interferences like work, family etc. pp. and shrugged it off to a certain extent.
As long as even 40+ year old guitar players like Petrucci or Broderick (among a ton of others) can shred faces off, flying across 7-strings, playing 16th triplets at 200 bpm, while keeping track of the song, the rest of the band members and both the fretting and picking hand, I think I will be fine as long as I can spend quality time in games practicing.
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Seems like this paper completely ignores factors outside the game.
One could probably show how little age is a factor by using the same methods with progamers only.
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The amount that people "slow" as they get older is so small it's irrelevant. Look at all the piano greats that still play the hardest songs imaginable well into their 70s. Their hands are still flying across the keys, so I wouldn't let this aging dissuade you at all.
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EPT
